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Confusing warm fuzzy feelings with love II!
January 22, 2000
6:11 pm
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VRJ.
You said, "If all is one then showing love to oneself ... to find love in the midst of confusing experiences and past pains." From my understanding of what you said, I totally agree.

Talking about nurturing your bf's 'little boy', you said, "...I don't want to use the same manipulating tactics he does... " If you were manipulating him to get your needs met in isolation, I agree with you. However, in order to get a screaming, tantrum throwing child's attention, you first have to reassure him that he is 'OK'. Then you may be able to have a one-on-one between his and your 'adult selfs'.(shades of Eric Berne's Transactional Analyses)

You said "I guess I could support him and subtlely compliment him when he responds in a loving way and try to avoid letting my buttons get pushed by recognizing they are there. Recognizing and accepting the emotional responses but use reasoning and maturity to sort through their validity in a specific situation and their usefulness for getting through it." - Yes, spot on! ... but, if you let your own 'li'l gal' run the show, you may not be able to do this. 'Dummy spitting' is usually what I do when my 'l'il boy' is in charge. Can you nurture yourself to the point where your adult is in control as it was when you wrote that recent letter to your bf?

You said, "Sort of like sending your son (himself) to earth in human form." Yes, but not just one son but many son's and daughter's; as many as have ever been and will ever be born. The Lord's prayer starts with Our father.... Surely this makes Christ our brother, doesn't it? And being his brother, surely we are in the same family as Christ, himself? I think this was a major part of Christ's lost message; namely that we are eternal beings 'made in the image and likeness of the Father'. We are 'God' in ignorance of Our true nature. I suspect that Christ wasn't in total ignorance of that as we are. He tried to illuminate our darkness, to remove our illusions of vulnerability. So... we crucified him, just as we would again if he came back again today. However, we would use the mass media instead of a wooden cross as our method of derision. After all the reason that he was crucified was his blasphemy in saying that he was the son of God. Sorry, I couldn't help it either. 🙂

Back to your bf, you said, "From what I can tell he must feel that his survival is based on: looking after me." Yesss! If he looks after you then he thinks that he can 'buy' your love; the love that you, his 'mom' didn't give him when he was a child and is now trying to get once again. You have the power to make him feel valuable or worthless. He has the power to do the same to you. Where does this power come from? From triggering emotions (infant emotional memories) in both of you into arousal. Not just anyone can trigger these emotions in you or him; the emotional/psychological 'template' of mom/dad must be there in some degree.

You said, "Another fear, maybe related to the first, is that he won't be able to do it" You are most probably right; he fears that he cannot even meet this price tag and leave him. Why wouldn't he 'feel' this when his own mother 'deserted' him as did many since. His fear driven behaviour is what has probably driven other women away into infidelity. He probably chooses women like his mother who are likely to leave him. A case of his making self fulfilling prophecies. You may be an exception. BUT then you will no longer fulfil the prerequisites of the image of his 'deserting' mother that he has. Sooo.... you have to keep rejecting him to fulfil the image in order to create the 'pull'. Push, pull, push, pull.

You said that you will make him feel needed. Good; but look for his 'cooling off' as his 'little boy' starts suspecting that you are not his rejecting, invalidating 'mom' of yesteryear after all.

Your bf needs to 'see' the motives behind his behaviour. But I doubt that you will be able to tell him or convince him. He will take it as your finding 'fault' with him. Then you will start to fit his rejecting 'mom's' psychic image again (push-pull).

You asked, "How do you explain a 'woman's intuition', or do you believe in it? Or a mother's intuition?" I believe that the right hemisphere houses the 'intuitive' self. I think that it is the right hemisphere that 'sees' wholistically. Men seem to devalue this right brained 'way of knowing'. Being predominantly 'left brained' men tend to value analytical, logical thinking highly. I suspect that 'mental telepathy', meditation, clairvoyance, clairaudience, teleportation, and other parapsychological manifestations are all right brained functions. Intuition is, in my opinion, a low key underdeveloped manifestation of what is possible using the right hemisphere to its optimum functioning. I also believe that faith is a right brained function. Some one once said 🙂 "If you had the faith of a mustard seed you could move mountains." When the limits of the left brained intellect are reached the right brain comes into its own. It is limitless in its power; I suspect that it has an 'awareness' that terminates in the 'Great Awareness'. Transcend the interface between the two and ... wow! I believe that's what Christ and many other Avatars have done. Does that clarify my beliefs about women's intuition?

January 22, 2000
10:29 pm
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Tez,

I have to admit I wrote my last post with the intention of getting the response from you that I got! I wanted to see if my "intuition" was right.

I must tell you I am a very smart woman. I have seen an awful lot of life in my 40 years. I have met many kinds of people...done many things. More than I've told you about. I am also a mother. Now, I'm not sure if you are a father(something makes me think not), but that motherhood allows me to see things in a different light. Instinct is better as well as coping skills. Moms have to roll with the punches or else they would fall apart. Especially moms of retarded children. "Sizing-up" skills are more refined. I'm not sure if it is part of the "fight or flight" syndrome, but whatever it is, it is there. What does this have to do with my bf and me? Well, let's just say...he has met my criteria. Just like you picked your current partner for her likes/ dislikes, etc., so too have I picked my bf. We are like two peas in a pod. But with enough difference to create a good balance. We ground each other--smooth out the edges. I have never met anyone like him--one who makes me feel at home. No, not the "family" of origin psycho
babble stuff...but the two pieces of a puzzle part. With a clear head I can say, I am nothing like his mother. Nothing. He is nothing like my father. We are like each other. We are like an oasis in the desert...one filled with fresh, clean water. We are the many sides of one face. His problem is fear of committment. Fear of loss. And more importantly, fear of failure. He believes in marriage and marriage for life. Divorce is failure. He will not fail again. The only way to be assured of that is not to marry. But he loves me. So, what is he to do? He struggles. He tests me. He baits me. He forces my hand. So far I have passed all the tests his wife failed. As much as that makes him happy it scares him too. He has more to lose if he loses me. And he works for a strict Catholic school. If he fails in this marriage it will ruin his career. One he has worked very hard to get. Do you see the difference?
I love him. I know how to roll with the ups and downs of life. I will not throw something away because I am afraid of a little work. His therapy is life. Sure, I will push for counseling when we get back together, but push-pull people don't end up alone. If that were the case there would be a lot of single people out there. No, we were brought together for a reason. To heal. To understand the other and be there when the going gets rough. He has a window of opportunity with me...if he doesn't take it, he will never find another to replace me. And, too, I won't find another. Why? Because I have my rational demands in a partner AND I want the passion...the ecstacy...the fireworks. I will not settle for less than I deserve. I found that in my bf.

