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Can Consciousness Exist Outside the Human Brain?
October 30, 2006
2:40 pm
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WD

Further, on July 26 you said that "I beleive its impossible for external C to exist".

Why did YOU make that statement when you cant prove it?

Can you apply some of your standards to yourself? You wrote just now:

>> What I am saying guest since you have made, with a tone of absolute certainty, that it is "impossible" for "external human consciousness" to exist outside of a human brain that it is YOUR responsibility to present evidence supporting your powerful statement. << Now you're putting yourself into a deeper hole than before, WD. That happens when you try to please people and lie. That kind of stuff doesnt get past by me. Now - according to your OWN statement, it is YOUR responsibility to preent evidence of your powerful statement that "its impossible for external conciousness to exist". Dont dig holes for yourself, WD. You're supposed to get out of them. Fulfil your 'responsibility' now.

October 30, 2006
3:13 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Guest,

I do not "claim" that human consciousness exists in any form outside of the human brain.

I have no desire to debate that idea and no desire to "prove it." Like I said, I have no idea if it is true.

I am just saying that I suspect that it is possible.

October 30, 2006
3:22 pm
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Guest,

It seems like you are intentionally misrepresenting my words.

I offered that I believed, as a personal opinion that consciousness requires a brain.

That's my opinion-it may be correct or incorrect. -I don't have to offer evidence or prove it to anyone.

Ratgher than rag my ass about my offerring that opinion you might do better to try to draw me out as to what I was getting at there.

You, however, are saying that something is absolutely this way or that and anyone who disagrees with you is stupid or deluded or something.

How the fuck do you know that something is absoutely impossible?

Finally, if you insist on continuing disrespectfully attribute to me unwholesome motives that are not actually mine, then I am going to start giving you the silent treatment again.

"That happens when you try to please people and lie. "

Please take that back right now.

October 30, 2006
4:32 pm
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Worried_Dad
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To me, this is not a debate. It is good-natured speculation.

October 30, 2006
6:09 pm
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WD

>> That's my opinion-it may be correct or incorrect. -I don't have to offer evidence or prove it to anyone. << Yes I knew you'd say that. Fine, its also my "belief" that conciuosness requires a brain. You like fighting with people eh? What were you in your previous life, a rooster? >> I do not "claim" that human consciousness exists in any form outside of the human brain. << I dont care if you were trying to prove a point or not, but the fact is you lied when you said that you knew that evidence exists that supports the theory of external conciousness. You cant play games like that. Your statements will be taken for what they mean. You cant later say "I was kidding, just trying to prove a point". The fact is, you made two contradicting statements and yes, you had forgotten that on July 26 you had stated your disbelief in External conciousness. Then you tell me a few days ago that the research exists. Nice going. >>> How the _ do you know that something is absoutely impossible? << So do you agree then there might be a nine headed Kitten living inside my monitor ? Why do you keep ignoring my question? This is absolutely not possible, now, right? Answer the question. My next post to you will just contain the question, if you ignore it again. Good luck, lol. See WD, if I make you mad, its I who won, not you. Same goes for Tez.

October 30, 2006
6:35 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Ummm, guest...

I don't lie.

No Guest,

I never said that consciousness could not exist outside the human brain. I said that in *my opinion,* which might be correct or incorrect, it could not.

I do not believe the brain must be made of human flesh however. I was very clear about that.

I've given you three entire fields of research to choose from guest--what more do you want?

My question: Do you want to participate in this converstaion or merely function as a troll and a vandal? Would you consider please posting in a polite and civilized manner rather than in a mean, disruptive, unkind or abusive manner? Can you please choose to play nicely with others?

October 30, 2006
6:37 pm
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I do not find the question about a nine headed kitten to be an interesting question or one worth persuing. It is a non-issue.

October 30, 2006
7:56 pm
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WD

Whats the difference between these 2 statements?

"External consciousness cannot exist outside the human brain."

"In my opinion, external conciousness cannot exist outside the brain".

How is the first statement not an "opinion" as well?

October 30, 2006
8:13 pm
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Look guest,

I don't care about the difference between those statements-those are your words, not mine.

What you are doing is putting words in my mouth , depicting me as having meant to say things that I never meant to say and then taking issue with me about things I never said.

Why dont you work with the exact quotes?

Here is the exact. fucking. quote:

"Yes, I believe that it is impossible for consciousness to exist outside of a brain. But I also believe that it is possible to make a brain out of things other than human flesh."

You have two "I believes" there. I was and am expressing my opinion. That is not the same as a debate. I have no obligation to offer the slightest scrap of either evidence or reasoning to "support" my opinion.

October 30, 2006
8:30 pm
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WD, I'm making you mad hm? Whatsup? Calm down.

You're assuming things. I never SAID the first statement was yours.

Here are two statements:

1. "External consciousness cannot exist outside the human brain." (this is a hypothetical statement).

2. "In my opinion, external conciousness cannot exist outside the brain". (you, Worried_Dad, July 26)

You are saying that you never said (1).

I'm saying: Whats the difference between saying (1) and (2) ?

--> How is (1) not an opinion as well?

Can I get an answer from you on this or will this question also go the way of the Kitten question?

October 30, 2006
8:36 pm
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WD

>> I was and am expressing my opinion. That is not the same as a debate. << HUH? Is a debate not an exchange of opinions? You're making yourself look silly.

October 30, 2006
8:55 pm
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All I can add to this is: Let's not confuse the MAP...with the ACTUAL TERRITORY!!!!!

Think (no pun intended) about this!

October 30, 2006
8:59 pm
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Dear God in Heaven.

No, guest a "debate" and "an exchange of opinions" are very, very different things.

Very, very, very different things.

For one thing, when someone offers an opinion, it is a one-way communication; no response is required, or even called for or necessarily appropriate.

