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Can any of you convince me there is a God??
April 18, 2008
6:33 am
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thewall
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red blonde,

glad I could be of some help to you. 🙂

sweetpea,

How are you doing? Have you been able to find a pastor or counselor to talk to about these issues? Pastors are FREE so I would start there if money is an issue.
Let me know how things are going.

April 18, 2008
7:47 pm
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Sweet Peas

On the 11-Apr-08 you wrote:

"Religion makes no difference. I just can't seem to get it. How do people go through the crap that most of us on this site have, and still believe in a loving and merciful God? People here lean on Him, and trust him, and claim He brought them through.

Me?? I am angry, and struggle to believe that if He is what I was taught, why did I have to suffer? Why did any of us? I also say, that why are we depending on someone to pull us through that could have stopped it from the start?

Why didn't He protect me? If he is real, why didn't he protect you?

I just don't get it"

Good for you!!! An ideal, unconditionally loving, all powerful, all knowing father certainly would have protected even the most errant of his children. Hitler would never have had a dysfunctional psyche and WW2 would never have happened. You would have had perfect parents together with percect parenting as would the rest of creation. The lion would lay down with the lamb and eat the grass. Neither predators nor victims of any kind would exist. The list of differences that would exist in the world, were an omnipotent, omniscient, unconditionally loving God of the Christian ilk to exist, is endless.

The logical conclusion of the Christian premise of the existence of an omnipotent, omniscient, unconditionally loving God is that such a God must either cause or permit all 'things' without exception.

Therefore this Christian God either causes or permits all the horrors in the universe to exist without exception.

If this Christian God is all good and thus unconditionally loving, then all these horrors must be in the very best interests of its victims without exception.

If there is at least one exception then the head domino falls and the whole Christian domino set falls down also.

How can being cruelly raped, sodomized and then murdered be in the victims best interests??? How was the holocaust in the Jews' best interests??? The list of predator/victim duos in this world is seemingly endless - at least up until the end of this planet with its ultimate heat death.

The Christian God is a fantasy just like Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy. The only difference is the Christians have failed to put away the fantasies of childhood.

There certainly is a Ground of All Being, of this there can be no doubt. Science is hot on the trail of this in the guise of Quantum Physics. But I am deadly certain that science won't find the personal Christian God at the end of the trail or anything like Him!! Professor Paul Davies, the renowned physicist, some years ago said: "... maybe something of a more mystical nature is more appropriate when we reach these ultimate questions."

Sweet Peaa, you are on the cusp of breaking free from your past Christian indoctrination.

You are asking very, very important questions of yourself and fellow Christians. Unlike most confirmed Christians, you are starting to seriously question your Christian beliefs in the light of your own observations of how you see the world. You are starting to shed the second hand, hand-me-down beliefs invented by primitive peoples of antiquity.

You will not get satisfactory answers from Christians regurgitating the mainstream Christian beliefs because they have none. The reason why is because their beliefs are the product of primitive minds who were unable to escape the superstitions of the past.

You were given so called 'answers' long before you asked the questions important to you. These 'answers' inhibited you from seeking your own answers to your own questions as they arose. Why? Because you had already taken on board 'givens' as though they were facts. I remember chanting catechism at 4.5 years of age when I started school run by nuns. "Who made you?" was thrust at me. Then followed the answer: "God made me, giving me a body and a soul." This and lots of other crap were force fed to my young mind at a time when these questions never occurred to me. I then was forced to chant them over and over in unison with the other young children in my class. I was then forced to sit for tests which went on my report card under the heading of Religion. I am now looking at my School Report dated 16th December 1949 from St. Joseph's Convent School. The Subject 'Religion' has the score 99 next to it. The maximum score was 100. Sister M. Timothy signed this yellowing document. How well did Sister Mary Timothy indoctrinate my then 7 year old mind? The answer is with a 99% success rate. In my later school years the Christian Brothers nicknamed me the 'Theologin'. That's how good a job they did on brainwashing my mind into taking their sick religious beliefs on board as being 'facts'.

It has taken me many years of questioning to come to the deep realisation that Christian beliefs are like a long row of dominos. If you allow one to fall over very soon more begin to topple until one day there is a cascade effect wherein each falsehood exposed starts the exposure of the next. Then one day you realise what a pack-a-poo ticket you've been sold as a child and ever since. You start to read about all the paedophile priests and ministers. The Catholic church has just made a huge financial settlement to the victims of priestly paedophilia. You see the Waco, Jonestown massacres, the Baker controversy, on and on and realise that the so-called Christian leaders are unable to transform even themselves let alone anyone else.