If he goes into therapy, it will be when he feels a bit safer. He won't do it when his world is in chaos. See, I know him. I know how he thinks.
The only part I don't understand is the Catholic need to suffer. To pay penance for his sins. That is what he is doing now. He will come back. And I will take him back. This time, however, we will be adults, not parent/child. By the way, he played the parent part. At least according to Saeger's topology.

You see, Tez, my bf has a rare opportunity in me. But if someone handed you the Hope Diamond...you would question it's "realness". If you held it in your hand for awhile, carried it in your pocket, or used it as a paper weight...without the authorities coming to take you away...you'd begin to wonder at the validity of your possession. Just an analogy, but I hope you get my drift.

What you did worked for you...what would have happened had you stayed and fought for your lover? Answer with your heart, not your head. Did you really love her...or did you find an excuse to get out of something you didn't really want to work for? My bf gets upset about the loss of his wife, but when he had the chance to fight for her, he didn't. He let her go. He can't go a week without seeing me...at least in some form. What does that tell you.

sorry to ramble...but, I'm afraid I could not respect myself if I gave up on something I really wanted. I went back to college to get my undergraduate degree after twenty years and graduated with honors. I'm in a Master's program and my first semester I had a 4.0. I do not give up. Only if it's something I don't really want...

January 23, 2000
4:23 pm
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Kitten.

You asked, "What you did worked for you...what would have happened had you stayed and fought for your lover?" I probably would have committed suicide as her husband did. She took great delight in showing me the letter he wrote and left on his body as he died. The letter was a sad pathetic attempt to get her to 'love' him. She cherished the letter saying to me "Oh, how much he must have loved me" She was totally unconcerned for his suffering. She enjoyed punishing men. She was a classic sadist. She had been very badly scarred emotionally. ( Emotional memories- LeDoux 1996)

You said, "Answer with your heart, not your head. Did you really love her...or did you find an excuse to get out of something you didn't really want to work for?" Did I really love her? We broke up and went back at least 30 times over a 14 month period. I was obsessed with her. I am sorry that you cannot understand the nature of this emotional illness. I tried desperately to make 'sense' out of her and my 'non-sense' for a long time. This is how I started to take an real interest in the emotions. I underwent extensive therapy with two different psychologists to little avail. I started to use myself as a laboratory in testing the various theories underlying the schools of psychology as taught to me at the University of Queensland prior to obtaining my Psych degree. I finally realised that trying to step between the neurotic interplays in a highly dysfunctional relationship was going to destroy me.

Now to your situation. If you want to stay and fight for your relationship, I wish you the very best and I hope you succeed. All the best in your 'Masters'. I hope it brings you what you want.

January 23, 2000
5:41 pm
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Tez,

You didn't answer me. You said you were obsessed with her. I asked if you loved her? I guess it comes to the definition of love...

My bf does not punish me emotionally like that. Matter of fact, when we are together things are very calm and respectful. We love each other with a comfortable-ness. We adore each other, but not in a psychotic sort of way. I'm not sure how to explain our relationship...except to say, when we are together it is very peaceful. When I logged onto the net I was playing some music. Van Morrison. If you can understand his "speech" patterns, listen to "Have I Told You Lately"...the song is an emotional lyrical snapshot of the care that exists between my bf and me. It is when we are apart and he begins to worry I might leave that things start to fall apart.

I ran into him today at the market. We talked briefly. His eyes were filled with such tenderness...warmth. He has imposed the month time-frame for our separation. I will respect that. I do know, today, it seemed as if he wished I wouldn't respect it. He wants me back...I could see it in his smile, but this has to be done. We will both learn a lesson here...that people DO come back when love is present!

January 24, 2000
3:29 pm
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Kitten.

Interesting.....

January 24, 2000
7:03 pm
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Tez,

You said "'Dummy spitting' is usually what I do when my 'l'il boy' is in charge." What the heck is that!!!

I'm going to take a few of your thought together here - "However, in order to get a screaming, tantrum throwing child's attention, you first have to reassure him that he is 'OK'. Then you may be able to have a one-on-one between his and your 'adult selfs'. Can you nurture yourself to the point where your adult is in control as it was when you wrote that recent letter to your bf? " His survival is based on: looking after
me." Yesss! If he looks after you then he thinks that he can 'buy' your love; the love that you, his 'mom'
didn't give him when he was a child and is now trying to get once again. You have the power to make him feel valuable or worthless.. Not just anyone can trigger these emotions in you or him; the /psychological 'template' of mom/dad must be there in some degree. His fear driven behaviour is what has probably driven other women away into infidelity. He probably chooses women like his mother who are likely to leave him. You may be an exception. Sooo.... you have to keep rejecting him to fulfil the image in order to create the 'pull'."

