Avatar
Please consider registering
guest
sp_LogInOut Log In
Lost password?
Advanced Search
Forum Scope


Match



Forum Options



Minimum search word length is 3 characters - maximum search word length is 84 characters
The forums are currently locked and only available for read only access
sp_TopicIcon
Can Consciousness Exist Outside the Human Brain?
October 29, 2006
1:28 am
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

I would like to kick this one around a bit.

October 29, 2006
12:36 pm
Avatar
garfield9547
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

What a question.

I would say yes. The spirit will continue to exist after I die. I believe my spirit has a conscious so yes.

Garfield

October 29, 2006
2:15 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

WD,
You said you knew that evidence exists that support the existence of external conciousness.

Where is that evidence?

And lets not forget your OWN statement some time ago where you said you did NOT believe external conciosness can exist.

Just so that people know.

He says the evidence exists. If it does, then why do you disbelief in it?

You do this on purpose WD, you're messed up.

I want to see the evidence.

October 29, 2006
6:26 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

WD, I'm responding to your post here.

>> 1. Humans are not the only animals with brains. << OBVIOUSLY, the issue has always been about HUMAN conciosness existing outside the HUMAN brain. >>2. They have already started replacing bits of the brain (hippocampus)with machinery. << Machine conciousness or intelligence is not human conciosuness, so again: OBVIOUSLY, the issue has always been about HUMAN conciosness existing outside the HUMAN brain. >> 3. Given the number of planets out there, exobiologists take it as almost a no-brainer that there are worlds populated by conscious beings who lack a human brain. << Again: OBVIOUSLY, the issue has always been about HUMAN conciosness existing outside the HUMAN brain. -------------- So what do you think? Can HUMAN conciousness exist outside the HUMAN brain? And is tehre any evidence to support that?

October 29, 2006
6:58 pm
Avatar
Guest
Guests

Worried_Dad.

Nice goin' Wd. You knew that I would be unable to resist such a big, fat, juicy worm on a so skilfully baited hook, didn't you. 🙂

If we can improve the signal-to-noise ratio on this new thread, then your efforts might lead to some interesting insights one way or the other.

An alternative is to allow it to degenerate to 'you know what'.

A good 'white paper' on consciousness can be found at this URL:

http://www.users.globalnet.co......a/conz.htm

The summary quoted from that article for your convenience is:

Beginning of Quote --------------

How the Conscious Brain Works - Putting it all Together

There are some unpalatable truths that must be confronted before the conscious brain can be understood. Firstly the conscious brain has little or no control of processes - it is not about this sort of control. Secondly nothing flows into the centre of the conscious brain; the viewing point and the content of the conscious brain are related by geometry not lumps of stuff buzzing back and forward between them. The epiphenomenal nature of experience demands that we come to terms with a self that is half conscious and half non-conscious. The non-conscious part is a set of processes and the conscious part is a geometric form composed of the output of many of these processes.

To put this another way, our experience is the output of non-conscious processes that has a geometric form that we call a 'view'. The view contains things arranged in time as well as space. What we call 'I' is a mixture of this conscious experience and the non-conscious processes that load things into it. When I think: "I am thinking" the non-conscious brain contains many superposed thoughts but the thought "I am thinking" is the only one that fits the view. 'I' am the phenomenon that made this specific thought, 'I' am a combination of this particular movement of things around the brain and a geometrical form called a 'view'. Both are required for the thought. My knowledge of the thought is due to the way the geometric form is time extended and my awareness of this knowledge is due to the way the non-conscious brain can answer its own questions within the time extended present of the view.

The experience of time is the most difficult feature of this model. We experience things laid out in a short period of time called the extended present. Things extended in time are arranged independently of things laid out in space. When you experience a moving object the object is not smeared over the background, the arrangements that are the motion occur in a direction that is independent of the spatial directions, they do not overlie and obscure the arrangements in space that exist now. In the same way, when you hear a word issuing from someone's lips the phonemes are spread out in time but they are all at the person's lips. Again, the arrangement in time occurs in an independent direction. Things appear time-like because, during the second or two of the extended present, there can be a succession of events at a particular place that do not obscure each other ie: the 'he' of 'hello' does not overlie and obscure the 'llo' even though they are in the same place. Space and time are independent directions for arranging things like the horizontal and vertical within space. Our perpetual motion into the future means that events are always disappearing as fast as they are created.

