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Consciousness outside of the human brain? Part II
November 17, 2006
10:15 pm
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dereka, that places as a child was nice, but it was also the place where you believed in faries, that didnt exist. There's no higher power than yourself. Believe in yourself. If you feel empty without believing in a higher power, this is like a drug. You'll need the drug to feel better. Dont need the drug. Fill the void within and get rid of that addiction. I was devouting ummm.. just God, lets say, heh.

November 18, 2006
6:47 am
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dereka
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ok I hear you but it does make me feel a little sad šŸ™ I didnt actually ever believe in fairies I liked the idea of them though. I believe that indiginous people have a certain power, through practices that do work whether that is a higher power or mind over matter! I dont know but it is magical to believe in spirituality and there is more well I do hope I wanna go back there before I took drugs. Drugs make me not believe in anything like that!

November 18, 2006
6:50 am
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dereka
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See Tez does put it a nutshell.

November 18, 2006
7:28 pm
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guest_guest on the 17-Nov-06 said:

"... how do believers of that philosophy gain from it? They're not gaining in anything."

This is classic example of a combination of blind sightand illogical thinking. It boils down to: "I can't see any gain therefore there is none" -Whoops!

November 18, 2006
7:31 pm
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Hi Dereka.

"See Tez does put it a nutshell."

It's rare, but I sometimes succeed in doing this. Thanks for your pointing this out to g_g.

November 18, 2006
9:54 pm
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Dereka, there is no evidence that indigenous people have any special powers. Its not been studied by science, although there's a nice delight in believing in magic, the thrill. But in reality it doesnt exist.

Tez

>> "I can't see any gain therefore there is none" < < Which means you agree that the 9 headed kitten in monitor exists? You cant see that too.

November 19, 2006
5:51 am
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I know all this too but couldnt put it in words!!!! The point is then believing in itself is more powerful mind of matter right ? I am sorry for my continuall dizzieness but I dont get the 9 kittens šŸ™ Sorry dont laugh

November 19, 2006
11:52 am
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Hi dereka

Yes, self-belief is the most important thing (well to me). For centuries religions have been telling us "Belief in faith system X is more important than belief in yourself and in your own judgement". This cripples self-esteem and the amount a person can achieve and how richly, fully and creatively they can live their life.

I use the kitten example on people like Tez who say "If you cant see or experience external conciousness, then that doesnt mean it doesnt exist" and to Worried_dad who says "If you cant prove the non-existence of God, you cant say that he doesnt exist"

I tell them that since they cant see the 9 headed kitten living inside my computer monitor, that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I've repeatedly asked them whether the kitten exists or not. They've never responded. They know that once they do (no matter which way they answer), they'll be trapped in their arguments.

Now, Tez believes in "external conciousness", which means a belief in a sort of a "soul" - some kind of conciousness existing outside the actual human brain which can exist after death too. He admits openly that science does not have any proof for this, yet continued to believe in it. As to why, I predict it is the age-old desire of humans to want to believe that they'll keep existing in some way after they die. No one wants to die.

Said Snoop Dogg Dogg in a recent interview when asked "If you had one Super Power in the world, what would it be?", he said: "To never die".

No one wants to die, niether do I but thats reality, it will happen and I'll vanish like I never was before my birth. But some people have various systems of belief to sooth their fear of dying and vanishing forever.

Ah, which is a good question I'll ask to folks who believe in external conciousness: Where was your conciousness 50 years before you were born or conceived? Was it hiding under a rock, inside a frog or above the clouds?

November 19, 2006
12:51 pm
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TYPOOOOOOOOOo:

Yet CONTINUES to believe in it.

And other typos, blah blah. You'll get the message.

November 19, 2006
1:49 pm
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Was that a question gg? Ok I will start with your first thing which I wanted to ask Do you believe in the soul?!??! and as for you being forgotten about, I am sure you will live on, there are many people that do! that have acheived something , when you have family surley you will live on through them , I am not to sure about life after death but I do believe in Karma do you ?

and lastly the answer to your question regarding external consciousness which I am not totally convinced off and find a little wacky, is regression but I would never like to say I dont believe it every one has to believe in something, Well as long as it is not pushed onto others and are not a cult like!! But lots of people believe they have been here before, they believe in new souls and old souls.