This weekend was wild. Saturday I took him with me to get supplies. We went back to my house. We had several excellent conversations without defensiveness, blame or insecurities arising. We talked openly and honestly. I let him run the show regarding the work. I asked about his mother but we only got as far as physical characteristics (and she' pretty close to me in that area and even weirder is that someone who knows one of his female friends that I haven't met described her as looking kind of like me). And, you may be right about him picking women who are likely to leave him. Since I have never been married, I am fairly independent which probably was the pull. I'm realizing that I really like having a man around though. Things get done that I didn't even realize needed doing. Back to the story. Sunday was good until the afternoon. We even got through a few difficult conversations on touchy subjects. Then, he fell asleep in the chair and I woke him up. It's not a nice thing to see. He got up and started working and I asked what I could do to help and he said, "I'm irritable, it's probably best if you go do something else" I thought that was fine - honest - so I did. But then a spray bottle he was using quit working. We tried a few others then I said I would go to the store to get another one. When I tried to start the truck the battery was dead because I had left the flip door ajar when I brought groceries in - dumb yes. So I walked to the store, it's close. He got increasingly annoyed. He is a neat freak and I'm not. And he kept "having to" clean where he was working. By the time he was finished, he was in a very bad mood and then I had to tell him that I had to call the auto club about the truck. That did it! And he was maddest that I had walked (he's not looking after me). One thing I realized is that if I expect him to do things for me, I really should make sure the area is neat and clean. That, I think, is what would make him feel that I valued him. At least I'm learning. Anyway, now he was in what I'm sure was an internal rage. When the auto club got here, the guy told me to get in the truck to wait until the battery charged because it was cold. When I got back in the house the bf asked if I had had a nice conversation, etc. The little boy was in total charge! He decided to walk home (45 min to an hour in -20) . That was stupid since I had to run the truck for a while anyway and he is getting over a cold but he said 'I'll enjoy the walk' and 'I don't want to see you for a while'. So I let him. He usually goes to anger and blame first before he comes back.(screaming and tantrum throwing) I wonder if he learned anything this weekend? We discussed that. We'll see I guess. I'll take over a letter and leave it in his mailbox. I am very calm when writing and don't think out loud quite as much. I kind of enjoy these times to get my thoughts in order.

Talking about Christ you said " namely that we are eternal beings 'made in the image and likeness of the Father'. We are 'God' in ignorance of Our true nature. I suspect that Christ wasn't in total ignorance of that as we are. He tried to illuminate our darkness, to remove our illusions of vulnerability. No offense - I totally agree.

I have always believed in intuition, etc., maybe not to the point of faith, but always believed the possibility and even the probability. My mother is uncanny. One example is a few years ago she was in Florida in the winter and had been for a month. The background is that I used to have horses but due to an accident had a craniotomy and my balance is not great so I don't ride anymore. One day I was at the stable with a friend and decided to get on a horse for the first time in over 15 years. When I got home there was a message on my machine from my mother (who hates to spend the $ on long distance) saying that she just had to call because she had a strange dream about me and I was riding a horse. And that's all she called to say. She has done things like this before as well. I believe you and the guy who talked about the mustard seed are correct and we are so unaware of our true potentials.

P.S. Maybe it's time for a new thread?

January 26, 2000
3:23 pm
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VRJ.

I enjoyed your last very interesting response.

About "Dummy spitting": As you well know, it is what little babies do when they can’t get their own way. It is also a common substitute expression used in Australia for out of control, childish, emotional adult behaviour. : - )

About faith and my story about the mustard seed, the guy who said that was Christ.:-) I am very robust when it comes to discussing religion. Since I hold my own beliefs tentatively, and acknowledge my prerequisite ignorance in being human, I am unlikely to ever take offence at confrontations over my religious beliefs. I suspect that you are much the same in this regard. No worries, eh! 🙂

About intuition: Intuition is certainly a fact of life. Generally speaking, women seem better at using it than men. Recently an aboriginal friend of mine told me about the strange powers that his full blood aboriginal mother had before she died. He maintained that his mother could contact relatives on ‘walkabout’ and communicate over long distances as reliably as you and I do using a telephone. He also insisted that his mother could cause a running, attacking person to trip and fall before reaching her. He claimed to have seen this happen many times. I have no reason to doubt the honesty or integrity of this friend. The powers of the aboriginal Gudicha men (Australian aboriginal shamans) are well known and documented. They ‘point the bone’ and the victim invariably dies. There is a lot science does not understand about our psyche.

About your bf: Do you have a hand full there! He certainly seems to be playing the push-pull game, doesn’t he.

You said, "I asked about his mother but we only got as far as physical characteristics…" VRJ, I may have given you the wrong impression of what I mean by psychological ‘templates’ or ‘images’ here. I doubt that the kind of attributes, of which this template consists, would be consciously available to your bf. I doubt that he could tell you anything much about his inner emotional mother/father ‘template’. Can you imagine how a 3 months old baby ‘sees’ his mother? I am not talking so much about visual images here; although it does explain the highly differentiated preferences that men have for the size of women’s breasts. 🙂 I believe that all the infants sense organ inputs combine in the processing that results in emotional ‘images’ or memories that relate mom’s behaviour to the infant’s perception of its survival value for him/her. Voice intonations and their combinations, body language, amount and style of mom’s touching him, mom’s smells, mom’s response timing, etc combine to form a triggering image for survival related emotions. This parent child emotional memory creating process continues throughout the dependent stages of childhood. I believe that the infantile parent ‘image template’ is a very complex aggregate of many emotional memory associations.

I suspect that when you behave in a certain way you trigger these emotions in your bf. By finding causation in events external to himself, your bf in all probability ‘rationalises’ the causes of his feelings as best he can. If you inadvertently and innocently trigger the recall of an emotion which results in his feeling that he is unlovable, he could possibly rationalise this feeling by telling himself that the cause of his feeling is the ‘deficiency’ in your love for him. It would probably never occur to him that the feeling is the result of a triggered emotional memory recall from long past emotional experiences.

Because of his unquestioning belief in the accuracy of his erroneous perception, your bf may probably never dream of doing a ‘reality check’ in order to substantiate the veracity of his perceptions. Rather than reflecting on his inner emotional state of arousal, your bf probably also attributes the cause of his mood swings on external events. But, since you know your bf better than I do, you could confirm or invalidate this .

