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Codependent No More CHAPTER 4
January 20, 2007
5:55 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Chapter 4 is due January 25, Thursday.

Question to ponder: How do you feel about changing yourself? What do you think would happen if you began to change? Do you think you can change? Why or why not/ Talk about the answers to these questions.

Below are the characteristics of codependency. Go through the checklist in this chapter. Mark each characteristic w/ a 0 if it is never a problem for you. Mark the characteristic w/ a 1 if it is occasionally a problem. And mark it w/ a 2 if it is frequently a problem. Later, in another chapter, you will use this to establish goals. You may wish to use it now as a guide to the chapters you want to read.

CODEPENDENT CHARACTERISTICS

CARETAKING

Codependents may:

___ think and feel responsible for other people - for other peoples feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny. ___ feel anxiety, pity and guilt when other people have a problem. ___ feel compelled-almost forced-to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings. ___ feel angry when their help isn't effective. anticipate other people's needs. ___ wonder why others don't do the same for them. ___find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves. ___not know what they want and need or, if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important. ___ try to please others instead of themselves. ___find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to themselves. ___ feel safest when giving. ___ feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them. ___ feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them. ___ find themselves attracted to needy people. ___ find needy people attracted to them ___ feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help. ___ abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else. ___ over commit themselves ___ feel harried and pressured. ___ believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them. ___ blame others for the spot the codependents are in, ___ say other people make the codependents feel the way they do. ___ believe other people are making them crazy. ___ feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used.
___ find other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics.

LOW SELF WORTH

Codependents tend to: ___ come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families. ___deny their family was troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional. ___ blame themselves for everything. ___ pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel, look, act, and behave. ___get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize the codependents-something codependents regularly do to themselves. ___reject compliments or praise. ___get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation) ___ feel different from the rest of the world. ___think they're not quite good enough. ___ feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves. ___ fear rejection. ___take things personally ___have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism. ___ feel like victims. ___tell themselves they can't do anything right. ___ be afraid of making mistakes. ___ wonder why they have a tough time making decisions. ___ expect themselves to do everything perfectly. ___ wonder why they can't get anything done to their satisfaction. ___ have a lot of "shoulds." ___ feel a lot of guilt. ___feel ashamed of who they are. __think their lives aren't worth living. ___ try to help other people live their lives instead. ___ get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others. ___ get strong feelings of low self-worth-embarrassment, failure, etc. from other people's failures and problems. ___wish good things would happen to them. ___believe good things never will happen. ___believe they don't deserve good things and happiness. ___wish other people would like and love them. ___believe other people couldn't possibly like and love them. ___try to prove they're good enough for other people. ___ settle for being needed.

REPRESSION

Many codependents: ___ push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt. ___ become afraid to let themselves be who they are. ___ appear rigid and controlled.

OBSESSION

Codependents tend to: ___ feel terribly anxious about problems and people. ___ worry about the silliest things. ___ think and talk a lot about other people. ___ lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior. ___ worry. ___ never find answers. ___ check on people. ___ try to catch people in acts of misbehavior. ___ feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems. ___ abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something. ___ focus all their energy on other people and problems. ___ wonder why they never have any energy ___ wonder why they aren't get things done.

CONTROLLING

Many codependents: ___ have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment. ___ become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally. ___ don't see or deal with their fear of loss of control. ___ think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave. ___ try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination. ___ eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people's anger. ___ get frustrated and angry. ___ feel controlled by events and people.

DENIAL

Codependents tend to: ___ ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening. ___ pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are. ___ tell themselves things will be better tomorrow. ___ stay busy so they don't have to think about things. ___ get confused. ___ get depressed or sick. ___ go to doctors and get tranquilizers. ___ become workaholics.
___ spend money compulsively. ___ overeat. ___ pretend those things aren't happening, either. ___ watch problems get worse. ___ believe lies. ___ lie to themselves. ___ wonder why they feel like they're going crazy.

