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Codependency is a myth
January 26, 2005
5:02 pm
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sewunique
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To Phalic and any one else,

I have an interesting theory. Just want to share it, from what it is worth.

We all have our own way of expressing things. We all react differently to the situations of the posters, often due to our own circumstances or experiences.

What I have found interesting, is when someone gets a bit off kilter, shall we say, there is something 'bugging' that person. something is happening to them, often they do not realize it until they really start to verbalize differently. Sometimes, they even take a 'hiatus' from these threads for awhile, until they are able to come back. So my point being here, is when someone posts angerily, they have something to say. And we are here for everyone. Now I am at peace with all this. Thank you for allowing me this space and for reading, or not.

Hey Everyone,

I have been on line reading Plato's Allegory of the Cave, once more. You'all know that I relate to that with referencing and myself.

Here we are again; from the darkness into the light. Taking no prisoners for now. They (prisoners), may be freed from their realities and chains. Some takes longer. Some never get it.

January 26, 2005
5:12 pm
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Sorry. I still can't get the picture out of my mind of some guy who can't stand underwear, with six-pack abs finally ripping open his two-sizes-too-small Levi's 501's while he's got a woody... Sorry again...

I think that dependence, in and of itself is quite a conundrum. We are social beings. Does this require some level of dependence? I would have to say yes. It's the level of dependence that seems to get us all fucked up.

In my opinion, we don't think enough about independence. That is to say, finding ways to meet our spiritual needs without depending on another being to do that for us. I don't think it's okay to depend on someone else for your spiritual needs--not even a "higher power." I think we sell ourselves short when we believe that we can't find the big spiritual answers we seek unless someone or something else leads us there. I think we underestimate our spiritual strength and power when we depend on the love, kindness, caring, trust, respect, (or all the opposites thereof) to make us feel like we are living spirits.

We can look to others for guidance. We can see what is happening in our world and use this information as a spiritual tool. We can interact from others in order to further our own experience, knowledge, and thus, increase our spiritual strength. I'm not trying to say that we should all be indifferent. I'm trying to say that we can be observers with the power to make changes only for the sake of ourselves. We can't change others. We can't change any "higher power." The only things we can change are our own minds, bodies, and souls. The result of such change is an energy exchange. Sometimes we put "positive" energy out there. Sometimes we put "negative" energy out there. It's the combined energy of all our spirits that, I believe, will untimately lead to change as once the energy builds to a certain level, balance shifts and things "move" if you will.

I'm rambling, but that's the basics of what I'm trying to say...

Love,

Ren'ai

January 26, 2005
5:13 pm
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Sew close and not Sew far away.
Sew with words Sews what she says.
Sew closer now and closer soon.
So we all may reap what Sew will Sew.

January 26, 2005
5:16 pm
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...and this is why I believe that "we" in some way caused the tsunami...

Ren'ai

January 26, 2005
5:26 pm
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sewunique
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Phalic,

A play on words with my nickname? Cute.

Then again, if I see myself as insecure and codependent, I could be: A) overly, unreasonalbly flattered OR B) hurt that you jest at me?

Neither, I assure you. But I could not resist!

Sew;)

January 26, 2005
5:33 pm
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Re'nai,

Interesting.

I would submit that no man is an island. None of us can ever truly be "independent" of any of the others. However, as an alcoholic in recovery, I will say that my sobriety is contingent on a reliance with God.

That reliance on God will never divorce me from the rest of the world but better serves to guide me through it, along with my interaction with others.

Am I reliant on others for my well being? Yes. They to some degree are reliant on me as well. They have come to expect to see me in the morning and enjoy my company. Do I take more than I am giving? No.

No man is an island. Even the wealthiest of us is reliant on the consideration of other's to suit his needs. If he acts despicably towards others and steps on the toes of his fellows he is likely to recieve the same treatment in kind. To the outsider looking in he may seem cloisterred and unassailable but as he is living and breathing his inherent vulnerability is exposed.

There are those who can live off of the land and who can choose to isolate themselves, divorcing themselves from community and its provisions there in. They, may be the only true characture of honest independence I can fathom. Even they are reliant, however, on that which surrounds them and their cooperation within that environment for their well-being.

