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Conversations with God
July 6, 2008
3:14 am
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You wrote:

"The four canonical gospels were chosen by Constantine. The gnostic gospels and other eye witness accounts of Jesus life and teachings were "discharged", many burned."

Yep! That is my understanding of what happened too! So what we have now in the bible is a Roman trumped up version of Christianity that is a hollow facade of Christ's original teachings? Yes?

And you followed with:

"Why were any other eyewitness accounts and gospels and diaries about Jesus declared heresy?"

What do the red hot, gungho, fundamentalist Christians here, who study and believe in the divine inspiration of the authors and compilers of the bible, some of whom are ministers, pastors, and elders, think about your assertions?

And you followed with:

"The Roman Catholic Church wasn't the beginning of Christianity, and won't be the end. It's in its last days."

I doubt that the Vatican spokesman would agree with you. Neither would Mr. Raymond Arroyo nor Father Benedict Groeschel from http://www.ewtn.com agree.

The Catholic Church's Views:


THE PRE-EMINENCE OF ST. PETER

50 New Testament Proofs

By Dove Armstrong

The Catholic doctrine of the papacy is biblically based and is
derived from the evident primacy of St. Peter among the apostles.
Like all Christian doctrine, it has undergone development through
the centuries, but it has not departed from the essential
components which already existed in the leadership and
prerogatives of St. Peter. These were given to him by our Lord
Jesus Christ, acknowledged by his contemporaries and accepted by
the early Church.

The biblical Petrine data is quite strong, and is inescapably
compelling. This is especially made clear with the assistance of
biblical commentaries. The evidence of Holy Scripture follows.

1. Matthew 16:18: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell
shall not prevail against it."

The "rock" (Greek, "petra") referred to here is St. Peter himself,
not his faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the
foundation, but as the architect who "builds." The Church is
built, not on confessions, but on confessors- living men (see, for
example, 1 Pt 2:5). Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great
majority of all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of
the traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken
of as the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and
superior of the family of God-that is, the seed of the doctrine of
the papacy. Moreover, "Rock" embodies a metaphor applied to him by
Christ in a sense analogous to the suffering and despised Messiah
(see 1 Pt 2:4-8; Mt 21:42). Without a solid foundation a house
falls. St. Peter is the foundation, but not founder of the Church;
administrator, but not Lord of the Church. The Good Shepherd (Jn
10:11) gives us other shepherds as well (Eph 4:11).

2. Matthew 16:19: "And I will give unto thee the keys of the
kingdom of heaven."

The "power" of the keys has to do with ecclesiastical discipline
and administrative authority with regard to the requirements of
the faith, as in Isaiah 22:22 (see Is 9:6; Jb 12:14; Rv 3:7). From
this power flows the use of censures, excommunication, absolution,
baptismal discipline, the imposition of penances and legislative
powers. In the Old Testament, a steward, or prime minister, is a
man who is "over a: house" (Gn 41:40; 43:19; 44:4; 1 Kgs 4:6;
16:9; 18:3; 2 Kgs 10:5; 15:5; 18:18; Is 22:15, 20-21).

3. Matthew 16:19: "Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be
bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be
loosed in heaven."

"Binding" and "loosing" were technical rabbinical terms, which
meant to "forbid" and 'permit" with reference to the
interpretation of the law and, secondarily, to "condemn," "place
under the ban" or "acquit." Thus St. Peter and the popes are given
the authority to determine the rules for doctrine and life by
virtue of revelation and the Spirit's leading (see Jn 16:13), as
well as to demand obedience from the Church. "Binding and loosing"
represent the legislative and judicial powers of the papacy and
the bishops (Mt 18:17-18; Jn 20:23). St. Peter, however, is the
only apostle who receives these powers by name and in the
singular, making him pre-eminent.

4. Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (see Mt
10:2; Mk 3:16; Lk 6:14; Acts 1:13). Matthew even calls him "the
first" (10:2). (Judas Iscariot is invariably mentioned last.)

5. Peter is almost without exception named first whenever he
appears with anyone else. In one example to the contrary,
Galatians 2:9, where he is listed after James and before John, he
is clearly pre-eminent in the entire context (see, for example,
1:18-19; 2:7-8).

6. Peter alone among the apostles receives a new name, "Rock,"
solemnly conferred (Jn 1:42; Mt 16:18).

7. Likewise, Peter is regarded by Jesus as the chief shepherd
after himself (Jn 21:15-17), singularly by name, and over the
universal Church, even though others have a similar but
subordinate role (Acts 20:28; 1 Pt 5:2).