The problem is that when people like me vocalize these findings, we are howled down by the many gungho Christians who become very threatened by having both their beliefs and their abilities to reason about their beliefs challenged. When someone starts punching holes in the bottom of their life boat watch out!

I encourage you to keep questioning your beliefs as you would when doing a jigsaw puzzle. Don't let anyone, myself included, try to hammer an ill-fitting piece of your puzzle in place for you!!!!

April 20, 2008
10:34 am
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MsGuided
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Man made GOD in his image. That pretty much sums it up for me.

For all the factors Tez wrote above only man could creat such a twisted doctrin that is dualistic, divisive and distructive.

Also i don't like being viewed as a domestic breeding machine who's ability to create life is also controlled by this GOD!

Only MAN with his focus on power, violence, and control can subjugate women and children, and themselves to such crazyness.

Only man can reason it to the end, because HE is entitled. Only a twisted group of misogyinists can take a woman's power to the point of controlling her every living moment with his will. Just like GOD is entitled to be a sadistic Father/Leader who would allow such cruelties to exist and THRIVE>..oh but he is a loving father?

The rape, sodomy and Homosexual bashing is all in the bible. Yes plant the seeds of hate towards your fellow beings.

Does the die seem cast by religeon to set us all up for abuse? We can choose the way of the good, or have plenty of doctrin to back up our evil acts and yet we can say "we are imperfect, and need god/jesus to save us"

This sets the tone for lack of responsibility when it comes to evil acts.

We aren't imperfect. We are set up to beleive that so we can be controled. We all have a choice in what we do. We choose the path of divisiveness.

No this is not "gods" doing at all.
I'm not convinced of the god in Islam, Catholicism, Cristianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism..because parts of their doctrins attack the very core of my being as a woman. I am not just a vessel to carry out the desires of men.

I think i should be able to roam when i want, where i want, without having to deal with this violence, and prison men enforce. I don't give a damn what other people think when i exert my independence, unless they support me with respect.

Women like me get subtle harrassment every day which tells me I must always be on my guard to defend myself from physical, financial and emotional ruin.

I make my own choices within the realms of nature that exist ON this planet.

I can look to the stars and feel comfort that spirituality is just that! Expansive, open and pure...not a Being/puppeteer(s) that creates such havoc for us all, then tells us only in death will we find peace IF we follow HIS rules.

Religeon is just a mind Fuck..and moral rule book. Nothing more..

So on that note Tez said

"The problem is that when people like me vocalize these findings, we are howled down by the many gungho Christians who become very threatened by having both their beliefs and their abilities to reason about their beliefs challenged. When someone starts punching holes in the bottom of their life boat watch out!"

I've written before as he has above, about religeon springing from primitive times....it so tiring doing that all again.

What does religeon that sprung from a desert have to do with me? It's incessant subjugation is what. It's fairy tails and Myths..I prefer reality.

I'm not going to explain, using research, reason and proof anymore.

This is my choice and I don't care , or try to convince others.

I don't believe in "GOD" or know what god is...and I don't really care not knowing.

April 20, 2008
11:02 am
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red blonde
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Why do I believe that there is a God or a higher power or positive beneficial energies in this universe?

Because of one simple fact that happened to me back in 1979. If I had not listened to this 'voice' that came to me, telling me to go to the ER, I would be not on this site posting. And the surgeons, who I told this to when they asked me why I came to the ER...told me I was one damn lucky lady to have listened to that 'voice'..because if I hadn't, and delayed coming in one more day...they could have still performed surgery...but in their honest opinion...I still would have died. They were so worried that I wouldn't make it, that they hesitated telling me the truth about my condition until I was coming out of intensive/critical care...three and a half days later.

April 20, 2008
4:15 pm
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red blonde,
did I miss this story on some thread? I'd like to hear the whole thing.

April 20, 2008
5:41 pm
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...Christian beliefs are like a long row of dominos. If you allow one to fall over very soon more begin to topple until one day there is a cascade effect... Yes, I agree with Tez. Yet I find Christianity the best pack-a-poo ticket avalable to me right now. And I buy just as I would any other religious faith if I studied it enough: with a grain of salt. Partly bc my God cannot really be described in words and symbologies.