The physical layout of a brain that contains this mixture of conscious and non-conscious things is shown in the diagram above. The part of the brain that is conscious would, ideally, be quite small so that it can contain the superposed states of the non-conscious brain. It would receive inputs from both the senses and the non-conscious brain so that nearly direct sensory input can be compared with the output of non-conscious processing in a quantum system. The geometric form of conscious experience cannot be represented on paper and is merely symbolised in the illustration above.[see the site] Our challenge is to explain the geometric form and its interaction with the world.

This description of conscious experience is complex. It entails a non-conscious processor of enormous power coupled to a geometric form that is the output of the processor extended in time. The geometric form in turn can, in a general way, guide the non-conscious processor. The sense of seeing yourself seeing does not come from this guidance however, it comes from the time extension of experience.

End of Quote ------------------------

The statement from the above:

"Our challenge is to explain the geometric form and its interaction with the world."

In explaining the nature of "the geometric form", that is, the conscious viewing part of the self, I believe we are well and truly beyond the present realm or domain of science.

We are in the realm of the philosophy of 'mind'.

It is my belief that the existence of consciousness of anything at all, especially a self, is amazing in the extreme. Only our ever present experiencing of consciousness, even when asleep, seems to breed the contempt based upon this familiarity that we seem to have for this wonderful gift. Why else would many of us so freely and wantonly take the lives of other humans as we do every day in wars etc, while, with rare exceptions, the rest of us sit idly bye watching with little more than a murmur?

Consciousness, IMHO, can be divided into two distinct categories; namely, 'attached' consciousness and 'unattached' consciousness.

The article from whence the quote above was cut and pasted, is fully focused on the former. It is the consciousness with which we are most familiar. We call it 'normal' consciousness. However 'unattached' states of consciousness also exist. We all experience them from time to time for ever so brief periods.

Unattached states of consciousness can be brought about by detaching our consciousness from the constant viewing obsession performed by the "geometric form" of the 'I' mentioned in the article.

The method used for detaching our consciousness from continually observing and reacting to our cerebral processes varies widely. The use of drugs is probably the most common way of doing this, meditation another, death another, - the list goes on. I maintain that the one thing in common with all these experiences is the detaching of our consciousness from the brain functions.

That this detached consciousness can and does exist seems to me to be the more interesting focus of this thread.

Why? Because the concept of consciousness existing inside and outside of our head is problematic. It has as an underlying assumption the veracity of the subject-object, inside-outside duality so natural to our sense organ conditioned world view. Discussing the veracity of this conditioning is a far deeper topic, indeed.

There's a good kick start to your new thread.

October 29, 2006
7:09 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

That paper only defines conciousness etc and explains.

The topic of this thread is: Can Human conciousness (whatever it is, however you define it), exist OUTSIDE the Human brain?

>> The use of drugs is probably the most common way of doing this, meditation another, death another << If you're implying that this is external C, it is not. There is no proof that the brain doesnt have anything to do with these events. For example people who beleive in NDE's, are unable to prove that the Brain really had no activity whatsoever during the experience. They say since the brain was drained of blood, therefore there must be no brain activity during NDE's. Ofcourse its absurd to assume that ALL (100% of) the blood was drained from the brain. This is not even possible. Your way of convoluting things and concepts prevents you from seeing the simple truth.

October 29, 2006
7:25 pm
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Guest, you wrote:

"OBVIOUSLY, the issue has always been about HUMAN conciosness existing outside the HUMAN brain."

Oh, you meant human consciousness. Why didn't you say so?

Guest, at one level "Human Consciousness" might be defined as "that consciousness that only exists in the human brain." If we wanted to go there then that could be the end of it.