January 26, 2005
5:34 pm
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sewunique
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Ren'ai,

"...and this is why I believe that "we" in some way caused the tsunami... "

Interesting concept. Many would agree with you. Then many would be there to disagree. Isn't it great that we can agree to disagree?

I like your viewpoint about the spirituality. However, for my own piece of mind, I add that wholeness of ones' self and to have our needs met, we need to take care of our mind, physical and social needs as well. It's one big package. One without the other doesn't work. If one of those needs is lacking or is not healthy, we suffer in the other needs. But that is just my take on it with my background.

Sew

January 26, 2005
5:35 pm
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Sew,

C) encouraged to share more of your thoughts. You are among friends afterall.

PL

January 26, 2005
5:42 pm
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Hmmm...

Causing the Tsunami. I think "we" might be taking on too much responsibility. Are you suggesting that in our constant toil and tribulations that there was some collective action...

Wait. This discussion is becoming enjoyably existensential. Has anyone else seen I Heart Huckabees?

Perhaps this digression is needed to further the context of the argument. I withdraw my objection. Carry on.

January 26, 2005
5:44 pm
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"....I am a rock, I an an island..." Simon and Garfunkel song relates to this.

At times, I relate to it, in my mind's eye, for self preservation for brief periods of time, just to isolate, remove myself from the situation. Until I can get a handle on things, or a better perspective.

"There are those who can live off of the land and who can choose to isolate themselves, divorcing themselves from community and its provisions there in. They, may be the only true characture of honest independence I can fathom. Even they are reliant, however, on that which surrounds them and their cooperation within that environment for their well-being."

Ah, but do they "own" the land? Do we in actuality own anything on this earth? Or are we just "borrowing" it, time, space, until we move on to another existence? Even if we believe that existence is only back to the earth?

Sew

January 26, 2005
5:54 pm
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No. But since you are voicing favorites here....have you ever read Joseph Conrad's stories? "Heart of Darkness" is my favorite. I did a whole semester on that single book.

May not even be relevant here, just had to pipe it in.

Then I was thinking about what you said Ren'ai, about the earth is now tilted and inch, we are loosing more time every day. My thought was; we loose seconds every breath we take, constantly. We begin to age as soon as we are born. Our days are numbered. The titling of the world gone a wry is all a part of this experience.

And I am not saying the victims of Tsunami are not to be recognized as a World tradgedy. It was. It is. And will be forever.

Sew

January 26, 2005
5:59 pm
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So, here's what I love about the world I chose to live in this time around...

No man is an island, and every man is an island.

When the time of my transition comes, I take with me only what remains in my spirit, that, and I suppose 21 grams of "something." Have any of you seen the movie "21 Grams?" Obviously, I'm a person who finds deep spirituality in the common media of film-making and if I get on this soap box you'll never get me off.

It is scientifically demonstrated that we all lose exactly 21 grams at our moment of death. What is that 21 grams? I submit that it is our life force. It's "energy" that moves from our bodies into another realm.

Phalic,

What I would say to you is that at this time you believe your sobriety is contigent upon your relationship with your higher power and you are right. Your reality is yours and yours alone. It is not for me to question. What I would say, however, is that YOU made the choice to be sober. YOU continue to make the choice to be sober every day. Free will, baby. That's where the rubber meets the road of life!!! Were it not for your choice, then your higher power would have no say in whether or not you are sober. Thus, it's you who keeps you sober by making the decision each and every day to allow your higher power to guide you. Give yourself the credit you so rightfully deserve!!!

I gotta ask, are you a being who chooses to free his phallus, or a woman who likes to free them?

Sew,

I know there would be many people who would disagree with me about "us" being the cause of the tsunami and they would have every right to disagree. I believe it happened because "we" are evolving spiritually. The more we evolve, the greater the energy shift. Not only are spiritual things impacted by these shifts, but so are physical things.

There are HUGE numbers of people out there in the world now who are saying "What the hell are we doing to each other?" We are feeling lost, like "What can I do about all this war, pestilence, evil, abuse?" We are sick of seeing each other murdered, raped, and starved to death. We are not indifferent. We put our energy forth and say "We desire change!"

Wham!!!