DEPENDENCY

Many codependents: ___ don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves. ___ look for happiness outside themselves. ___ latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness. ___ feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think.
___ provides their happiness. ___ didn't feel love and approval from their parents. ___ don't love themselves. ___ believe other people can't or don't love them. ___ desperately seek love and approval. ___ often seek love from people incapable of loving. ___ believe other people are never there for them. ___ equate love with pain. ___ feel they need people more than they want them. ___ try to prove they're good enough to be loved. ___ don't take time to see if other people are good for them. ___ worry whether other people love or like them. ___ don't take time to figure out if they love or like other people. ___ center their lives around other people. ___ look to relationships to provide all their good feelings. ___ lose interest in their own lives when they love. ___ worry other people will leave them. ___ don't believe they can take care of themselves. ___ stay in relationships that don't work. ___ tolerate abuse to keep people loving them. ___ feel trapped in relationships. ___ leave bad relationships and form new ones that don't work either. ___ wonder if they will ever find love.

POOR COMMUNICATION

Codependents frequently: ___ blame. ___ threaten. ___ coerce. ___ beg. ___ bribe. ___ advise. ___ don't say what they mean. ___ don't mean what they say. ___ don't know what they mean. ___ don't take themselves seriously. ___ think other people don't take the codependents seriously. ___ take themselves too seriously. ___ ask for what they want and need indirectly-sighing, for example. ___ find it difficult to get to the point. ___ aren't sure what the point is. ___ gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect.
___ try to say what they think will please people. ___ try to say what they think will provoke people. ___ try to say what they hope will make people do what they want them to do.
___ eliminate the word no from their vocabulary. ___ talk too much. ___ talk about other people. ___ avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts. ___ say everything is their fault. • say nothing is their fault. ___ believe their opinions don't matter.
___ wait to express their opinions until they know other people's opinions. ___ lie to protect and cover up for people they love. ___ lie to protect themselves. ___ have a difficult time asserting their rights. ___ have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately. ___ think most of what they have to say is unimportant. ___ begin to talk in cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways. ___ apologize for bothering people.

WEAK BOUNDARIES

C-dependents frequently: ___ say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
___ gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things ___ they said they never would. ___ let others hurt them. ___ keep letting people hurt them. ___ wonder why they hurt so badly. ___ complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there. ___ finally get angry. ___ become totally intolerant.

LACK Of TRUST

Codependents: ___don't trust themselves. ___ don't trust their feelings. ___ don't trust their decisions. ___ don't trust other people. ___ try to trust untrustworthy people. ___ think God has abandoned them. ___ lose faith and trust in God.

ANGER

Many codependents: ___ feel very scared, hurt, and angry. ___ live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry. ___ are afraid of their own anger. ___ are frightened of other people's anger. ___ think people will go away if anger enters the picture. ___ think other people make them feel angry. ___ are afraid to make other people feel anger. ___ feel controlled by other people's anger. ___ repress their angry feelings. ___ cry a lot, get depressed, overeat, get sick, do mean and nasty things ___ to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts. ___ punish other people for making the codependents angry. ___ have been shamed for feeling angry. ___ place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry. ___ feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness. ___ feel safer with their anger than with hurt feelings. ___ wonder if they'll ever not be angry.

SEX PROBLEMS

Some codependents: ___ are caretakers in the bedroom. ___ have sex when they don't want to. ___ have sex when they'd rather be held, nurtured, and loved. ¬¬¬___ try to have sex when they're angry or hurt. ___ refuse to enjoy sex because they're so angry at their partner.
____ are afraid of losing control. ___ have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed. ____ withdraw emotionally from their partner. ____ feel sexual revulsion toward their partner.
___ don't talk about it. ___ force themselves to have sex, anyway. ___ reduce sex to a technical act. ___ wonder why they don't enjoy sex. ___ lose interest in sex. ___ make up reasons to abstain. ___ wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the ___ codependent's feelings. ___ have strong sexual fantasies about other people. ___ consider or have an extramarital affair.

MISCELLANEOUS

Codependents tend to: ___ be extremely responsible. ___ be extremely irresponsible.
___ become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don't require sacrifice. ___ find it difficult to feel close to people. ___ find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous. ___ have an overall passive response to codependency-crying, hurt, helplessness. ___ have an overall aggressive response to codependency-violence, anger, dominance. ___ combine passive and aggressive responses. ___ vacillate in decisions and emotions. ___ laugh when they feel like crying. ___ stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts. ___ be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems.
___ be confused about the nature of the problem. ___ cover up, lie, and protect the problem.
___ not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn't bad enough, or they aren't important enough. ___ wonder why the problem doesn't go away.