I have no idea if part or all of my "consciousness" existed in any form before I was conceived or will exist in any form after I die.

I do think it might be possible, and that it might a completely natural phenomenon consistent with our major scientific understandings of the universe.

October 29, 2006
7:26 pm
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

But, if my consciousness did persist in some form after I died, then it would not really be "human" consciousness any more.

October 29, 2006
7:41 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

WD

As usual, your stock "please all" vague "may exist" answer. Or whoerver you're trying to please, in this case, Tez.

>> I have no idea << Previously, you have said that you dont believe conciousness can exist outside the brain. Right or no ? Now you're saying it MAY exist. Whats your real answer? >> Oh, you meant human consciousness. Why didn't you say so? << What other conciousness are we talking about? Ofcourse, its human conciosness. You really thought I didnt know that artificial intelligence exists or extra terrestrials may exist? Ofcourse I know about these and the first exists and the 2nd may, we dont know. If a planet Earth can exist here, there's a possibility that another one like ours may exist. The Universe is limitless as we know. >> I do think it might be possible, and that it might a completely natural phenomenon consistent with our major scientific understandings of the universe. << Again your vague mushy please-all "may exist" answer. Do you agree that previously you have agreed with me by saying that you do NOT beleive it can exist? If you deny what you said, I will dig it out. Dont give me the "I may have said" stuff, alright. I will bring your quote here then and put it infront of you.

October 29, 2006
7:42 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

And also tell me whether you disagree with the 9 headed kittne existing inside my computer monitor.

Does it exist or not? Maybe?

Give an answer.

October 29, 2006
7:48 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

Here it is, WD.

On 26-Jul-06, in the Gnosis thread, you said:

>> Yes, I believe that it is impossible for consciousness to exist outside of a brain. << And NOW you are saying it MAY exist: >> I do think it might be possible, and that it might a completely natural phenomenon consistent with our major scientific understandings of the universe. << You've been caught red handed trying to please whoever you're trying to please. Either that or you're confused. Which one is it? Now do some self-reflection and explain the contradicting statements you made and why you made them and share your findings here.

October 29, 2006
8:03 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

WD, you have a LOT of explaining to do.

You made this title "Can it exist?" now and on 26nd July, you said "Its IMPOSSIBLE for it to exist".

Explain, explain, explain.

What happened to you between Jul 26 and now? I hope the SETI aliens did do anything to you.

Explain in detail your change of opinion and why you said on July 26 that its impossible to exist. See I caught you. I told ya I'm a toughie in debating.

October 29, 2006
8:25 pm
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi Guest.

Could you bump the thread where I said said that?

Well, I suspect that I just did explain the apparent to you. It is possible to define human consciousness as:

"that consciousness that can only exist inside a human brain."

Therefore by definition it cannot exist outside of a human brain.

But, for all I know, my brain is just a simulation of a brain being run on a supercomputer in someone's basement.

In that case, am I still possesed of Human Consciousness?

October 29, 2006
8:30 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

WD

Its bumped. Now explain why you said you think its impossible to it to exist.

>> "that consciousness that can only exist inside a human brain." Therefore by definition it cannot exist outside of a human brain. << Ok, dont play that game with me. We're talking about if a Marble can be made of glass or not. Thats the debate. You cant respond with "Lets define a marble as a marble which is made of glass. In that case, a marble can only be made of glass". The debate here is: WHAT is the marble made of? Glass or NOT? Its a simple question. CAN human Conciousness exist outside the brain? You have said NO before and now you are saying "Maybe it can".

October 29, 2006
8:31 pm
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Hi guest,

Thanks for bumping that thread. Here is the offending quote:

"Yes, I believe that it is impossible for consciousness to exist outside of a brain. But I also believe that it is possible to make a brain out of things other than human flesh."

I did not say that a human brain was required.

You can run Windows XP on a Macintosh computer. I believe it is possible to run the software of consciousness on platforms other than our brains.

The "program" that describes each of us might already be running on several different platforms.

October 29, 2006
8:42 pm
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Also, I have not proposed a "debate" on the issue. I just think it is an interesting question.