8. Peter alone among the apostles is mentioned by name as having
been prayed for by Jesus Christ in order that his "faith fail not"
(Lk 22:32).

9. Peter alone among the apostles is exhorted by Jesus to
"strengthen your brethren" (Lk 22:32).

10. Peter first confesses Christ's divinity (Mt 16:16).

11. Peter alone is told that he has received divine knowledge by a
special revelation (Mt 16:17).

12. Peter is regarded by the Jews (Acts 4:1-13) as the leader and
spokesman of Christianity.

13. Peter is regarded by the common people in the same way (Acts
2:37-41; 5:15).

14. Jesus Christ uniquely associates himself and Peter in the
miracle of the tribute money (Mt 17:24-27).

15. Christ teaches from Peter's boat, and the miraculous catch of
fish follows (Lk 5:1-11): perhaps a metaphor for the pope as a
"fisher of men" (Mt 4:19).

16. Peter was the first apostle to set out for, and enter, the
empty tomb (Lk 24:12; Jn 20:6).

17. Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and
representative of the apostles (Mk 16:7).

18. Peter leads the apostles in fishing (Jn 21:2-3,11). The "bark"
(boat) of Peter has been regarded by Catholics as a figure of the
Church, with Peter at the helm.

19. Peter alone casts himself into the sea to come to Jesus (Jn
21:7).

20. Peter's words are the first recorded and most important in the
Upper Room before Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22).

21. Peter takes the lead in calling for a replacement for Judas
(Acts 1:22).

22. Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded)
after Pentecost, so he was the first Christian to "preach the
Gospel" in the Church era (Acts 2:14-36).

23. Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a
lame man (Acts 3:6-12).

24. Peter utters the first anathema (Ananias and Sapphira)
emphatically affirmed by God (Acts 5:2-11).

25. Peter's shadow works miracles (Acts 5:15).

26. Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts
9:40).

27. Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for
instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6).

28. Peter is the first to receive the Gentiles, after a revelation
from God (Acts 10:9-48).

29. Peter instructs the other apostles on the catholicity
(universality) of the Church (Acts 11:5-17).

30. Peter is the object of the first divine interposition on
behalf of an individual in the Church Age (an angel delivers him
from prison-Acts 12:1-17).

31. The whole Church (strongly implied) prays for Peter "without
ceasing" when he is imprisoned (Acts 12:5).

32. Peter presides over and opens the first council of
Christianity, and lays down principles afterward accepted by it
(Acts 15:7-11).

33. Paul distinguishes the Lord's postresurrection appearances to
Peter from those to other apostles (1 Cor 15:4-5).

34. Peter is often spoken of as distinct among apostles (Mk 1:36;
Lk 9:28, 32; Acts 2:37; 5:29; 1 Cor 9:5).

35. Peter is often spokesman for the other apostles, especially at
climactic moments (Mk 8:29; Mt 18:21; Lk 9:5; 12:41; Jn 6:67).

36. Peter's name is always the first listed of the "inner circle"
of the disciples (Peter, James and John-Mt 17:1; 26:37, 40; Mk
5:37; 14:37).

37. Peter is often the central figure relating to Jesus in
dramatic Gospel scenes such as walking on the water (Mt 14:28-32;
Lk 5:1, Mk 10:28; Mt 17:24).

38. Peter is the first to recognize and refute heresy, in Simon
Magus (Acts 8:14-24).

39. Peter's name is mentioned more often than all the other
disciples put together: 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23
as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is next in frequency with only 48
appearances, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find
John in the Bible. Archbishop Fulton Sheen reckoned that all the
other disciples combined were mentioned 130 times. If this is
correct, Peter is named a remarkable 60 percent of the time any
disciple is referred to.

40. Peter's proclamation at Pentecost (Acts 2:14-41) contains a
fully authoritative interpretation of Scripture, a doctrinal
decision and a disciplinary decree concerning members of the
"House of Israel"-an example of "binding and loosing."

41. Peter was the first "charismatic," having judged
authoritatively the first instance of the gift of tongues as
genuine (Acts 2:14-21).

42. Peter is the first to preach Christian repentance and baptism
(Acts 2:38).

43. Peter (presumably) takes the lead in the first recorded mass
baptism (Acts 2:41).

44. Peter commanded the first Gentile Christians to be baptized
(Acts 10:44-48).

45. Peter was the first traveling missionary, and first exercised
what would now be called "visitation of the churches" (Acts 9:32-
38, 43). Paul preached at Damascus immediately after his
conversion (Acts 9:20), but had not traveled there for that
purpose (God changed his plans). His missionary journeys begin in
Acts 13:2.

