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Debate on the Dalai Lama
December 5, 2008
11:13 pm
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Here's the thread I said I'd make for debating on the Dalai Lama. I cover all the basics here so its a long post.

What or who is the Dalai Lama? From Wikipedia (bold and italics, mine):

The Dalai Lama is the spiritual and political leader of the Tibetan people according to Tibetan Buddhism. Often referred to simply as "His Holiness" (HH), or "His Holiness The Dalai Lama", Tibetans usually call the Dalai Lama by the epithets Gyalwa Rinpoche, meaning "Precious Victor", or Yishin Norbu, meaning "Wish-fulfilling Jewel." "Lama" (meaning "teacher") is a title given to many different ranks of Tibetan Buddhist clergy.

The Lama is believed to be the current incarnation of a long line of Tulkus, or Buddhist Masters, who have become exempt from the wheel of death and rebirth. These ascended masters have chosen of their own free will to be reborn to this place in order to teach humanity.

For a refresher, here is the definition of reincarnation from Wikipedia:

Reincarnation, literally "to be made flesh again", is a doctrine or metaphysical belief that some essential part of a living being (in some variations only human beings) survives death to be reborn in a new body. This essential part is often referred to as the spirit or soul, the "higher" or "true" self, "divine spark", or "I". According to such beliefs, a new personality is developed during each life in the physical world, but some part of the self remains constant throughout the successive lives.

The current Dalai Lama is Mr. Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th reincarnation of the original Dalai Lama. The original Dalai Lama is Avalokitesvara. From Wikipedia:

Avalokitesvara ( lit. "Lord who looks down") is a bodhisattva (enlightenment-being) who embodies the compassion of all Buddhas. He is one of the more widely revered bodhisattvas in mainstream Mahayana Buddhism.

Here's an interesting story about

Avalokitesvara:

The thousand arms of Avalokitesvara

Avalokitesvara with 1,000 arms, part of the Dazu Rock Carvings at Mount Baoding, Dazu County, Chongqing, China.One prominent Buddhist story tells of Avalokitesvara vowing never to rest until he had freed all sentient beings from samsara. Despite strenuous effort, he realizes that still many unhappy beings were yet to be saved. After struggling to comprehend the needs of so many, his head splits into eleven pieces. Amitabha Buddha, seeing his plight, gives him eleven heads with which to hear the cries of the suffering. Upon hearing these cries and comprehending them, Avalokitesvara attempts to reach out to all those who needed aid, but found that his two arms shattered into pieces. Once more, Amitabha comes to his aid and invests him with a thousand arms with which to aid the suffering multitudes.

Many Himalayan versions of the tale include eight arms with which Avalokitesvara skillfully upholds the dharma, each possessing its own particular implement, while more Chinese-specific ones give varying accounts of this number.

(Note the a statue of

Avalokitesvara with his 1000 arms)

So in short: the current Dalai Lama i.e. Tenzin Gyatzo is the 14th reincarnation of Avalokitesvara who:

  • once had his head split into eleven pieces (where's Advil when you need it?)
  • was awarded 11 heads to hear the cries of humanity's suffering (and one for playing X-box Live 360 - just kidding)
  • was rewarded with a thousand arms (and was promptly offered a job in a shoe factory where he was able to achieve a superhuman record of tying 500 shoelaces every second)

When we refer to the Dalai Lama, we're usually talking about Tenzin Gyatzo.

So, now that I have the basics covered for the Dalai Lama and who he is, the question is: Is the Dalai Lama a person of integrity and a symbol of peace and harmony or is he a sham and a fraud or neither?
Also, was Tibet under the rule of the Dalai Lamas a great place of peace and harmony as we would think?

Here are a few relevant links. Some have been repeated for convenience:

Controversy 1: Tolerance and the Dalai Lama

One of the controversies has been that Tenzin Gyatzo (the current Dalai Lama) banned people in Tibet from practicing the worship of Shugden, a diety in Tibetan Buddhism considered to be "either a transcendent or a worldly Dharma Protector, or a malevolent spirit" - depending on which Tibetan Buddhist you're talking to. From the Wikipedia section on the controversy:

Buddhist Monks Protest Ban on Shugden Religion
Protest Calls for Religious Tolerance

Philadelphia-- Approximately two hundred protesters marched down the Avenue of the Arts and around City Hall after the Dalai Lama's speech on July 15th. The protesters were demonstrating against the Dalai Lama's policies regarding the Shugden religion. They called for religious tolerance and an end to the ostracizing of Shugden worshippers.