You said, "I wonder if he learned anything this weekend?" I am sure that he learnt something; but what, I have no idea. VRJ, if you want to make this relationship work, I think that you are in for the long haul. I think that, your bf needs to see where his difficulties are coming from and then he needs a to have a deep commitment to learning to manage his emotions. Then, rather than carrying out ‘hit and run’ manoeuvres, he might say to you, "I am feeling very……. … Would you let me share, explore and discuss with you, my feelings and what I think triggered them?" To do this, your bf, in making himself so emotionally vulnerable, would have to have a lot of trust in you not to take any ‘advantage’.

What do you think this thing called romantic love is all about?

January 26, 2000
4:26 pm
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VRJ.
Oh... about "starting a new thread", its OK by me.

January 26, 2000
8:27 pm
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Tez,
You said, "I am very robust when it comes to discussing religion. Since I hold my own beliefs tentatively, and acknowledge my prerequisite ignorance in being human, I am unlikely to ever take offence at confrontations over my religious beliefs. I suspect that you are much the same in this regard. No worries, eh! :-)"

Yes, I don't get offended about it easily. After all, it isn't my job to convert or heal, and I'm sure not 100% knowledgeable in it either. I have been given some firm beliefs, but also some tentative beliefs and an eagerness to see other points of view.

You said that intuition is certainly a fact of life and women seem better at using it than men. Do you think that's because men tend to the linear goal oriented fact based thinking and don't use that side of their brain as much? When my bf comes up with his uncanny projections of how something is, or will work, it's possible he's allowing a bit of intuition in, but only a bit at the end and it's mostly based on details, spacial relationships, common sense, etc. But I do think a bit of intuition is there. An example is the birthday gift I gave him on his first birthday we were together. It was a toothbrush, a roll of duct tape and a sweatshirt. We hadn't been together long so he probably suspected it wouldn't be too personal or intimate (common sense). The box was soft and about the size that a shirt would come in and he usually dresses pretty casually. He had just started staying over occasionally and had needed to borrow a toothbrush. We had a little joke going on that "The Red Green Show' was his favorite (a silly show about a couple of clumsy fix it guys who use duct tape to fix everything). But, he guessed all three things and was exactly right so, even though he might guess some of it right, to get all three and exactly right, I think there must have been some intuition involved.

Do you think that women have learned to trust their intuition more or really have more? Possibly a result of exercising that side of their brain more often or from not being able to rely on the logical, linear conclusions that we haven't developed as much. I can see how it would be good to tune into both aspects but I also think only to a degree. The two halves seem to make a whole allowing each partner to have input and be an 'expert' in their area, providing a sense of contribution. But also, if everyone could walk around with all senses and intellectual capabilities developed to the fullest it would be great. So, do we feed the ego and allow the person with the greatest skill in an area to have charge of it or do we try to develop it in ourselves?

As for myself, I know I have intuition, but I also know that, over the years, I have developed an unsureness about it. I don't trust it. Over the past year or so I have been trying to gain back my confidence and trust it even if I don't have scientific explanations for my decisions. At the same time I have been trying to develop more rational and mature thinking. I am an emotional being and I'm trying to tame it. It may sound strange but I feel that mature, rational thinking results in me trusting my intuition.

And what's walkabout? I've heard of it in relation to Australia but I'm not sure, is it meandering around the countryside, a trip or a spiritual out of body thing?

Regarding my bf you said, " Do you have a hand full there!" No doubt about it. I get tired sometimes but my intuition says to keep on going. I have learned some very valuable lessons in human behaviour, my behaviour, dysfunctional behaviour. I have also seen more concern, care, patience and faith than in the rest of my life. I have seen how I can cut someone to the bone by a careless comment. But my heart is his and that is right! The part of my intuition that keeps coming up and I keep pushing back down is the part that is telling me I have to lose my fear of rejection, be prepared for the consequences even if I don't like them and have faith in God and clearly set out the rules of this game to him, what I will and won't accept, what the consequences will be and be prepared to stand by them. I go so far but haven't quite made it over the hill yet. Maybe that's ok though while I'm taking the time to learn to control the emotional irrational thinking and responses.

You said that "the infantile parent 'image template' is a very complex aggregate of many emotional memory associations. If you inadvertently and innocently trigger the recall of an emotion which results in his feeling that he is unlovable, he could possibly rationalise this feeling by telling himself that the cause of his feeling is the 'deficiency' in your love for him. (HE COMPLAINS OF THIS QUITE REGULARLY) . . . your bf may probably never dream of doing a 'reality check' in order to substantiate the veracity of his perceptions. Rather than reflecting on his inner emotional state of arousal, your bf probably also attributes the cause of his mood swings on external events. But, since you know your bf better than I do, you could confirm or invalidate this"

We talked about this on the weekend (before the fireworks). About the train (truth, belief, emotion), about how emotional responses from childhood become 'hardwired', about how you need to stop and base your reactions on truth not imagined insults, etc. He listened but it will probably take him a while to process it. He is very slow at things like this but also very thorough. He will look at it from all angles and either reject or accept it. It is not something that he had any prior opinion on so there shouldn't be any need to 'stick to his guns' or bully his opinion across. He doesn't read or write well so I believe he has developed his other abilities greatly, to his extreme benefit. But also, he has learned that if he talks loudly, proclaims his total knowledge of a subject and has a tantrum if there's dissention, he usually wins. This is to his extreme detriment.

"To do this, your bf, in making himself so emotionally vulnerable, have to have a lot of trust in you not to take any 'advantage'."

I believe you are right and this is key. It's funny, I wrote that in a letter to him. It's usually right after he has allowed the wall down and become open (and vulnerable) that the wildness happens. Either then or right before he wants to do something he knows I won't like. But we'll stick with the first here. I asked him to trust in God's and my love for him. I explained how when you let yourself open your past hurts will surface, etc. and could he trust me that I will be able to understand. We'll see. Meanwhile I have to not 'take advantage'. I have to admit I have. Not at the beginning. It's not my style. In fact, not even close to my style. But I've found that over time, in response to him 'taking advantage' which seems to be his style, I've begun to react to it/grown tired of it/close up because of it and sometimes responded in a way that he would, immaturely and irrationally. That must stop because even though I haven't done it much, even once is probably enough to scare him. I'll have to build up the trust. He did open up and tell me some things this weekend so (when he comes back) maybe it's a start.