PROGRESSIVE

In the later, stages of codependency, codependents may: ___ feel lethargic. ___ feel depressed. ___ become withdrawn and isolated. ___ experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure. ___ abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities. ___ feel hopeless. ___ begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in. ___ think about suicide. ___ become violent. ___ become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill. ___ experience an eating disorder (over- or under eating). ___ become addicted to alcohol and other drugs.

January 20, 2007
11:03 pm
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Guest
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Hi MamaC

Nice to see the book study group coming along.

Here is a HTML formatting tip I learned about inserting a line break [br].
I will show with square brackets[br] but you need to use the diamond brackets < to make it work. CODEPENDENT CHARACTERISTICS CARETAKING Codependents may: ___ think and feel responsible for other people - for other peoples feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny.[br]
___ feel anxiety, pity and guilt when other people have a problem.[br]
___ feel compelled-almost forced-to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings.[br]

etc.

___ feel angry when their help isn't effective. anticipate other people's needs.
___ wonder why others don't do the same for them.
___find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves.
___not know what they want and need or, if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important.
___ try to please others instead of themselves.
___find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to themselves.
___ feel safest when giving.
___ feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them.
___ feel sad because they spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them.
___ find themselves attracted to needy people.
___ find needy people attracted to them
___ feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help.
___ abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else.
___ over commit themselves
___ feel harried and pressured.
___ believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them.
___ blame others for the spot the codependents are in,
___ say other people make the codependents feel the way they do.
___ believe other people are making them crazy.
___ feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used.
___ find other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics.

January 20, 2007
11:27 pm
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Guest
Guests

LOW SELF WORTH

Codependents tend to:
___ come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families.
___deny their family was troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional.
___ blame themselves for everything.
___ pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel, look, act, and behave.
___get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize the codependents-something codependents regularly do to themselves.
___reject compliments or praise.
___get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation)
___ feel different from the rest of the world.
___think they're not quite good enough.
___ feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves.
___ fear rejection.
___take things personally
___have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism.
___ feel like victims.
___tell themselves they can't do anything right.
___ be afraid of making mistakes.
___ wonder why they have a tough time making decisions.
___ expect themselves to do everything perfectly.
___ wonder why they can't get anything done to their satisfaction.
___ have a lot of "shoulds."
___ feel a lot of guilt.
___feel ashamed of who they are.
__think their lives aren't worth living.
___ try to help other people live their lives instead.
___ get artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others.
___ get strong feelings of low self-worth-embarrassment, failure, etc. from other people's failures and problems.
___wish good things would happen to them.
___believe good things never will happen.
___believe they don't deserve good things and happiness.
___wish other people would like and love them.
___believe other people couldn't possibly like and love them.
___try to prove they're good enough for other people.
___ settle for being needed.

REPRESSION

Many codependents:
___ push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt.
___ become afraid to let themselves be who they are.
___ appear rigid and controlled.

OBSESSION

Codependents tend to:
___ feel terribly anxious about problems and people.
___ worry about the silliest things.
___ think and talk a lot about other people.
___ lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior.
___ worry.
___ never find answers.
___ check on people.
___ try to catch people in acts of misbehavior.
___ feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems.
___ abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something.
___ focus all their energy on other people and problems.
___ wonder why they never have any energy
___ wonder why they aren't get things done.

CONTROLLING

Many codependents:
___ have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment.
___ become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally.
___ don't see or deal with their fear of loss of control.
___ think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave.
___ try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination.
___ eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people's anger.
___ get frustrated and angry.
___ feel controlled by events and people.

DENIAL

Codependents tend to:
___ ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening.
___ pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are.
___ tell themselves things will be better tomorrow.
___ stay busy so they don't have to think about things.
___ get confused.
___ get depressed or sick.
___ go to doctors and get tranquilizers.
___ become workaholics.
___ spend money compulsively.
___ overeat.
___ pretend those things aren't happening, either.
___ watch problems get worse.
___ believe lies.
___ lie to themselves.
___ wonder why they feel like they're going crazy.