The Western Shugden Society, who organized the march, is opposed to the Dalai Lama's ban on the practice of Dorje Shugden Buddhism in Tibet. The decree to ban this particular division of Buddhism was proposed by the Dalai Lama on March 30th, 1996. The Dalai Lama has since said that he does not plan to change the status of the ban.

The Dalai Lama has said in one of his quotes:

"The antidote to hatred in the heart, the source of violence, is tolerance."

For this issue my question is: Does the Dalai Lama adhere to the principles of tolerance that he preaches?

-----------

Controversy 2: Tibet under the rule of the Dalai Lamas

Were the Dalai Lamas fair and compassionate rulers in Tibet? Here's a few bulleted facts Wikipedia says about Tibet:

  • "The government of the Dalai Lamas, a line of Tibetan spiritual leaders, nominally ruled a large portion of the Tibetan region at various times from the 1640s until its incorporation into the PRC in the 1950s."
  • Serfdom is the socio-economic status of unfree peasants under feudalism, and specifically relates to Manorialism. It was a condition of bondage or modified slavery which developed primarily during the High Middle Ages in Europe. Serfdom was the enforced labor of serfs on the fields of landowners, in return for protection and the right to work on their leased fields.
  • Serfdom in Tibet controversy: "Judicial mutilation - principally the gouging out of eyes, and the cutting off of hands or feet - was formalized under the Sakya school as part of the 13th century Tibetan legal code, and was used as a legal punishment until being declared illegal in 1913 by a proclamation of the 13th Dalai Lama." (link) *

------------------------------------

*: This link/information refutes the theory that China is behind any anti-Dalai Lama material

-----------

So this ends the starting post.

Given the information above, what do you think of the Dalai Lamas?

December 5, 2008
11:34 pm
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Guest,

I have to say this post is very informative. Give's a lot of fact's, and leads to many questions.

As I said, don't want to or care to debate it one way or another. However, well written, and feel you put your reserch down in order for people to understand very well.

Will again say it doesn't make a differance to me... who or what people believe or don't believe. But I'm proud of you for really putting your words down the way you have here.

Peace to you, Healing and Peace

Happy Debating...

December 5, 2008
11:59 pm
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Healing, thanks - yea, I feel good about this post. I feel I covered the important basics.

December 6, 2008
1:37 pm
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Obviously, having sex is healthy and something good. Here's some stuff from the web I compiled to support this. These are all quotes from the web:

10 Surprising Health Benefits of Sex (WebMD.com)

Sex does a body good in a number of ways, according to Davidson and other experts. The benefits aren't just anecdotal or hearsay -- each of these 10 health benefits of sex is backed by scientific scrutiny.

  1. Sex Relieves Stress
  2. Sex Boosts Immunity
  3. Sex Burns Calories
  4. Sex Improves Cardiovascular Health
  5. Sex Boosts Self-Esteem
  6. Sex Improves Intimacy
  7. Sex Reduces Pain
  8. Sex Reduces Prostate Cancer Risk
  9. Sex Strengthens Pelvic Floor Muscles
  10. Sex Helps You Sleep Better

Good sex everyday, keeps doctors away (link)

Even for those who lose their temper or are always in a depressed state of mind, 'sex' can be the solution.

There have been several notions stating that 'sex' produces certain hormones that bring happiness, which lead to a fit body and a healthy mind. Shedding some light on this, Dr. Sanjay Chugh, specialist on sexual issues, states, "Sex contributes to general good health. Any sexual intimacy that is enjoyable and pleasurable promotes well being by providing several physical and psychological benefits. It is believed that sex boosts chemicals in the body that protects us against diseases. Research also suggests that sex and masturbation can help ease joint and muscle pain, combat depression, promote heart health and lengthen one's life span."

Dr. Samir Parikh, clinical physiatrist adds, "The basic fact is that a good sex life also means in a larger picture, a good relationship with one's partner and this makes the partner happier, less stressed and by virtue of that physically healthier."

Not just this, sex also accelerates blood circulation and one's basic metabolic rate, which further enhances the well-being of our mind and soul and helps us calm down.

On these emotional benefits, Dr Chugh adds, "A satisfying sexual relationship strengthens the bond between couples, making them feel secure and loved. The feeling of emotional connectedness adds to ones sense of belonging, which in totality helps them achieve a positive physical, psychological and spiritual state that is necessary for one's general health."

So its obvious and we know that sex is a positive activity which has many benefits. The Dalai Lama goes against all science and common sense and discourages people from having sex. He says:

The Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual and temporal leader, on Friday said sex spelt fleeting satisfaction and trouble later, while chastity offered a better life and "more freedom."
"Sexual pressure, sexual desire, actually I think is short period satisfaction and often, that leads to more complication," the Dalai Lama told reporters in a Lagos hotel, speaking in English without a translator.