January 27, 2000
6:41 pm
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VRJ.

You asked, " Do you think that's because men tend to the linear goal oriented fact based thinking and don't use that side of their brain as much?" Yes, I do. I would not feel very safe flying in a jumbo jet designed by an aeronautical engineer who largely relied on his intuition. On the other hand, if I had a highly complex relationship problem about which little was known, I would seek a highly intuitive person in getting a solution; probably a woman's perspective. I think that men are largly about finding solutions to problems of a more materialistic nature. Nature seems to have us evolve that way.Of course there are many exceptions.

You asked, "Do you think that women have learned to trust their intuition more or really have more?" I agree with your subsequent thoughts about that question. And "So, do we feed the ego and allow the person with the greatest skill in an area to have charge of it or do we try to develop it in ourselves?" In relationships, in order to reach our highest potential for experiencing our humanity, rather than having the left brain of the man talking to the right brain of the woman, I think that we have to develop both hemispheres of our own brain as much as we can. That way we can best get to 'know', respect and ultimately love our partners.

About your bf, I think you are exhibiting very sound, solid thinking that should either result in a good relationship or allow both of you to move on. I am very unsure of which outcome will prevail. But irrespective of which, I think that it will be in both your best interests. Your thinking, determination and your modus operandi will see to that. I say this after very carefully considering every word that you wrote about your relationship. I am impressed by your perceptions.

Let me know how you are progressing in your relationship.

PS. A 'walkabout' is what full blood Australian Aborigines do. They will up stakes and walk for hundreds of miles by themselves in the arid desert for seemingly no reason. Obviously they do have a reason that is beyond the white man's understanding. They are very loving and spiritual people. Their concept of 'ownership' of anything is very different to ours. What is theirs belongs to the tribe. They find it hard to deny their fellow tribal members anything. Yet they have very well defined tribal laws that can result in a spear through the thigh or even death for serious infringements. White Australians, including me, generally have little understanding of their tribal way of life.

January 27, 2000
8:34 pm
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Tez,
Thanks for your vote of confidence regarding my skills and perceptions. I don't know how it will turn out either. I think I have come a long way in the last 3 years. I guess I'll see if he chooses to come along. And you're right in that either way it will be in our best interests. I do have much determination and won't let go until I feel the rope snap and just hope that is not what he needs to snap him out of his self absorbtion (sp?) You might not understand but I really feel this relationship is 'right'. I just don't know that my linear, goal oriented man will believe it without proof. But then again, if it is to be, the proof will come.
And about our people of aboriginal ancestry or native Canadians or Indians, depending on who you are talking to, they seem to have values similar to yours. The problem as I see it is that by moving into the city they are trying to live in a culture that is very foreign to them and are really getting messed up. And we aren't helping by trying to force them to assimilate. We might do better by adopting some of their culture. My first boyfriend was Metis which is a mixture of Indian (Cree in his case) and french. I could see the mixture of values in his family.

January 28, 2000
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I guess I have always confused warm fuzzy feelings with Love. I never knew this but have come to the relization that is what I have been doing. I wonder now if I have ever been in love??? I would hope so but I don't know isn't that strange? I have a son and I belive I loved his father at one time, we later split up and today I have no feelings for him. I know I do have some strong feelings for someone but don't know if it is real Love????

I have Love for my son and grandson but I do know that is a different kind of Love you would have for a companion or spouse.

I believe there are so many kinds of Love, friendship Love, Sister Love, Brother Love, co-worker feelings...am I lost in Limbo or something????

I am fuzzy about feelings with Love..........Bel

January 28, 2000
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VRJ.
You said, "You might not understand but I really feel this relationship is 'right'."

I think that I do understand what you are saying; but I am not sure that I am right. I see three possible interpretations here.

One is that you 'feel' (intuitively believe) that the relationship will serve to foster growth in both of you and will lead to peace and contentment at some point in time. This is loving.

The another is that you feel an emotional attraction similar to that of a key fitting a lock; a matching 'template'. This, I believe, is 'survival' stuff.

The former, I think, is more of a function of right brain cognition triggering feelings of 'rightness'; whereas the latter is, I believe, the direct result of an emotional processing.

The third possibility is some combination of the previous two.

Is there another understanding that I might be missing?

You talked about your bf's "self absorbtion". This afflicts a large portion of the human race. The individual differences are only a question of degree. It is my belief that the more insecurely attached as a child, the more self-absorbed we will be in adulthood. Remember that wise saying, 'Show me the boy and I will give you the man.'? Of course it applies to women as well. I believe that men are more afflicted because, for men, the completion of individuation process tends to occur earlier, to be much more abrupt, to be more traumatic and final than for women. But, I've seen no research to substantiate this belief. In this regard, I therefore acknowledge the possibility of being deluded. Of course in adulthood, we remember little of this process.

January 28, 2000
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Regarding the 'rightness' of my relationship, I think it might be a combination of the two. In him, I see qualities that complement and/or enhance mine and/or are ones I need and vice versa. If you take away the immature, insecure, self absorbed, scared part, I really like him and his basic personality. There is a definite physical attraction, common morals and dreams. Beyond that, I have never 'wanted' to have a child with anyone before and see the two of us united. I feel that being married to him would be something holy. I can visualize us sitting on the veranda together when we are old. I love his quirks, like the half of one finger that is missing. But I also feel a very strong need not to lose myself in this relationship. I will not live with him outside of marriage. I'm not morally indignant at the thought. It is just another intuitive thing that is 'right'. I feel that God is leading me. I am driven to be with him yet I am also driven to not let him make me stay unhealthy or stay unhealthy himself. At the risk of losing him, if he chooses not to give up his fears, I must not give in to doing things his sick way. Something inside me won't allow it. I am just trying to do it gradually with the minimum of pain. This may not work but I have to try it. I've got a deadline in my mind coming up but I'll just leave it at that for now. The bottom line is that I feel a 'correctness' when together or when I think about him. I find it amazing that I haven't felt 1/10 of the feeling/passion/love ever before even when I was engaged. I have also never felt 1/10 as much pain. So, I don't know if that fits your interpretations or not.