Change happened. Think about it! Our world has shifted! From my perspective this is a huge deal because I don't believe in "accidents" and we have yet to begin to comprehend the way this will truly impact our planet. Not only that, but I believe with all my heart that this is only the beginning of the shift. There is more to come and before it's all over with, it will have reached us all on a personal level as individuals because we are all coming to a crossroads. We will either change or die and move on to some place else. Since death is inevitable, I choose to hope for change...

In the infamous words of Eric Cartman, "I luv you guys..."

Ren'ai

January 26, 2005
6:06 pm
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Sew,

Zippo lighters and cheap sunglasses.

In a since ownership only spans a person's lifetime and even in that context may be transitory in nature.

This discussion, like the isolationist having prepared sparsely for his journey, has gone woefully off course.

Codependency is a myth.

PL

January 26, 2005
6:19 pm
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sewunique
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Phalic,

"This discussion, like the isolationist having prepared sparsely for his journey, has gone woefully off course."

"Wait. This discussion is becoming enjoyably existensential. Has anyone else seen I Heart Huckabees?

Perhaps this digression is needed to further the context of the argument. I withdraw my objection. Carry on."

It happens!!! But, your thread, carry on.

Ren'ai,

I believe something did cause the Tsunami. World forces, a Higher Power? Either, or both. But, it is not the end. What that time frame will it be in for more occurances, I do not know. I just do not feel in voicing my religious beliefs into this topic, but will just leave you with this: Read Revelations. That is my opinion.

Sew

January 26, 2005
6:22 pm
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Free Phalus?

I'm a guy, coincidentally roughly matching your description in an earlier post only without the imposing promenant member on display for all to see.

I'm probably not as built as I'd like to be but I work out weighing in at 155 pounds and 5'11".

Free Will(y)? I'm liable to get another citation from the site administrator for getting this cute with double entendre' but I agree with the free will take. You're right, seemingly, about a lot of things.

So in my mind I'm seeing a woman with an ovular European face, hair color brunette, brown eyes, olive skin, and 26 years old. Your hair is short and straight and falls neatly, with no bangs, around your face. Your eye brows are thick but not out of line you are 5'5" and weighing in around 120 pounds and wearing black slacks that flare at the bottom with a white t-shirt, v-neck covered by a light brown button up sweater.

January 26, 2005
6:28 pm
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Sew,

You're right. Carry on.

Re'nai & Sew,

Interesting on the Tsunami energy theory.

I have not read Heart of Darkness. I've seen apocalypse now and the documentary about its creation that shares the same title as the book.

My understanding is that the book is quite different from the movie.

PL

January 26, 2005
6:43 pm
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Twinks,

So are you trying to bait me or just giving me a taste of my own medicine?

PL

January 26, 2005
6:59 pm
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Phalic,

You are too funny. But I can't be on here for any longer right now. How far we have come today? Friends.

But if you'd really like to delve further on this topic, please do so. Also, did you review the thread up here titled: Is it Possible? The beginning of the thread posts are really arguing the point of what is codependency and does it truly exist. I started the thread, then could not return to it as I was not at a place at that time to continue a serious debate about it. But I find it very interesting reading!

I have not seen the movie "Apcalypse Now. What is it about? Refresh my weary memory. I may go and rent it.

The Heart of Darkness is about man's journey on a ship into the Congo, from Conrad's own raw experiences. He plays a mythical quality into the
story. "Many critics have seen it as a journey into Marlow's" (the narrator, story teller)..."subconcious, or ...". It is about self- knowledge and finding the darkness in others and possibly ourselves. Another of my favorites is "Marlowe" about a guy sitting on a bench watching the world, watching and thinking about life.

You guys keep at it. Where's Twinks? Twinks will be back, reading. Later all!

Sew

January 26, 2005
6:59 pm
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Twink,

In response to your question I have taken clips of some of my responses to the input of others on this thread that I thought best encapsulated my position. It is by no means complete but the discussion had digressed to a point that it may be difficult for someone rejoining the conversation to sift through all of it so I'm just doing a bit to catch you up on my major point.

Human nature.

Unfortunatly what has come to pass is that these are considerred things, in our nature, that we have to actively suppress in order to achieve an ideal versus codependency.

The result is chaos and an inability to distinguish right from wrong. The ideal to be achieved, in very many ways, resembles that of sociopathology. There is more to say that supports my view but I'd like to hear more of your thoughts.