November 19, 2006
1:55 pm
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G_G you write: "I tell them that since they cant see the 9 headed kitten living inside my computer monitor, that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I've repeatedly asked them whether the kitten exists or not. They've never responded. They know that once they do (no matter which way they answer), they'll be trapped in their arguments. "

I think I responded to this, but in case I didn't I'd like to now.

Our current understanding of the physical laws of nature and genetics causes us to believe it highly improbable that your kitty lives in your computer. So highly improbable that we can safely assume it's zero, although probability is never zero. Just infinitely small.

We do not have such an understanding with which to claim the existence or non-existence of God or consciousness outside the human brain.

It can be logically argued that the existence of God has a probability of 1.

It can also be argued that the existence of God has a probability of 0.

Both infinitely large, and infinitely small.

Sorry, guest- your 9-headed kitten has a probability of existence that is infinitely small.

No large.

It's a zilch.

zippo.

free

November 19, 2006
2:12 pm
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Furthermore, the 9-headed livin in the computer theory and the existence of God or consciousness outside the human brain is not a valid comparison.

Genetic probability applies to the kitten. Not God or independednt consciousness.

that right there is enough to claim that this is not a valid comparison.

Intuitively most people know this I assume.

free

November 19, 2006
4:48 pm
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Thanks Free

For me its like the wind. I can see the trees moving when the wind blows, but if anybody asks me to show them the wind I cannot.

I can only show them the effects of the wind.

Garfield

November 19, 2006
4:59 pm
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Tez

You said

"...[They] rely a great deal on their dream consciousness, and they are seldom proved wrong in their judgement. "

I believe in dreams to guide me and always will. Dreams for me is so special because this is when the person (natural) is in a deep state of sleep.

You do not have control over what you dream.

Garfield

November 19, 2006
6:37 pm
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Well, I happren to know that computer monitors anymore are too thin to contain kittens. Furthermore, kittens inside your computer monitor are not part of the factory standard--that costs extra.

I can fantasize about a kitten inside a computer monitor and be pretty sure its just a fantasy.

I was not personally present with my digital camera at the birth of the universe. But still, modern science is pretty sure that the whole shebang was compressed into a point (much smaller than my computer monitor ) about 13.7 billion years ago.

Now that is remarkable.

To me it is not a big stretch to believe that the early universe produced a lot of particles connected by quantum entanglement--perhaps all of the particles. In fact it ius hard for me to believe otherwise.

There's your brain. The Universe.

No Human brains required.

If a single molecule of chloroform can be the world's fastest computer, what happens when you scale that up to include every molecule in the universe?

November 19, 2006
6:46 pm
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Free.

I must congratulate you on having the patience to sit down and write such a good response to g_g.

I have no such patience. I wished that I had. Though I enjoy playing with young children, I would be no good as a primary school teacher I'm afraid.

G-G seems to me to be either completely unable or unwilling to struggle to comprehend anything outside the domain of his extremely limited knowledge and experience.

November 19, 2006
7:04 pm
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Garfield9547.

Thanks for your response to the quote that I posted.

You said:

"You do not have control over what you dream."

I'm not sure what you mean.

Within this simple statement is contained great complexity.

When you are dreaming you are in an 'altered state of consciousness' - not your normal waking consciousness. It is this 'altered state of consciousness' that is conscious of events being played out.

That this 'altered state of consciousness' is constrained to your head as just some fanciful brain function is a huge unsubstantiated assumption of fact that I'm sure g-g would make.

That it is otherwise is also belief based upon speculation.

However, like you, I believe that dreams contain much more than just meaningless meanderings caused by of random neuron firings.

Though not constrained to them alone, I believe that telepathic communications can and do take place in dreams.

Further, I believe that we often get in touch with a deeper consciousness that has been referred to by Dr. Carl Jung as the 'wise old man' inside our collective unconscious.

Though conceived differently, this is is what the quote that I posted, is implying, I believe.