Also, I have already heard your opinion and your reasoning on this so far and I would like to go a little further with the cvonversation than you have been willing to permit the conversation to go.

In other words, you and I have accomplished and are through with exhanging our opinions on this question.

You have tied me up for two days now with you insisting on ragging on me about how I said something or what you think I might have meant rather than you actually addressing the things I really did say or trying to draw me out about what I really meant.

In other words, you are not even willing to know what my opinion is. You just want to make up some wierd story about my opinion and then take issue with that.

I will bet that by now, there are some other people here who have been following this discussion, and actually listening to me, who have actually heard me and could paraphrase my opinions on this matter.

Skillfull Means guest: Quotation and paraphrase, in appropriate context. Then disagree, and dispute.

No, I am not interested in debate on this subject--it is not the kind of subject that is easily debated.

October 30, 2006
9:21 pm
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Guest, you wrote:

"WD, I'm making you mad hm? Whatsup? Calm down.

You're assuming things. I never SAID the first statement was yours."

Your question about what is the difference between these two statements, like your nine-headed kitten question, are OFF TOPIC!

It is frustrating to forever be distracted into questions that are off topic.

October 30, 2006
9:37 pm
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Well let's get back on topic.

Of course consiousness exists outside the human brain.

That's why there's ghosts.

Silly Billies!

free

October 30, 2006
9:43 pm
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Well yeah what about the ghosts?

Like I was visiting the pet sematary amd this ghost of a nine headed kitten manifested and said to me:

"Meow, Meow, Meow,Meow, Meow, Meow,Meow, Meow, Meow!"

What was that about?

October 30, 2006
10:01 pm
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Thats nine meows. OMGGg I'm tired. I need a vacation.

October 30, 2006
10:20 pm
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ROFL!

October 30, 2006
10:38 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Oh good, my nine-fold humor was not wasted.

Does anyone remember the "Meow Mix" catfood jingle?

"Cats ask for it by name!"

That song is stuck inside my head forever.

"...I want tune I want liver....please deliver..meow meow meow meow...."

Agghh! Please, make it stop!

BTW, this is a lead in for a purely mechanistic, non-magical means of accomplishing life-after-death.

And that is not a joke.

October 30, 2006
11:21 pm
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Hi truthBtold,

You wrote:

"All I can add to this is: Let's not confuse the MAP...with the ACTUAL TERRITORY!!!!! "

That is an intersting stement.

Could you please clarify or explain or expand further what you meant or were getting at there?

October 31, 2006
6:09 pm
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For those with a genuine interest in learning more about the nature of consciousness, therein gaining an understanding of consciousness beyond the confines of the limited knowledge of science, please visit and read at depth the 'white paper' sited below and written by an esteemed professor.

Others would do well not to waste their precious time.

Onto-Epistemology of Sudden Enlightenment in Chan Buddhism
Chung-ying Cheng
Professor,
University of Hawaii

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEX...../93616.htm

No response is either sought or envisaged by me.

October 31, 2006
6:21 pm
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free

On the 30-Oct-06 you said:

"Well let's get back on topic."

Well said!

And:

"Of course consciousness exists outside the human brain.

That's why there's ghosts."

Exactly - but I'm sure that there is at least one person here who will say "ghosts" don't exist because you can't prove that they do to his 'satisfaction' - hmmmm.

Of course such a person most probably would not realize that he is slandering the integrity and the credibility of many thousands of good people who experience and report such phenomenon without a smidgen of evidence to prove the 'non-existence' of ghosts. Ah well ... such is the ignorance of such a low level of consciousness.

October 31, 2006
6:24 pm
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truthBtold

On the 30-Oct-06 you said:

"All I can add to this is: Let's not confuse the MAP...with the ACTUAL TERRITORY!!!!!"

A VERY GOOD POINT INDEED!!!

October 31, 2006
10:19 pm
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ah Tez, I don't care if anybody calls me nutso. I lived with a ghostie!

and I named him.

ghostie.

The kids and my honey thought I was nuts.

until......

One nice warm day we're getting ready to go to the beach. I have to remind my honey that he was in shorts kuz it was a hot day- he struggles with this one. My doggie was in the living room with everybody- all are laughing and ribbing each other- and all of a sudden my son yells "mamma! get in here (I'm in the kitchen) there's smoke coming out of Misha's nose." then everybody started freaking out. 'Cept me of course. I told them all it was just ghostie- he gets lonely and likes to be in the crowd.

As suddenly as it started, it stopped.

they scared him away.

free

November 1, 2006
5:12 pm
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free

On the 31-Oct-06, you said:

"ah Tez, I don't care if anybody calls me nutso. I lived with a ghostie!"

I believe you. There's a hell of a lot we don't understand. By comparison with what it doesn't know, Sciences knows very little indeed. Yet some so-called science groupies think science is the ultimate font of all knowledge. I'm all for science - wouldn't be without it for quids. But I recognize its severe limitations in its present 'way of knowing'.

My daughter when she was about 20 years old, was going to have a bath. The house had been especially built for a frail elderly gentleman - the previous owner. He had a special rail placed on the wall to assist him when getting into or out of the bath. As my daughter started to undress she saw the ghost of this old gentlemen climbing into the bath. He appeared to be totally oblivious to my daughter's presence. She took off out of the bathroom pronto. When she returned he was gone. My daughter is a down to earth graduate with a business degree. She has never suffered from mental illness and is no new age nut case either. Apparitions, poltergeists, ghosts etc are often sited and reported. It is a fairly common experience. All of the cases cannot be reported by deluded fruit loops!! You know what you know. I see no reason for you to make such a story up and plenty of reasons why you might choose to keep quiet about it.

Ghosts are but one example of consciousness existing independent of a brain.

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