46. Paul went to Jerusalem specifically to see Peter for 15 days
at the beginning of his ministry (Gal 1:18), and was commissioned
by Peter, James and John (Gal 2:9) to preach to the Gentiles.

47. Peter acts, by strong implication, as the chief
bishop/shepherd of the Church (1 Pt 5:1), since he exhorts all the
other bishops, or "elders."

48. Peter interprets prophecy (2 Pt 1:16-21).

49. Peter corrects those who misuse Paul's writings (2 Pt 3:15-
16).

50. Peter wrote his first epistle from Rome, according to most
scholars, as its bishop, and as the universal bishop (pope) of the
early Church. "Babylon" (1 Pt 5:13) is regarded as code for Rome.

In conclusion, it strains credulity to think that God would
present Peter with such prominence in the Bible without some
meaning and import for later Christian history-in particular,
Church government. The papacy is the most plausible (we believe
actual) fulfillment of this.

This article was taken from the January/February 1997 issue of
"The Catholic Answer". To subscribe please write: "The Catholic
Answer", Our Sunday Visitor Publishing, 200 Noll Plaza,
Huntington, In 46750."

Isn't the Pope having "Conversations with God" too like other Christians? Isn't God replying? Or is there a crossed line to Satan?

If there is such disagreement between Christian Sects, then there must be a hell of a lot of ambiguity in the Bible. Would a genuinely all powerful, all knowing, and all loving God divinely inspire the writing of such an ambiguous collection of scriptures and allow their collection into a book called the bible at Nicea by Constantine's sycophants? Would such a God want Christians to be so misled and thus fragmented into so many sects?

A resounding NO! is the obvious answer. Therefore something smells 'fishy' either about modern Christianity or the attributes of the Christian God. I think it is more of a case of both/and rather than either/or!

July 6, 2008
2:11 pm
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You ask what others would tink of my assertions- they would think I'm a nut case. All many Christians know is what they've been taught, and they've been taught from the four canonical gospels and to never question. My own husband gets all freaked out when I start talking about all this- a friend of his had asked him to become a Mason and I told him he's gonna have to open his mind up a little bit and reject/overcome the fear that's been ingrained in his head regarding questioning what has been taught to him. Freethinking is an art and fear is it's biggest oppressor.

anyhow...

People have different thoughts on when Christianity began. some say it was with Jesus himself, Peter, Paul. Some say it was a cult formed within Judaism. Some say it began with fellow gnostics, Jesus being the greatest gnostic of all time to them.

Of course the Catholics would disagree with my assertions. To maintain power they must maintain themselves as the be-all of Christianity. But they're not.

Christianity, as it is practiced today amongst the many declared sects, is the result of Emperor Constantine who wanted to unite Europe. The word "Catholic" means "universal". Constantine was using religion as a binding force to unite the many pagan religions of the European people. Those who believed in a "Mother earth" God were told that Mary was that mother. Those who believed that the evergreen tree contained a special status because it never lost it's greenery were told that the Christmas Tree had importance- from representing eternal life (though strange as it dies when we cut it), to maintaining life in the most adverse conditions. Jews were brought in when Constantine claimed that the origin of Christianity was a Jewish Rabbi.

After creating his universal church by choosing the four canonical gospels (there was much criteria for their choosing), Constantine's armies went across the land, forcing everyone to worship the Christian diety. Opposition was crushed. People were persecuted, burned at the stake, and Constantines armies sought out any artifacts/writings that would provide a factual basis for debate regarding the actual events that comprised the life and death of Jesus, AND his family.

Remember that history is written by the victor, and Constantine won the battle to Unite Europe. He was the one who rewrote history and the one who made many of the claims about Jesus.

Nevertheless, to claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the beginning of Christianity, if we define Christianity as the following of the teachings of Jesus, is not logical. There HAD to be people who were already following/sharing/preaching the teachings of Jesus in order for the Bible to even have been organized and put together.

The Bible wasn't put together until the end of the fourth century. Had there not been followers/teachers of Jesus life, then He wouldn't have even been KNOWN this many years after his death. The Roman Catholic Church as we know it today would have never formed.

Within the pages of the Bible is great wisdom and truths. It is not a scientific book, nor is it intended to be. Instead, it claims to be the revelation of God to his people. It claims to record the past and predict the future. It claims to tell us what the distant future will be and that the ultimate destiny of people will end in either eternal salvation or eternal damnation.

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July 6, 2008
7:45 pm
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On the 6-Jul-08 you wrote:

"Within the pages of the Bible is great wisdom and truths."