DEPENDENCY

Many codependents:
___ don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves.
___ look for happiness outside themselves.
___ latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness.
___ feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think.
___ provides their happiness.
___ didn't feel love and approval from their parents.
___ don't love themselves.
___ believe other people can't or don't love them.
___ desperately seek love and approval.
___ often seek love from people incapable of loving.
___ believe other people are never there for them.
___ equate love with pain.
___ feel they need people more than they want them.
___ try to prove they're good enough to be loved.
___ don't take time to see if other people are good for them.
___ worry whether other people love or like them.
___ don't take time to figure out if they love or like other people.
___ center their lives around other people.
___ look to relationships to provide all their good feelings.
___ lose interest in their own lives when they love.
___ worry other people will leave them.
___ don't believe they can take care of themselves.
___ stay in relationships that don't work.
___ tolerate abuse to keep people loving them.
___ feel trapped in relationships.
___ leave bad relationships and form new ones that don't work either.
___ wonder if they will ever find love.

POOR COMMUNICATION

Codependents frequently:
___ blame.
___ threaten.
___ coerce.
___ beg.
___ bribe.
___ advise.
___ don't say what they mean.
___ don't mean what they say.
___ don't know what they mean.
___ don't take themselves seriously.
___ think other people don't take the codependents seriously.
___ take themselves too seriously.
___ ask for what they want and need indirectly-sighing, for example.
___ find it difficult to get to the point.
___ aren't sure what the point is.
___ gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect.
___ try to say what they think will please people.
___ try to say what they think will provoke people.
___ try to say what they hope will make people do what they want them to do.
___ eliminate the word no from their vocabulary.
___ talk too much.
___ talk about other people.
___ avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts.
___ say everything is their fault.
___ say nothing is their fault.
___ believe their opinions don't matter.
___ wait to express their opinions until they know other people's opinions.
___ lie to protect and cover up for people they love.
___ lie to protect themselves.
___ have a difficult time asserting their rights.
___ have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately.
___ think most of what they have to say is unimportant.
___ begin to talk in cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways.
___ apologize for bothering people.

WEAK BOUNDARIES

C-dependents frequently:
___ say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
___ gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they never would.
___ let others hurt them.
___ keep letting people hurt them.
___ wonder why they hurt so badly.
___ complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
___ finally get angry.
___ become totally intolerant.

LACK Of TRUST

Codependents:
___don't trust themselves.
___ don't trust their feelings.
___ don't trust their decisions.
___ don't trust other people.
___ try to trust untrustworthy people.
___ think God has abandoned them.
___ lose faith and trust in God.

ANGER

Many codependents:
___ feel very scared, hurt, and angry.
___ live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry.
___ are afraid of their own anger.
___ are frightened of other people's anger.
___ think people will go away if anger enters the picture.
___ think other people make them feel angry.
___ are afraid to make other people feel anger.
___ feel controlled by other people's anger.
___ repress their angry feelings.
___ cry a lot, get depressed, overeat, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts.
___ punish other people for making the codependents angry.
___ have been shamed for feeling angry.
___ place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry.
___ feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness.
___ feel safer with their anger than with hurt feelings.
___ wonder if they'll ever not be angry.

SEX PROBLEMS

Some codependents:
___ are caretakers in the bedroom.
___ have sex when they don't want to.
___ have sex when they'd rather be held, nurtured, and loved.
___ try to have sex when they're angry or hurt.
___ refuse to enjoy sex because they're so angry at their partner.
____ are afraid of losing control.
___ have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed.
____ withdraw emotionally from their partner.
____ feel sexual revulsion toward their partner.
___ don't talk about it.
___ force themselves to have sex, anyway.
___ reduce sex to a technical act.
___ wonder why they don't enjoy sex.
___ lose interest in sex.
___ make up reasons to abstain.
___ wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the codependent's feelings.
___ have strong sexual fantasies about other people.
___ consider or have an extramarital affair.

MISCELLANEOUS

Codependents tend to:
___ be extremely responsible.
___ be extremely irresponsible.
___ become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don't require sacrifice.
___ find it difficult to feel close to people.
___ find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous.
___ have an overall passive response to codependency-crying, hurt, helplessness.
___ have an overall aggressive response to codependency - violence, anger, dominance.
___ combine passive and aggressive responses.
___ vacillate in decisions and emotions.
___ laugh when they feel like crying.
___ stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts.
___ be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems.
___ be confused about the nature of the problem.
___ cover up, lie, and protect the problem.
___ not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn't bad enough, or they aren't important enough.
___ wonder why the problem doesn't go away.