To change the subject a bit, what really 'pisses me off' is his lying. He seems to think that as long as the words coming out of his mouth aren't incorrect, he isn't lying. So manipulation of the truth, witholding information, halftruths and misdirections are ok. My guess is he's afraid of my reaction if he tells the whole truth and he has deluded himself into thinking that what I don't know won't hurt me. You know as well as I do how incorrect that is. As awful as the truth could possibly be, and it can't be that bad, it would be the truth and could be dealt with. This other 'crap' only serves to confuse, inflame and create unnecessary suspicion. Can you tell I'm a wee bit annoyed this evening? I think I'll stop here.

January 29, 2000
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my post is so simple and not worth the effort I guess...

January 29, 2000
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Sorry Bel, Tez and I have been talking back and forth and I didn't realize that you wanted a response. I thought you were just sort of warming up to the conversation. Join in. If you read back you will see that we have discussed what you are talking about. Try the other thread as well. How do you define real love?

January 30, 2000
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VRJ

The more you disclose about your bf, the more I begin to believe mine must be his brother or at least his clone.
I also agree with your concept of how much you love your bf. I was married for sixteen years and what I felt for my husband doesn't even come close to what I feel for my bf. A few years ago I fell in love with a beautiful man whom I thought would be my soulmate. We were perfect together, but after about six months something started nagging at my intuition and I knew(but without any real concrete reason) that he was not the man for me. When I met my current bf, there was an emotional click that made me aware of the "rightness" of this match.

My daughter has a pair of shoes just like mine. Often, they end up in my room by mistake. I'll reach for them to put them on my feet, all the while believing them to be mine. After tying them, I stand up to walk and realize they are not my shoes. Off I go in search of mine. As soon as they slide on my feet, I know the difference...they fit perfectly. They fit "right". Now, men are not shoes, but I do think they have to fit right too. Also, just like my feet feel good in the right shoes...I feel good when I am with the right man. There is a snug fit--I know it won't come loose.

Does any of that make sense?

January 30, 2000
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VRJ.

You said, " I find it amazing that I haven't felt 1/10 of the feeling/passion/love ever before even when I was engaged. I have also never felt 1/10 as much pain."

It seems that the degree of ecstacy of reunification felt is matched by the degree of agony of rejection;tThe greater the ecstacy the greater the agony. The interesting question is what governs the degree ? I believe that the 'degree of intensity' is related to the precision of fit of the 'template' in your emotional memory to that image coming from your bf. This, I believe, is an emotional response that is emanating from childhood memories.

You said, "... what really 'pisses me off' is his lying... " Yes, it destroys trust and makes dealing with issues difficult. In the long run, trust is an absolute prerequisite for making any relationship work. I can understand your anger. Your bf appears to be threatening your permanent 'reunification'. What do you think is the source of and the perceived threat behind your anger?

January 30, 2000
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Bel.
I regret not seeing your posting. In the flurry of scrolling down the web page, and cutting and pasting from my word processor, I missed it altogether.

You said, "...I am fuzzy about feelings with Love..." The part the emotions and consequent feelings play in how we classify 'love' is very interesting. You listed several classifications of 'love' all based on the type of relationship and the varying degree of intimacy. The feelings vary between these types. Why do you think this is?

January 30, 2000
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Kitten,

There are two of them? Aaeeiiiiiiii!!!!! Run!!!

Sorry, Does it feel to you that, yes, things click, and he has many wonderful qualities, and there is this warm, caring, good man inside? But there is something perverse and dysfunctional, running through everything, like everything is sort of tainted by it and the good man wants to come out but is terrified and/or doesn't know how to get out? And sometimes you feel like taking a sledgehammer and bashing the wall down? Heehee, my violent side. But that's how I feel sometimes. I've learned that I can't force him out and I guess it's up to God. I feel that it's good in that I've learned a lot and am still learning. And whether or not the real man ever comes out, I am going to be ok. And some things you have to give up to a higher power.

January 30, 2000
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Tez,

You might have something in that 'reunification template' thing in that my mother was very controlling. And so is my bf. None of the other men I've seen have been controlling. Most were just unavailable. He brings up feelings of rebelliousness in me just like or even more so than she did/does. I've noticed that and it's interesting The opposite of rebellion would be submission and that certainly isn't anything I would be good at, ha! But it's also not the answer - for him or me. The answer, I think, is somewhere in understanding why I feel like that and what brings it out and developing better behaviours toward both of them. And those correct behaviours lie somewhere in assertiveness and not needing to be liked all the time. I'm learning, but before I always felt angry or like I was being rude if I stood up for myself. I think perhaps it was partly their reaction too. If I disagree they act put out, or offended or try to get me to justify myself. I have been trying to teach myself that I can disagree and not do exactly what they want, and I don't have to justify anything. And if they choose to be upset about it, keep questioning my decision (mom) or withdraw their love to teach me a lesson (bf) it is really their problem, not mine. The effects on me aren't nearly as severe - the degree of agony is lessening. Mom is getting better, probably because I'm on my own and not around her all the time but she can still push the buttons on occasion. With my bf, I think I'm just feeling pity for him. I haven't 'reacted' in a long time. He keeps pushing harder (e.g., he took off somewhere this weekend without telling me) but I guess I've learned that for me to react is what he wants (even if he says it's not) and to not react leaves the ball in his court.