I would appreciate it if you would give me one instance of great wisdom in the bible that would indicate some divine inspiration had occurred.

In particular, I would appreciate it if you would amply demonstrate how the bible has and can clearly define the root causes of the human condition, suffering, and how to alleviate that suffering here and now.

Also, would you kindly show me how the bible reconciles the incongruity between the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, and unconditionally loving God who either causes or permits all things and the horrible suffering that millions of sentient beings endure and/or seccumb to every day in this world?

Would such a loving God of the bible really create such a predatorial world as ours undoubtedly is? Can the divinely inspired Bible clearly reconcile and explain this fundamental and basic dichotomy? Surely the Christian God would not have overlooked this basic issue in having his divine instructions documented? Surely this divinely inspiring God would have inspired even Constantine to pick a divinely inspired scripture explaining the divine purpose of the absolute need for the predator/predated upon horrors that pervades every eschelon of this cruel world? Just walk around the meat section of your supermarket any day to see the evidential remains of mankind's gory and cruel predation upon fellow sentient beings.

Do you acknowledge the fact that almost two thirds of the bible has been directly plagairized from the scriptures of Judaism? Why not adopt the Jewism faith? Why pollute Judaism further with the barbarism ensconsed in the horrific primitive concept of a human/divine blood sacrifice to satisfy and reconcile mankind to a blood lusting God?

The primitive Indians of South America made a common practice of butchering young victims for a similar if not the same reason; that is, to reconcile humanity with wrathful, angry, blood sacrifice demanding deities. How is Christianity less primitive? Only in the victim numbers game? But the Catholic Church re-enacts this blood sacrifice at every mass. They claim that it is the actual, not metaphotic, body and blood of Christ that is being sacrificed yet again for the remission of their sins. How bloody primitive and sick is that belief and practice????

July 7, 2008
4:07 am
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Tez,

You have to find these answers to your questions within yourself. They are there.

The Christianity you describe was created by man, man who desired power and control.

This wasn't the way of Jesus and you know it.

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July 7, 2008
12:22 pm
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I have never understood how anyone can believe in a kind loving god or in his son, that allows innocent children to be abused, molested, raped in his omnipotent, omnipresent presence. The eye for an eye God that allows baby rapers to run free, perpetrating their crimes on still more innocent babies? That's horse s**t- it's a contradiction that I could never ignore or fantasize away. All the explanations anyone has attempted are just lame. Believing in that is a distorted reality.

When my little niece was three, she was violated, raped by a babysitter's husband's fingers. She knew all the words to Somewhere Over The Rainbow and until the "violation" sang it, with her whole heart at the top of her little voice. Then she stopped singing. Aside from that totally bogus creation story, and all the other intelligence - insulting contradictions in the Religion and the User Manual, there are too many little children with stifled songs to believe that stupid Unconditionally Loving God Rhetoric. What's the name of that again? Oh yeah -Christianity and The Holy Bible.

July 7, 2008
2:04 pm
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Bevdee!

(((bevdee)))

I am SO sorry about what happened to your niece. I can only hope that she can/was able to create a fulfilling life despite this trauma.

You bring up valid issues for which I have no explanation.

I wish I did, at least something that could provide hope and peace.

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July 7, 2008
4:19 pm
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Peter was Jewish.

When Jesus said "Upon this rock I will build my church" the church is not a building it refers to the church of Acts, and Jesus was referring to a body of believers.

The Vatican injected their own interpretation. Peter was a Jewish fisherman. He didn't convert to Catholicism.

July 8, 2008
3:29 pm
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You know,

It would be great if we all could meet face-to-face and discuss these matters. Maybe one day! 🙂

July 8, 2008
8:43 pm
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Conversation with God, the books have nothing to do with a religion at all. They are about a man that felt like he was talking to a god that was just like us. They formed a friendship. Has nothing to do with a bible or church or a religion. But a friendship with God. The man ask the same questions that are asked on this thread. Why God are there so many suffering. Let's put it this way.......it is man's doing. I fully believe we humankind have done it to ourselves.

But the reason why I like these books so much are because ....there are solutions in these the 3 books that were published years ago for mortal man to learn about how to treat the earth and people. I find it horrid that the debate about God is even on this thread since nobody here seems to have read any of these books.

July 8, 2008
9:33 pm
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Ya know horsefly, I haven't read any of these books. when I saw this thread title, I was interested and thought the discussion was about talking to God, a spiritual act.

I didn't even REALIZE there are books until you posted that earlier!

I feel like such a dork.