PROGRESSIVE

In the later, stages of codependency, codependents may:
___ feel lethargic.
___ feel depressed.
___ become withdrawn and isolated.
___ experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure.
___ abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities.
___ feel hopeless.
___ begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in.
___ think about suicide.
___ become violent.
___ become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill.
___ experience an eating disorder (over- or under eating).
___ become addicted to alcohol and other drugs.

January 20, 2007
11:48 pm
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mamacinnamon
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kroika... thank you, thank you. I didn't want to double space everything and it turn into a long ordeal and I didn't know how to do that. I'll practice and know how from now on. You are truly a blessing to me today. Muah. You're the best.

Ok, so this day has been a rough one.

__I remembered cakes an hour before they were due, but had 2 hours to finish.
__Then hubby thought he needed attention.
__Oh, I pray this works for me.

January 20, 2007
11:50 pm
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OH YEA it works.
THANK YOU Kroika
To be honest, what I do know I learned from my daugher and Jigs
This is just way to cool.
Oh happy night.

January 21, 2007
2:27 am
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glad to be of help! It isn't *always* codep to lend a hand, eh?! :o)

Another time-saver is to copy the [br] and then just keep pasting it in wherever you need it. There's probably an even easier way, but I am pretty much a techno-peasant, and rather pleased at the few little tricks I have managed to discover!

hugs to you and carry on! love, kroika

January 21, 2007
12:42 pm
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soprano2
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Looks good, ladies. Glad to see the teamwork.

Looking forward to all the posts on this thread. Just to let everyone know, you do'nt have to wait until Thursday to post on here. You can feel free to post whenever you like.

There is a group of people who will be posting on Thursday evening 10:30 est (you all can figure out the rest of the times). It is a great experience if you can make it.

If not, feel free to post whenever you have a moment and share your thoughts and ideas.

Looking forward to reading and sharing with everyone this upcoming week.

s2

January 21, 2007
3:48 pm
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mamacinnamon
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Thank you S2 for lettin folks know that. Is that something I should print w/ each lesson? Please do let me know.

I am having a little problem w/ my list. Do I put what i was then or who I am now or both? It makes a total complete difference which way it looks. lol. I choose the good looks, but I want to be honest.

January 21, 2007
5:05 pm
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thewall
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Good questions.........

Can people change? Only if they want to, and only when they are aware that something needs to change.

There are times when we can be miserable and still not want to change. This is probably due to fear. There is some sort of comfort, unconsciously, of how we are, even though it does bring us pain.

I for one need to change my need to help others. It brings me pleasure to be so helpful and so nice. Yet at times I am the one who gets hurt and potentially my life can become chaotic when I help someone who only wants to take from me. It can be heartbreaking to be so helpful and yet continue to get used.

Personally I am sick of it and fear trusting any friends again. But I dont know if I am ready to change my helpfulness. Does helping someone mean you are co dependant every time you help them? I guess thats what I dont want to give up. I enjoy helping others. Its actually my profession too. How do you know when helping is being codependant or just being a friend?

My favorite saying is "Nothing changes until the pain of staying the same, becomes more than the pain of changing".

I guess thats where I am right now. Its like "whew, got out of that situation. Now I wont ever do that again." but then months later I find myself right back in a similar situation....helping someone at almost any price. Problem is, there are way too many creeps out there who will use and abuse you at the snap of a finger and think nothing of it. I swear I dont know how they live with themselves but they do, seemingly with no problem. Makes me sick.

January 21, 2007
8:34 pm
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soprano2
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mama--

sometimes it is good to take a look at where you were versus where you are now. It is up to you if you want to share it.

I think that it would be inspiring for those people who are on their way but not as far as you (I don't mean that as bluntly as it sounds--I know we are all on a different path, but hopefully you know what I mean.)

Either way, I am looking forward to exploring this chapter sometime this week.

s2

January 21, 2007
8:41 pm
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the wall--

That's a great saying. I am going to steal it and put it everywhere I look as a reminder for my own situation.

And, yes, the creeps come out of the walls sometime.

Do you think that you are also a creep magnet? I used to think that I had "If you are a creep, come talk to me" tatooed on my forehead.

Just a little light humor. I know how you feel

January 22, 2007
8:18 am
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thewall
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soprano2,

LOL yes I do think I have that tatoo.