The first year we were together, I felt like I lost myself because I thought I must be doing something wrong and was trying to change. The second year, I was plain confused because I realized I wasn't to blame and yet we are both intelligent loving adults so I was trying to make sense out of things that didn't seem to make sense. This past year I've come to realize that it won't make sense because it is nonsense. But it's his nonsense. I just have to stop letting him draw me into it. Last weekend was a good example when he said I should have come into the house instead of talking to the serviceman because I know his insecurities and shouldn't try to exacerbate them. At first glance, it seems reasonable for him to ask that I not do things to increase his insecurity. But, in actual fact, I didn't. I had a purely professional discussion with the serviceman. And without going into all the examples, he constantly does just that, does things to try to increase my insecurity. It's not working though. What it's doing is decreasing my 'agony of rejection'. Or maybe I have just healed to the point where I can see the game.

Regarding his lying, you said, "I can understand your anger. Your bf appears to be threatening your permanent 'reunification'.

From what you've said before, I shouldn't want 'permanent reunification'. I should want 'unification' or mutual growth with someone and not because they fit an emotional template. Or, is it necessary that they 'fit' to some degree? Do you think I'm fighting an old battle with my 'mom'?

You asked what I think is the source of and the perceived threat behind my anger? To be honest, I think I'm angry because he's not playing the game fairly. And by doing it he treats me like I'm stupid (lack of respect). And because I'm not getting what I want (control issue? romantic vs. true love?) And because I can see and feel the 'rightness' and he's fighting it. And because he hasn't seemed to have learned a thing in the past 3 years.

Those answers were honest.

As far as the perceived threat I'm not sure. Maybe I fear that I could be wrong in my trust and about my feeling of 'rightness' and am being played for a fool. Perhaps that I'm wasting my time. Intellectually I know that's not true though because I am growing and learning. Maybe it's a biological clock. If we don't have a child, I probably never will (now that's raw-maybe that's a big part of the anger and has not a lot to do with the issue). Hmmmmm.

Any thoughts?

At other times (most of the time) I feel a calmness when I think about him and I but every once in a while, I get angry, depressed or just sad. I think it's when I lose sight of unconditional love and revert to the more human or easier need driven love (?) At theses times I have to try to remember tha everything has a purpose and to just experience the now and see where it takes me.

January 31, 2000
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VRJ.

You said, "Do you think I'm fighting an old battle with my 'mom'? " I suspect so. Maybe 'dad' is involved somewhere there as well.

And further, you said, " I think I'm angry because he's not playing the game fairly. And by doing it he treats me like I'm stupid (lack of respect). And because I'm not getting what I want (control issue? romantic vs. true love?) And because I can see and feel the 'rightness' and he's fighting it. And because he hasn't seemed to have learned a thing in the past 3 years. " Yes and given all this, what the likely undesirable outcome that you foresee happening as a result of the above? Can you pin this down to a precise outcome? What might you lose or not gain?

February 4, 2000
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Tez,

It took a while but here's your response:

What is the likely undesirable outcome? That he is unable to change or even see a need for change at this time and will continue to play by his dysfunctional rules unless I change my response to and acceptance of them. Until I respect myself enough to not allow disrespect, he will continue to disrespect me. If I'm not getting what I want now, I probably never will until I quit looking for 'what I want' from him and get it myself. If he can't see the 'rightness' and is fighting it, his mind is probably too full of garbage right now to see anything clearly and since I can't get rid of his garbage for him, he will continue fighting until the garbage pile becomes too big to ignore or that's all he has left. If he hasn't learned a thing, it's because he doesn't want to or is unable to at this time so things won't change.

What I would lose would be the man I feel spiritually connected to and want to love until I die, but also a lot of stress and insanity. What I might not gain is to be married to and have a child with him. But I also might not gain a very dysfunctional relationship.

I have recognized for a while that it will take divine intervention. Since he is the only man I have ever felt like I want to spend my life with I have been prepared to patiently wait. But maybe the answer lies more in taking action myself, instead of waiting for divine intervention in him. Since it's obvious he's off in some world of his own, and won't let me in (probably a very scary place anyway) and doesn't want to be in my world right now, I'll just have to make my world the best place it can be for me. And if that intervention ever happens at least I'll have a nice little place for him to come home to.

Regarding the old battle with my mom's controlling and my rebelling against it, you thought that my dad might be involved as well. I'm not sure. He certainly wasn't controlling like her. He was the 'good guy'. But perhaps he fueled the rebellion by giving me things behind her back justifying my feeling that she was wrong. I rarely had any problem with him as a child. It's only since I've gotten bigger (notice I didn't say grown up) that I can see the aggression. He undermined her by what he did. He also put us down disguised as joking, e.g., straight A's? Who's report card is that? It must be someone else's. Etc. haha. Hey I just thought of one thing. He gets upset if I don't take his advice and I always hate to hurt his feelings. It's just lately that I've begun to say to him that he doesn't have the right to call me stupid just because I make a choice other than what he suggests. Hey again. I think I've got something here. I'll have to think about it more.

So, maybe I should stop and look at mom's suggestions before I go to rebellion. I actually think I have been for the past few years anyway. How would you handle her comments like "Don't you think it's hot' meaning turn on the air conditioner or 'why did you cut your hair like that? Wouldn't it have been nicer suchand such a way?' I've tried just turning on the ac but that gets irritating after a while. I've tried saying 'not really' but that's just rebellion and rudeness. I've tried saying' Do you want the ac on?' It's like she wants to make her point and have her control without coming out and saying it. And the bf is similar. He'll look at a piece of dirt and say 'what's that?' meaning pick it up. I want to say 'It's a piece of dirt bozo!' I explained it to him once when he was in a good mood so he has adjusted a bit. But there's much more control. E.g., time - makes you wait, days sometimes, controls when you see him, when you don't. If you do something he doesn't like, breaks his promises and witholds love and affection. I guess it's just more to add to the list at the top.

I have a 'meeting' with him tomorrow to discuss 'our situation'. I have a feeling it will be one sided with him demanding all the changes in me. But, I'm not going to let that knowledge stop me. I'm going to try to be receptive, watch my feelings, reassure myself, etc. I'm going to try not to retaliate even if I see the double standards. I'm going to try not to get defensive or insist on getting my points across. If I even get one across I'll be satisfied. Looking at the beginning of this post, I'm not sure there is really much left for me to do, unless it's hit him between the eyes - hard (and not literally). And that might be true love.