Been checking it out though. Sounds like intriguing reading.

free

July 9, 2008
9:49 am
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horsefly
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Well Free, I did not know there was a movie until Giggles started this thread. I stayed interested to see if anyone has read these books or what they thought of them. They are quite different and have been around a long time. I read them last summer and have never forgotten how much information that was in them. You are far from being a dork.....you are one of my favorites here. (((free))) horsefly

July 10, 2008
3:11 am
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On the 7-Jul-08 you wrote:

"This wasn't the way of Jesus and you know it."

I don't know what "the way of Jesus" was and I doubt that you do either. Sure you think that you do know. I don't doubt that. But so do all the Roman Catholic Christians think they do too.

Sure, I can surmise that the Gospel of St. Thomas gives me a glimpse at what "the way of Jesus" was really about - a master of deep mystical insights and teaching. But if I were to believe the fundamental message purporting to be Christ's by the vast majority of modern day Christians then I would see St. Thomas's writings as mind boggling nonsense and heretical.

July 10, 2008
3:36 am
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horsefly

On the 8-Jul-08 you wrote:

"Conversation with God, the books have nothing to do with a religion at all. They are about a man that felt like he was talking to a god that was just like us."

I understand the word "God", as used in the title of this thread, to mean:

"... a supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe" - WordNet

A "god that was just like us" would be a fraud if he claimed that he created the world, etc. He wouldn't be qualified for the position of being God at least not in the Christian sense. If he was just like us then he would have an emotion triggering amygdala, an anus, and either a penis or a vagina or both if he is a haemophrodite. This ain't no God. Perhaps, this author might be suffering from schizophrenia.

Of course I do believe that the Christian God was created by males in the image and likeness of the stereotypical patriarch of the human species by patriarchal males belonging to the tribes of the ancient Hebrews.

July 10, 2008
9:57 am
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horsefly
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Tez, You have the right to believe as you wish. But I don't think this author sounds like he is suffering from anything. He seems quite happy with his life. He probably make millions on the books. horsefly

July 10, 2008
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It is interesting to note that most people who bash the Bible and/or fundamental Christianity have never read the Bible or were abused/mistreated by someone "posing" as a genuine Christian.

Also, as an OLDE minister, I also find it interesting (AND understandable) that so many young people are uncertain about the existence of a God. As regards evil, perpetrated on children? As a tiny child (2) in foster care, I was molested. I remained in foster care until I was 6. I was subjected to frequent beatings, one of which nearly killed me and landed me in the hospital's ER. I had "religion" crammed down my throat during this entire ordeal, known as my childhood.

Today, I am an ordained minister who loves God, receives His love and specializes in reaching out to the abused, molested and socially rejected (addicts, prostitutes, bikers, etc.). I also note that -- whereas many young people boast themselves as aetheistic -- those nearing death or facing grave illness are significantly strong in their belief in His existence. When faced with our own mortality, our experience can rewrite our theology, I think.

- Ma Strong

July 10, 2008
11:33 pm
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horsefly
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Well, Once upon atime I thought I could talk on this "liberate side ". But is always the same thing, I have read here for the past year or so I have been here. Let's debate without a cause. Never falls. I do not and never will bring my spiritual beliefs over on this side. Nor on the other side ever. I am not a religious person at all. I am open to all beliefs. I find narrow minded people here and stay that way, just ready to attack open minded people. I will never share with any of you my path at all. horsefly

July 10, 2008
11:36 pm
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horsefly
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Oh quote I said on " july 10 O8" I meant to say never fells ( quote unquote) .

July 11, 2008
1:43 am
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oophs....quote said to be corrected on 7 10 of 08 " never fails" signed , horsefly

July 11, 2008
1:45 am
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quote was corrected on 7 11 08.....got my dates wrong. signed, horsefly

July 12, 2008
5:06 pm
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HOrsefly, I don't think it's fair that you call the people on this side, narrow minded. I am not a narrow minded person. I do not judge anyone, nor would I force my beliefs on anyone else. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, no matter what they are. As long as they are respectful of others.
I am so sorry this thread got so far off track. I simply started it just to see what those who do believe, thought of the movie.
Too bad it couldn't have just stayed on track. 🙁

July 13, 2008
12:02 am
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horsefly
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I knew this was coming. I saw the train. I did not mean to be unfair on your thread giggles. I will not do it again. I shall stay on the support side where I feel like I am personally comfortable at. Case closed. horsefly

July 15, 2008
6:25 pm
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((horsefly)), don't worry about it. It's all gotten so blown out of proportion it's ridiculous. Im over it. Just wish my thread could've stayed on track ya know?

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