November 19, 2006
7:35 pm
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WD______

>> If a single molecule of chloroform can be the world's fastest computer, what happens when you scale that up to include every molecule in the universe? < < Those are structured arrangements. By your argument, there might be a 'brain' in the trashcan too. Random arrangement of stuff doesnt do anything plus as again -we're talking about human conciousness, thoughts and perceptions surviving outside the human brain - THATs what we're talking about. Is that physically even possible? It takes blood, nuerons and a living human brain to have that stuff, human conciousness. So again, we're talking about HUMAN conciousness. hi dereka_____, no I dont beleive in the soul. I'm an athiest. free______ >> Sorry, guest- your 9-headed kitten has a probability of existence that is infinitely small. < < But their argument is since I havent seen something, it doesnt mean that it doesnt exist. They're not arguuing about if its physically possible or giving proof or giving probabilities with genetics etc like you did to disprove the kitty. They simply say "If you havent seen it, it doesnt mean it doesnt exist". I can give any other kind of example too. An invisible dragon that created the Universes lives under my bed. How is that belief different from "God created the universe" ? Its the same.

November 19, 2006
7:38 pm
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typo: Universe.

November 19, 2006
7:45 pm
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WD said:

"If a single molecule of chloroform can be the world's fastest computer, what happens when you scale that up to include every molecule in the universe?"

It seems to me you get the Universal Mind the universal foundation of all consciousness.

Which depends upon which? Universal Mind upon the molecular "Scale ... Up" or vice versa (Unless of course, the All is the One in completely interdependent connectivity)?

It seems absurd to me to believe that such a Universal Consciousness is both inaccessible to and totally independent of our limited awake consciousness states. It seems reasonable to me to believe that meditation is just one of many ways of accessing such higher consciousness levels.

To call that Universal Mind, God, and then conceptualize that 'God' into a Super Man, a Supreme Person with emotions that are associated with survival drives spawned in the amygdala after eons of evolution, is an absurdity.

Alas, my post just engenders more demarcations and differentiations fostered by my imaginary placeholders called words, therein pushing us further from the truth!

November 19, 2006
7:47 pm
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Guset: I am not talking about a random arrangement of particles. Read again.

Next, when you are talking quantum computation, the physical location and physical arrangement of the parts is irrelevant. All that is required is quantum entanglement of the parts. Then you can randomly shuffle them and send each part to a separate galaxy--and they will still form a computer.

November 19, 2006
9:13 pm
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But the question is, is it going to be a Dell?

November 19, 2006
9:43 pm
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I'm sure Dell will try to get in on the act eventually.

Here's an even cooler version of the computer composed of every particle in the universe.

The actual computation might be performed by spacetime itself--with the mass and energy in the universe (including us and our brains) being results of those computation.

Welcome to the matrix.

November 20, 2006
4:48 am
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Tez

What i mean is I cannot control what I dream or when I dream.

Perhaps the most curious quality of dreams is that most of us most of the time are not aware that we are dreaming while we are dreaming.

Garfield

November 20, 2006
7:45 pm
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garfield9547

On the 20-Nov-06 you said:

"What i mean is I cannot control what I dream or when I dream."

I'm not sure 'who' is controlling 'what'. I have tried giving myself dreaming instructions just as I am going to sleep and have found that those instructions were carried out - amazingly.

Perhaps we can have conscious control if we believe that we can and practice it. Otherwise I suspect our personal unconscious does the controlling. To what extent, I do not know.

And you said:

"Perhaps the most curious quality of dreams is that most of us most of the time are not aware that we are dreaming while we are dreaming."

Yes I suspect that is true for most people most of the time. Most of the time I think that my dream is 'real' and I think that I am awake. Now I wonder what really is real. Is my awake consciousness just as 'unreal' as my dream state 'reality'. What is the difference? The length of that my awake reality versus my dreaming reality?

People who have NDEs say that their NDE reality was far more real than their present reality which, post-NDE, seems like a dream now by comparison. It makes one wonder.

Of course there is 'lucid dreaming' as you would know. In these states the dreamer knows that they are dreaming and can control what they are experiencing, at least to some extent, I believe.

Dr. Ann Faraday, the partner of the renowned Dr. John Wren-Lewis, is a gun academic on the subject of dreaming and dream control.

See the interesting article written by her and John called "The Selling of the Senoi" at:

http://www.spiritwatch.ca/selling.htm

Dr. John Wren-Lewis is knowned for his NDE which changed him from a athiest into a believer in a radiant consciousness emanating from outside of his body into his head therein experiencing his sense organ/brain functioning on an instant by instant basis. This guy is an academic physicist by profession - he's no fruit cake. His NDE story "The Dazzling Dark" makes very interesting reading. The URL is:

http://www.nonduality.com/dazdark.htm

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