Alcoholics Anonymous, a once thriving concern, is now irrelevant. It has become poluted with multiple streams of thought that have corroded the Big Book's meaning and sabotaged a message that could once be conveyed with merit and accountability.

The codependence movement, among others, is partly responsible for the loss of efficacy within that organization. In arguing my point, and challenging the rest of you in this regard, my intention is to better acquaint myself with my enemy.

PL

January 26, 2005
7:02 pm
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Hi Twinks,

Knew you'd be back;)

Sew

January 26, 2005
7:17 pm
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Hi Sew,

Yes, I've read the book of Revelations. I have also read a very interesting book by a man named Ed Riemer. The title of the book is called "The Unveiling." It's all about the book of Revelations, and gives a virtual scripture by scripture breakdown of this complex bit of writing. I found the book facinating--read it more than once, in fact.

Phalic,

I want to apologize for sending this thread into a direction it was never intended to take. I do understand your position regarding codependency, and I think there's a fine line between "depending" on each other in a healthy way and turning that dependence into a role that we were never meant to fill.

Out of respect for your thread, I'll start another here so that perhaps if you and others are interested, we can consider some of the deeper topics that have surfaced here.

For the record, I have enjoyed this thread immensely, and will explain why in the new thread.

Love to all,

Ren'ai

January 26, 2005
7:25 pm
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Twinks,

Seems like we're reconciled enough to continue. If you would like I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

PL

January 26, 2005
8:06 pm
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Well guys, this is so interesting!!
Hi twinks!! long time no hear from!! You sure are keeping a tight lid on your comments lately. I miss you and them!!

Ren'ai, good call here!

Sew, I really admire the way you banter. If I have not said that before LET IT BE SAID NOW!!!! Your stuff is awesome.

And Phalic, My favorite shot is barenyaeger. It has the most phalic bottle!! LOL

Anyway, twinks has covered this issue very often and i too am ambivelent on the topic. There was a time when I did not know I was codep or should I say not labeled. In thisa time I instinctively fought off the garbage in my psyche. Knowing has caused some missteps and backwash. Now though, I've come to view the part of me that accepts codep as the teacher. It allows me to view things differnetly but, I am lucky. I am luck I have strength, fortitude, intelligence, and GOOD LOOKS!!!!

Being labeled codep for most people is not a good thing. They become what they believe they are and this is sad. For me, I'm workin on being who I want to be. I realize though, the codep can interfere. Now, knowing this helps me see it sooner and do something about focusing. Lucky me!

BTW, Ren'ai, I am so in agreement about our causing the tsunami, on many levels too. You know we are like thinkers in the spiritual realm.

Love and peace to you all and remember these are just my thoughts!!!!!

January 26, 2005
8:49 pm
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Hmmm.

January 26, 2005
9:23 pm
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Hi PL,

Interesting nickname by the way.

Kind of a troublemaker aren't you?

We're actually a pretty sweet and sensitive bunch around here, so you'll probably do better if if you tone down the sarcasm. You can get away with lecturing and speechifyin'. I do it all the time. But it's best not to try to make an entire group of people feel stupid at once--almost always backfires. Save that for the truly dumbass, irresponsible ones. We get them from time to time, too.

Anyway, I've taken this one on before, and slightly agree with the title of the thread. Except that Codependency theory isn't really sufficently coherent or well thought out enough to be called a myth.

It's definitely a shaky theory with sloppy language and that has been written about.

But unfortunately it is a language that a lot of people use, so we have be able to meet 'em where they are.

Now their ARE some people who have a pathological need to fix everyones problems and feel guilty when they can't. And there ARE people who are excessively dependent on others, and just wilt if everyone doesn't like them. It might be that the DSM IV language of "Dependent Personality" is more appropriate in those cases.

I have one main problem with the language of codependency though, and it is a major. fucking. problem. What I hate is when the language of codependency is used to explain why people are victimized, why victims are re-victimized. In other words, I hate psuedo scientific language being used to justify abuse and domestic violence, being used as a means of victim blaming.

I'm not saying that some people do not take on waaaay to much "responsibility." Amrtyrdom is also a form of manipulation.

But I do believe that if there were no abusers, we would hear a lot less talk about people's problems with "codependency."

And when I do hear someone worried about their "codependency," the FIRST thing I do is make sure we aren't really dealing with a case of abuse.

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