He said conjugal life caused "too much ups and downs.

"Naturally as a human being ... some kind of desire for sex comes, but then you use human intelligence to make comprehension that those couples always full of trouble. And in some cases there is suicide, murder cases," the Dalai Lama said.

He said the "consolation" in celibacy is that although "we miss something, but at the same time, compare whole life, it's better, more independence, more freedom."

Who here is brave enough to disagree with the Dalai Lama? Some suggest silence means agreement *wink*.

December 6, 2008
7:07 pm
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Guest,

Huh.. you won't get any arguement from me on this either. I agree 100% and could even ad more benefits that sex gives.... and health reasons as well why sex is good.. No great.

Not to mention the emotional, spiritual, and physical bond that two people in love share in their relationship through sex as well.

So no debating this either... for me I guess.

Peace and Healing

December 6, 2008
8:41 pm
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Glad you agree with me Healing.. thanks!

December 7, 2008
8:34 am
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No argument here either. Almost a no brainer really. I'm enduring a bout of voluntary celibacy at present & frankly, it sucks! lol

December 7, 2008
10:07 am
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So my point is - if the Dalai Lama is so wrong on something so basic, which he is: what does that say about his take on everything else about life?

December 7, 2008
3:48 pm
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Guest,

This was kind of what I meant, he (Dalai Lama) believes something totaly off of what you belief or I believe, that is obvious but does it matter. You know what I'm saying, some people faithfully believe what their spiritual teachers or what their religion teach's them without question but that is alright as long as it doesn't effect you or anyone else that feel Dalai Lama's beliefs are not what they believe at all. We know the benefits of sex, making love, two people sharing physical pleasure with each other, spiritually, physically, and emotionally, but some prefer not to engage at all. However, that is their right to see it otherwise. Personally I totally disagree with many of the teachings but they just don't effect me because I don't think I'm right or their right, just don't feel the same way, so I don't pay much attention to them. I do enjoy reading the insights because it is what you get out of them that matters, some of them I couldn't ever agree with, some I could agree with but most likely on a differant level then what was meant by them.

So as long as you don't happen to fall in love with or think your going to have sex with a faithful Dalai Lama follower, this too wouldn't effect you. You know what I'm saying, to each their own basically. That's how I look at anyway, as long as Dalai Lama doesn't force his beliefs on me, I'm all good, and I do truly feel that some of the insights have some good common knowledge that sometimes we seem to forget.

This again isn't a debate on my part just wanted to kind of share what I feel. Your a good person I can tell, and I admire your directness.

Now if you could only be even partially as direct in this new relationship that you posted about and let her know how you feel, and the possibility of a relationship between the two of you. I have three adult son's and two adult daughters and the one thing I really tried to teach them was that if they feel strong positive feelings towards someone to let that person know, because most likely that person is feeling the same towards them. Just thought I'd throw this in, to give you another way to look at this young lady you've been thinking about and asking the "how's" and "now what" quetions about. Most women are taught to wait until the man makes the first gesture, or to wait until the man expresses his feelings towards her. This isn't always but most of the time a women respects a man that can express his feelings, even if they aren't mutually as strong yet it is still apprecaited, and sometimes that is all it takes for the relationship then to be allowed to grow on her part, or for her to show her openness to the possibilty of the relationship growing. Not good at all to say your going to do something then not do it, no matter what kind of relationship, you wouldn't do that in a business venture would you.

Healing and peace

December 7, 2008
11:29 pm
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Healing, ofcourse its prople's right to not want to have sex and to thikn whatever they want to think.

My point is: by a lot of people, Dalai Lama is looked up to with regards to what the right thing to do is. People depend on him. I couldnt care if my neighbour was having sex with an imaginary friend and I wouldnt take it seriously, but if he was globally famous for teaching others the "right way to live", then I would take it seriously.

We have two alternatives: Living a celibate life, or having sex. One option is better. Scientists say having sex is better.

This means, Dalai Lama is wrong.

>> I totally disagree with many of the teachings

Interesting. I would like to know examples of these teachings and why you disagree with them.

For the rest of your reply, I replied on my dating thread.

December 9, 2008
1:54 pm
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Guest,

Like I stated before, I really don't like to debate other people's beliefs. They are theirs, and wheather I agree with them or not doesn't matter. I respect others beliefs, and only can say what I believe with all my heart. None of what I believe came from what I was taught, or from the way I was brought up. It's just that I have all the proof I need for me, to believe in what I do. I would never try to force my own beliefs on anyone. As that is part of my belief, that everyone has a right to believe what they choose to... I have no right to judge anyone else, and won't if someone finds me judging others, I would prefer if they brought it to my attention. Just like when I wrote on Tez's page to you, to be nice... I didn't want to judge you for saying anything at all, but I kind of did just by writing what I did.. so for that I'm sorry. Your a good man, and you have a lot going for you. I just don't want to get into what I don't agree with in regard to other beliefs.