October 29, 2006
9:53 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

>> I did not say that a human brain was required. << YOu already tackled that issue in that same old post mentioning artificial intelligence like you have done now. Well interesting question eh? The bottomline is, there's no evidence. How can it even exist? Where? In the air? Exist on what? What does it survive on? Nuerons survive on blood and osygen etc. What does external human conciousness survive on? What are its boundaries? How does it exist physically? There are no answers to these questions. It breaks down as does my Kitten question (what does it survive on? There's nothing inside the monitor for it to eat - etc.). It cant exist, simple. Do you think my Kitten question is interesting too? But I see your point. The fact is, it doesnt exist. More so, it cant.

October 30, 2006
5:10 am
Avatar
Worried_Dad
Member
Members
Forum Posts: 43
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

What I am saying guest since you have made, with a tone of absolute certainty, that it is "impossible" for "external human consciousness" to exist outside of a human brain that it is YOUR responsibility to present evidence supporting your powerful statement.

October 30, 2006
7:34 am
Avatar
lightchaser
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

guest guest- why does it seem tha you are attacking on this thread?

I look here interested in WD's question and all I read is hostility. Maybe this is some playful banter that I just don't get. But unfortunately, it just takes away from the discussion and makes it about you and WD.

Anyways, it would have been an intesting topic WD.

October 30, 2006
7:50 am
Avatar
lightchaser
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

never mind guest. I apologize. Maybe I am just to sensitive to read on the libs side.

October 30, 2006
10:47 am
Avatar
eve
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

If consciousness existed outside the human brain - would we ever know for sure? I think I'll plead agnostic on that one.

October 30, 2006
1:32 pm
Avatar
garfield9547
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Worried Dad

"But, if my consciousness did persist in some form after I died, then it would not really be "human" consciousness any more"

Depends on what you see as 'human'.

The body goes back to dust. But what about the spirit? or soul

If anybody believes in judgement day after death, what part does our consiouness play spiritually?

What do you think

Garfield

October 30, 2006
1:58 pm
Avatar
garfield9547
New Member
Members
Forum Posts: -1
Member Since:
September 24, 2010
sp_UserOfflineSmall Offline

Just wanted to add. Here we see that soul and mind is 2 different enteties.

I have to bring the 'bible' in here as this is the only way I can explain this.

Mark 12:30
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
KJV

1) All they heart
2) All they soul
3) All they mind
4) All they strenght

So heart, soul, mind, strenght is 4 different things. Do you agree?

Surely there must be consciouness outside the brain. After we die

Garfield

October 30, 2006
2:34 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

WD

No. What happened first?

Someone claiming that External Conciousness exists?

OR

Someone claiming that it does not exist?

>> What I am saying guest since you have made, with a tone of absolute certainty, that it is "impossible" for "external human consciousness" to exist outside of a human brain that it is YOUR responsibility to present evidence supporting your powerful statement. << Its the responsibility of those who claim that it exists, to prove that it does.

October 30, 2006
2:36 pm
Avatar
guest_guest
Guest
Guests

hi LL, its alright, me and WD have that kind of debate between us.

Forum Timezone: UTC -8
Most Users Ever Online: 349
Currently Online:
27
Guest(s)
Currently Browsing this Page:
1 Guest(s)
Top Posters:
onedaythiswillpass: 1134
zarathustra: 562
StronginHim77: 453
free: 433
2013ways: 431
curious64: 408
Member Stats:
Guest Posters: 49
Members: 111143
Moderators: 5
Admins: 3
Forum Stats:
Groups: 8
Forums: 74
Topics: 38716
Posts: 714574
Newest Members:
ronaldcarter, Andrewank, petterson20, KarlWalter, ChristopherStanley, OsbornWebb
Moderators: arochaIB: 1, devadmin: 9, Tincho: 0, Donn Gruta: 0, Germain Palacios: 0
Administrators: admin: 21, ShiningLight: 572, emily430: 29

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC. All rights reserved.
Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Cookie Policy | Health Disclaimer | Do Not Sell My Personal Information