But on a more serious note, I do think manipulators sit back and watch us, looking for "a nice person", someone who doesnt make waves, someone who does things for others even when they have a ton of things to do, someone who just cant say no, no matter how much they should. And they look for people who has poor eye contact, who can't look them in the eye. And then, the go in for the kill..smoothly manipulating us til they know they have us.

Manipulators "shop" for their victims, just as child molesters often do. They look for people who cant stand up for themselves, they look for people who have very little support from family or friends, they look for people who dont have a whole lot of money to pay for atty fees if they should need it, they look for people who dont have a DR or ATTY or police officer in the family bc they know the risk of getting their butt kicked is too high.

You would think that I would be able to see them coming a mile away by now, but unfortunately eventually some other smooth operator comes along and *bam* I am back to being overly nice, bending over backwards for them.

I was watching Magnum PI reruns the other day (what a hottie--ok I'm old) and something he said really hit me.. he said "none of us are infallable at judging charecter."

So true Magnum, so true..
......If only HE would come and take me away to a far away Hawaiian island and save me from myself. *sigh*

January 22, 2007
10:53 am
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soprano2
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I bet that we are around the same age, because I think that he is a hottie too. And I remember watching that show not in reruns.

On your serious note, I agree with your shopping idea. I have been shopped. And boy, have I paid for it over the years.

And, not only are people allowed to do this, the punishment for sever cases is very light.

Ok, a restraining order, a protective order. Maybe a couple days in jail? That is what they get for severe cases. Not enough in my book.

And we are left to pick up the pieces.

Not to mention the not so severe ones. The ones that teeter on the abusive state. Or they know that if they hit you, they will get in trouble, so they just toy with your emotions--the scars are still very real, but harder to see.

I know how you feel about escaping. Sometimes I feel like that everyday.

January 22, 2007
2:25 pm
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mamacinnamon
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NOTICE: Please refrain from posting exact context from the book. I thought the copyright rule pertained to chapters in their entirety, but it actually pertains to ANY material including lists. So, I boo boo'd and won't happen again.

You may quote a line or so when discussing it but not lists or paragraphs or chapters. You can put which of the things pertain to you, but individually and not as this list. ie... In Misc I have a problem w/ this, this, and this. Do not reproduce the list.

Thank ya'll. Just wanted you to know this for safety sake.

w/love,
mamaC

January 22, 2007
2:31 pm
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soprano2
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Mama--

actually the copyright protection law of 1972 allows you to copy 15% of the information as long as the information is not in order (like you can't type all of pages 1-4 and then leave the other 85% off.)

I know this because I work with copyrighted stuff all of the time.

So the list in its entirety is off limits, but you can focus on one part of the list a week or something like that.

(You are doing a great job by the way.)

s2

January 22, 2007
4:15 pm
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on my way
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I am impressed, you all have gone really far! This is great! Can't you quote if you sight the author and the book and put things in quotes though? Like for example if I wanted to say, In Beverly Beattie's book "Codependent No More" she says on page 22 that, " ". I think this is legal isn't it?

January 22, 2007
4:17 pm
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soprano2
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That is the way that it is supposed to be done. That way, they are given the credit.

Hopefully, everyone owns the book and can take a look at it. If not, I encourage everyone that is joining us to either purchase it, or check it out at the library.

January 22, 2007
6:16 pm
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site coordinator
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Hey Everybody,

I send my apologies, but I truly don't want to become involved in a copyright dispute. 85%, 15%, whatever the case may be, it will eventually be copyright infringement if pages are posted at intervals.

Please, let's not get into the nitty gritty of that. If you'd like to paraphrase, discuss, and point to a particular topic or page, that's excellent.

But posting pages or even parts of a page (a paragraph or more), I would not like done on this site.

Everyone who joins should have the book, and paraphrasing is a great learning tool. It makes you think, and it allows others to "check" your thinking/learning.

Thanks, SC

January 22, 2007
7:51 pm
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risingfromtheashes
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maybe you guys can keep this book club going by saying that the partipants have the book, read chapter so and so...and come back for a discussion.

then you can open a discussion regarding the stuff on page xyz and how it makes us all feel.

then we can post our own thoughts, without copyright infringement.

I think it would be wonderful to post quotes and stuff from the book, perhaps to prompt others to get the book after seeing how invaluable it is.

but maybe just the discussions alone would get people thinking about buying it.

I have it and will participate more as time allows.