Healing and Peace,

December 10, 2008
10:47 am
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Healing, being non judgemental and accepting people whether they believe in bananas or gods - thats ok, yea. But in this case when truth and false hood needs to be separated, then I gotta be like that and evaluate everything.

Reminder for everone, once again - the Dalai Lama is the 14th reincarnation of some guy named Avalokitesvara who was reported to have 11 heads and a 1000 arms.

What if the guy grew 1000 penises instead of arms. That would be funny.

I really have to make a blog about all this and expose this Dalai Lala crap for all to see. Maybe it'll be by winter holidays crap.

Here's the thing: when someone makes you think they know more about life than you, it keeps you down. When that someone has things about them which are funny or just downright wrong (serfs in Tibet), then it becomes even more important for people to know the truth. These people are out there to market their religion and their pomp and glamour. He's no different from Muhammed the prophet who also had followers.

So yea. I hope I'll make a blog about this. It shouldnt be hard.

December 10, 2008
10:48 am
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oops, typo: "Maybe it'll be my winter holidays project."

December 10, 2008
12:15 pm
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Guest,

I understand what your saying, and exposing.. and your so right Truth is important and it is something that I truly appreciate in life.

I don't want to even think of ever seeing a man with 1000 penises.. that would be more gross then funny.. lol your sense of humor is too funny.

Peace bud.

Healing and peace

December 13, 2008
4:11 pm
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May I ask you when if ever I said that I had blind faith concerning the insights of the Dalai Lama? I will not defend my spiritual beliefs with you or anyone, however I do believe in a Power greater than me. I choose
to live by faith and it has served me well so far. I cannot change your mind nor can you change mine. I do however agree that all the happiness we ever need comes from within. Yes I do feel that at times I may speak wisely but that only comes from life's experiences I have been through.I learn each and everyday and I pray that I always stay open so I may grow each day also. Hope this answers your question and may I add this. Have you ever loved someone or something to the depts of your soul? Have you ever seen a baby born, or seen the peace on an old person's face when they are near death and are convinced they are going to their reward. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself....whats this all for, whats this all about, I would be hard pressed and saddened by the thought that this is all there is, and if it is and I am wrong, then dont you feel we should try to spread a little joy around while we are here?
Love in recovery, Peace4all

December 13, 2008
4:15 pm
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And by the way I am humbled by God and his powerful gifts given to us.
Take what you like and leave the rest
Peace to you on your journey.........
Love in recovery, Peace4all

December 13, 2008
5:44 pm
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This is so confusing to move conversations in the middle of a thread. It's hard to follow. Why can't it stay on the thread it originated on?

December 13, 2008
6:13 pm
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Hey Peace4all,

When you say this on the Dalai Lama insights thread- "Guest I will not debate my beliefs on this thread with you. I will however post on your thread."

I mean, isn't that just a more insidious way of manipulating someone off a thread? I think so. It doesn't actually say get the hell off this thread, but redirects the conversation. Pulling him out of the main room - into a closet? Geez. Seriously, if I want a zen garden type of thread, I would not expect to find it on LIBS, or even support at AAC. I think insights are insights. They will speak to some and will not to others. Whether or not they remain intact depends on the reader. If the insights get lost somehow, the reader is getting distracted by the disagreements. Short attention span?

There are other sites. For reading this is a good one. http://www.bamboointhewind.org.....uotes.html

There is also Bellaonline for buddhism only discussions. Also Beliefnet, a massively huge site for all religions, denoms, etc, is divided into categories.

December 13, 2008
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hi Healinh, thanks.

peace4all, well, this:

>> May I ask you when if ever I said that I had blind faith concerning the insights of the Dalai Lama?

Did I say that? Sorry if I did, although I dont remember saying that.

>> Have you ever stopped to ask yourself....whats this all for, whats this all about, I would be hard pressed and saddened by the thought that this is all there is, and if it is and I am wrong, then dont you feel we should try to spread a little joy around while we are here?

So.. you would disagree with Richard Dawkins probably too because he spends his time criticing religion. its not like that. When someone sees something wrong being done or said or followed or believed, they will naturally want to speak out. They dont have to be criticized for not wanting to spread enough love.