A few other things I have to be aware of are that I do tend to exaggerate I think, get too worried about things and blow them out of proportion. I take my intelligence which allows me to know things, facts, relationships with my intuitiveness which helps me to project and to see motives and use it, too much sometimes I think. Sometimes I feel like I see better than the person doing it. Now is that some kind of illness (grandiosity) or fact?

February 5, 2000
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Update. Had the meeting and it wasn't at all what I expected. He was receptive even to me saying that the way he reacted about the CAA guy was like he reverted to an 8 year old. Never dull anyway.

February 6, 2000
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VRJ.

You said, "If he can't see the 'rightness' … If he hasn't learned a thing, it's because he doesn't want to or is unable to at this time so things won't change." ‘Unable’ is the key word here, I fear.
VRJ, in our quest to have our needs met, we humans, your bf included , have, in our observations of and interactions with our parents, learnt ways of dealing with others of the opposite sex. These ways are sometimes very self-defeating; yet still we cling to them. Why? Because we know no other way!
Through many rationalisations over many years, your bf most probably has come to believe that his way of interacting with women is the only way to guarantee that he can have what the woman has to offer and at the same time retain his own individuality. From his heavily distorted perspective, he probably sees his past relationship failures as not being largely a result of his behaviour but as being due to the untrustworthiness of women in general. His battle with you in trying to ‘bring you to heel’ is probably to ensure that he is in control of you and not you in control of him. If you don’t succumb then he will probably reconcile himself with the sad thought that you were just like the rest; untrustworthy with his emotions, likely to hurt him and out to dominate him.
Now, one would think that such a man would pick a submissive woman and dominate her. But no. If as a child he perceived his mother to be strong and dominating and yet at the same time likely to hurt him if he allowed himself to be close to her, then he is very likely to be very attracted to a woman in whom he perceives these same traits - that is the ‘mother template’. Please note that I am not saying that you are actually like his mother. I am saying that he sees enough of his mother in you to project the rest of the ‘image’ into you. This, I suspect, is from whence his feeling of ‘rightness’ about you comes. All this is well and truly below his consciousness, I feel sure. If he read this he would probably scoff and regard it as absurd. But, I think that in his interactions with you, he is probably desperately trying, in the only way he knows how, to unconsciously resolve those recalled feelings of so long ago; that is , to reconcile the need for intimacy , trust and consistent affection from a specific ‘template’ projecting woman (you) and the freedom from domination by the same. As a child, he was probably given very conditional and inconsistent love and affection by his mother. I suspect that this experience has inhibited his ability to trust women with his emotions. Thus he probably unknowingly has set the seeds for all of his relationship failures.
In the short term, for your bf to ‘see’ and understand the above is almost impossible. We are all so blind to our own selves. It will take years and years of courageous reflection on his part. Divine intervention excluded, I see little hope of immediate sustained change. He may want to change in order not to lose you. But such superficial behavioural ‘change’ will be pursuant to you passing his ‘tests’ and meeting his ‘needs’. The first time that you do not and he feels ‘trapped’, ‘unloved’ or ‘inadequate’ he will ‘withdraw’. He most probably did that as a child with his mother. This was most probably when he learnt how to ‘deal’ with women.

You said, "What I would lose would be the man I feel spiritually connected to and want to love until I die, but also a lot of stress and insanity. What I might not gain is to be married to and have a child with him. But I also might not gain a very dysfunctional relationship…. he's off in some world of his own, and won't let me in (probably a very scary place anyway) and doesn't want to be in my world right now, I'll just have to make my world the best place it can be for me." - Yes, I think that you see the picture clearly. I see it as a choice between two lots of emotional pain.

(1) If you try to step between his ‘neurotic cracks’ you could find the process very tiring and nerve racking. When you accidentally step on ‘one’, the bf will react badly. Therein by reacting, he could step on one of yours. Pain for both of you will probably ensue. (push-pull) Can you handle many years of this? Whilst it won’t deflect the pain, therapy and much reflection would undoubtedly help.

(2) The other alternative is to break up permanently and live with the painful loss for years until his memory fades; as it surely would. I had to make this decision. I asked myself the simple question. Which of the two painful experiences is most likely to bring about the kind of life that I want to lead?

About your mother saying to you, "… ‘Don't you think it's hot' meaning turn on the air conditioner or 'why did you cut your hair like that? Wouldn't it have been nicer such and such a way?'" My own mother used all kinds of ways of letting me know that I didn’t meet her standards. When she was alive, I handled it very badly. It was only after she died that I started to gain insights into my mother-son relationship and how dysfunctional it had always been. How would I handle my mother today? In theory, I would just light-heartedly dismiss her and then reflect on the causes of my inner pain - therein gaining from the experience. In practice, I would probably react by telling her to mind her own business. Then I would suffer the pangs of guilt as a result of her virtuoso performance of the ‘unconditionally loving mother’/ ‘ungrateful son’ scenario.

You said, "Sometimes I feel like I see better than the person doing it. Now is that some kind of illness (grandiosity) or fact?" You seem to me to be a fairly insightful person who is willing to question your own beliefs. This is not a symptom of grandiosity. I suspect that we all like to have the secure feeling that comes from thinking that we know what others think; and what motivates them. It tends to give us a false sense of control over our own lives. Generally speaking, we know very little about ourselves let alone another.

One thing that I have realised about humans is that they, including myself, are often completely in ignorance of the motives and intentions that drive their behaviour. We all give very selective attention to events around us. We then filter the incoming ‘data’ through the interpretive process which is influenced by many past memories, both emotional, procedural and contextual. In observing and assessing the behaviour of others, we bring our own past into the equation. This is why Confucius said that we should never judge others unless we have first walked ten miles in their shoes.

All the above conjecture of mine about the motivations behind your bf’s behaviour says more about me than about him. : - )

PS So your bf was receptive at the meeting. Now, where to from here?

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