January 22, 2007
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didn't mean to start anything by my comments. Just am aware of the laws. Sorry.

I don't want anyone to get into trouble either.

s2

January 23, 2007
1:21 am
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I really see a lot of these characteristics in myself. I'm going to counseling but they have not called me for an appoinment but twice in 3 months. in the mean time I've lost my job so I now have medicaid .me and my husband are trying to get help.

January 23, 2007
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thewall
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Rain,

You have to call to make your own appointment. I've never heard of a counseling office calling to make your appointments for you. Thats unhealthy, its like a mother taking care of a child. You are an adult now.
Take your counseling scheduling into your own hands. Dont wait for them. You deserve the help you want and need. 🙂

January 23, 2007
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Today, I read Chapter 4. At the end is the Activities list. For the first time, I went through and placed a o, 1, 2 besides the characteristics I have. It was an interesting exercise. So for me, I have now identified the behaviors that cause me problems. Now it's figuring out what I want to do about it.

Who's codependent? I am 🙂

How do I feel about changing myself? I am open to changing my behaviors that aren't helping me survive. I want to live!

What do I think will happen if I began to change? Change takes practice. I am sure I will experience discomfort at becoming aware of these patterns that need changing. Acceptance that I possess these patterns. I won't do it perfectly. The old patterns of behavior are stronger because of repetitive use so I will need to keep practicing and changing a day at a time.

Do I think I can change? Yes, I have the desire and the tools for change.

January 23, 2007
1:24 pm
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"Each person is responsible for him- or herself. It involves learning one new behavior that we will devote ourselves to: taking care of ourselves."

I am going to practice letting go of "being frightened by other people's anger".

I didn't cause it. I can't control it. I can't cure it.

Others are entitled to their feelings. Feelings need to be expressed. My responsibility to myself is to have boundaries for myself. I can remove myself from others anger if lashed out at. I can listen to someone express anger without personalizing it. I can tell that person that I am uncomfortable with the way they are expressing their anger. I can affirm that anger is an emotion that does not have control over me. In the past, I didn't have options when my mother would direct her angry outbursts. As an adult, I can chose to feel my fear and try something different.

January 23, 2007
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MJ – thanks for starting off, it gave me the nudge I needed to pick up the book again, I glanced at the chapter, but didn’t really read it.

I like the point the author made…I kept skipping to the list of characteristics reading them feeling bad then shutting the book…I guess I took all the negatives personally and felt like I was a bad person. But after mj posted I went and read the beginning of the chapter instead of skipping to the characteristics. Reading the intro of the chapter she makes a very important point, that we (I) am not bad, that we do these things as a means to protect ourselves, to survive – emotionally, mentally and sometimes physically.

Interesting, how our self preservation techniques, are now hurting us.

It says the first step toward changing our self’s is awareness. I guess I am aware by reading so I’ve gotten this far. I don’t know about acceptance which is the second step. Does this mean I have to accept the list of characteristics, the lists of bad behaviors, which I posses? If I am being truly honest here.

How do I feel about changing myself? For me it’s scary, because it’s like I don’t want to fail…I feel like I already have, yet a part of me wants to have peace, to love and be loved, to feel happy.

What do you think will happen if you begin to change and do you think you can change?

At work we use to do the same old same old, same people in jobs for years etc. Then we got bought out by a company. We re-organized, you should have seen the first re-org. Boy change was hard for everyone, everyone took it personal etc. All the employees from the company, just pushed back, it was hard to change the way everything was done for years. It affected both the folks from the new company folks just trying to help and make things better, and the existing company who kept pushing back, and having a bad attitude. Now it’s every 2 years, and were ready for a re-organization, because it means new faces, new processes, new attitude etc. Now we look at it as a better opportunity. Change is good, at least that how it is viewed at work. They don’t let people get stagnet, in one place, not good for employees, career etc. and not good for the company, need new ideas always changing for the better.

Why did I bring it up… because I think for me, change will be hard, it will be hard changing my behaviors, I think I’m not disciplined enough to do this on my own. Can I change, well I guess if I put a lot of effort I can, but honestly I think subconsciously I will push back….Why? I think because new is scary, change is scary there is fear associated with it.

I honestly don’t know what will happen if I change…I am just scared, because what I’ve done is all I know. And yes, some of the behaviors are not good….but it’s all I’ve ever known.

Okay I will now go and write numbers next to characteristics....

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