Really though - you have no thoughts on what I wrote in the first part of the thread? You're afraid of upsetting anyone who believes in the Dalai Lama, thats what it is. I understand. However you're upsetting me now to keep quite and instead spend time spreading love around. Hm, although dont worry, I'm not upset. Just sayng though. I wanna hear what you think about the 1000 armed Buddha! please :). Say it.

December 14, 2008
2:41 am
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Hey G_

"Here's the thing: when someone makes you think they know more about life than you, it keeps you down."

This is not true for me. I bet you there are millions of people that think they know or DO know more than me. Well, maybe only hundreds!! I can't live my life being down about that. Lordhamercy, how could I go on? How could I ever learn anything?

I have been thinking about that telling statement. Do you resent a person that has more knowledge or wisdom than you do because you feel that it keeps you down? Do you feel that arguing or deconstructing someone that you believe thinks they know more than you will help you NOT to feel down? Is this possibly a battle you fight within yourself, and, from time to time, outside yourself?

December 14, 2008
2:25 pm
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hi bevdee, I guess I didnt word it correctly. I knew I wasnt when I was writing it. My own boss, he's a guy that inspires me and so many other people and I know they know more about life than me and I'm thankful to have met them.

What I did mean was something like this:

- The basic problem in all human psychology is low self-esteem i.e. the feeling that we are not enough; We are not OK as we are.

- Along comes the idealist teachings of religions who basically tell people they are never good enough. Buddhism says you can never be good enough until you reach that Nirvana stage. On top of that, they sometimes give advice which teaches people to kill their desires and instincts (anger) instead of teaching them to validate and how to deal with it.

And this man, he thinks he's some re-incarnation of some original Dalai Lama and he's the holy man and he knows everything. Thats never true. The follower knows they can never be as good as the Dalai Lama.

All these things keep the person down and they're basically simply unable to feel that they are OK as they are and that, they are enough as they are.

It really matters who is giving this advice. We wouldnt listen to them if they were a serial killer. Now I ask myself, how is this whole thing different from motivational speakers and role models in society who are admired by everyone? Are they are also doing the same and making people feel they're not good enough? I'd say no. First, they show people that they got where they are through hard work and that they're just human like us. Dalai lama, nope - he's some holy man. We can never be like him. We can only try.

In all of these religions, you have a central authority figure that people know they cannot measure up to and never be like them. I believe it keeps a person down. Thats what I meant ... yes.

December 16, 2008
4:46 pm
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More stuff to refute Dalai Lama's beliefs on sex where he says celibacy is better than sex.

Sex Better Than Money for Happiness -WebMD.com

- "That's not to say that being financially poor but sexually active is the secret to a happy life."

- "After analyzing data on the self-reported levels of sexual activity and happiness of 16,000 people, Dartmouth College economist David Blanchflower and Andrew Oswald of the University of Warwick in England report that sex "enters so strongly (and) positively in happiness equations" that they estimate increasing intercourse from once a month to once a week is equivalent to the amount of happiness generated by getting an additional $50,000 in income for the average American."

Gonna make that blog about Lama some day and put this all in one place.

December 18, 2008
2:47 am
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Guest,

This is from your site:

Is'nt this website created by the Chinese government?

You might want to fix the typo.

Hey, how can you debate people on that site?

BAM

December 18, 2008
9:57 am
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I fixed the typo and some other stuff. There's no way to debate for now. I feel I've done enough by already giving a site link. The site coordinator might not even like that oops. For that reason I left no contact information on the site. There's a guestbook but hm, it requires you to create an account and login which I know people hate doing so I left it out. Its real easy to make a simple site like that, that thing did everything for me. It was just like writing in Microsoft word.

January 5, 2009
11:09 pm
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Here Guest_guest - I've bumped the thread you started. I've even copied your post of 5-Jan-09 from The Dalai Lama Insights Thread to this thread where it belongs. Let's see if anyone is interested in responding.

"My personal problems arent relevant here. If they are, then so should be the case for Anna Louise Strong, Michael Parenti and others. I shouldnt be held to a different standard than these guys.

What about serfdom and slavery in Tibet and the hundreds and thousands of serfs who suffered under the hand of Dalai Lamas? What about the torture equipment and those who suffered because of it? What is the exact 'context' of those hot brands, whips, noses which had been cut off, eyes that had been gouged out and implements for disemboweling?

What exactly is the correct positive way to represent the eye gouging that was done under the rule of the Dalai Lamas?

NEWSFLASH for FRIDAY, January 2, 2009
Tibet under the Rule of the Dalai Lamas

In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master's cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who was raped and then had her nose sliced away. (Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth, by Michael Parenti)"

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