There was a T-shirt that read on the front "everyone needs to believe in something" and on the back "I believe in another beer". Sometimes religions are like beer. We drink it to forget our pain. We drink it to justify that we can torture our "unjust" fellow humans and drag them by a jeep on the desert. We drink to simply find a foundation of what "just" is. Bottom line is "just" is what fills the human ticket for our (Maslow´s or whichever) pyramid of needs. Everything follows to justify that.

Sweet Peas, when you find that no matter what you were created in the image of your God, HP, inner strength, the force, you will find spirituality. You will find that you transcend what is perceived by the five senses, you will find the esteem you lost, the prestige you deserve, the justice and the answers you are looking for for you and for yours. When you surround to giving up your beliefs pro or con religion or God, knowing in your heart that there is a bigger picture and a higher force than what we perceive, you will be by free will opening your hand and receiving what you´re longing for in the measure of your belief.

Can I prove that to you? Not by any of today´s standards. I have a potato nose so therefore Im not perfect. I still ask that man´s question "why did god made the avocado seed so big?" I do not believe tough that people walk to "thier hell" by free will but by hope. I so much believe we are all hopeful just haven´t a way of justifying by what our minds perceive today. Today hopeful people are plain gullible people.

Personally all I can say is I wouldnt be here if it werent by faith and hope which are sort of intertwined to me. Maybe if we developped at the rate of a fungus, we could have more answers than we d now. Why don´t we? Perhaps bc we don´t own up to our part in the process. Or, sh*t, we don´t want a part of that process. In which case, we are free to create another process...

Here´s a thought provoking reading I recommend (about 5 pages) that isn´t a long shot from what is being talked about in this thread: "Do We Need Mankind? A Fungal Perspective" by the accountant Diane Brooks Pleninger, who wrote an award winning interview with Pilobolus Crystallinus, a mushroom that in her fictional universe is both fungus and author of the award-winning bestseller: Do We Need Mankind? A Fungal Perspective. Pleninger "thought she might stand a chance of placing" in the contest. "But when she saw the essay topic — “Do we need nature?” — Pleninger wasn’t impressed. “I thought, ‘Oh, that’s terrible. How could you avoid being corny and broad and overgeneral? And I got cranky.” It was in this crankiness that Pleninger got her prizewinning brainstorm: “The question is not do we need nature, but does nature need us?” From that point, she says, “I just scribbled and scribbled. I built up a whole bunch of ideas and started to go.”

So, Sweet Peas, if you´re disillunioned with God (though I believe youre disillusioned with the people and what they write about God), you might find distraction and enlightenment in this reading. And maybe it will help you metamorphose our anger into insight which in turn will help you find your way with or without God. Plant your own "trees of life and knowledge"!

There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. Shakespeare

love and hugs,

April 20, 2008
5:48 pm
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PS: I bet a beer you have in you what it takes to make yourself and your world better!

April 20, 2008
7:07 pm
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I don't know if I have much to offer here, but I can relay my own personal slant.

Perhaps some of it might be summed up (somwhat)in a poem I once wrote:

Blame It On The Neo-Cortex:

Blame it ALL in the neo-cortex - -

Question existence perplex.

Unguided and lost

All human suffering vortex.

Answers lie in the unleashing - - -

Stifled reptilian reflex.

For vestiges and remnants,

Of social mores foregone....

...and throw straight out the window -

- - - all rationale bygone.

And - by God,

don't you know - - - -

that my sanity restored......

Now that

"looking for answers...."

I've since

PURPOSELY....

.....withdrawn!

Maybe it is just unknowable.

Personally, for me, I have always sought the examples in nature for my answers/explanations - if you can call them that.

For instance, a flower bulb planted upside down will actually turn itself around in order to seek the sun and grow.

Conversely, there are other examples in nature where the parents eat their children.

Still other examples where a nursing mother of one species nurses babies of another species.

Just a whole gamut.

No rhyme or reason, really.

But I like to think that the percentages of instances where the parents eat their young - for whatever reasons - far out weighs the MANY OTHER instances of which to where life is nurtured and supported and allowed to actually flourish and survive and prosper.

For what its worth....that's what helps me to sleep good at night......

tBt

April 20, 2008
7:13 pm
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truthBtold
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correction...."Does Not far out weigh the MANY OTHER instances..."

April 20, 2008
7:41 pm
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red blonde
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Tiger -

I talked about it on the 'When do coincidences.....' thread. It is a rather long thread.

red

April 21, 2008
5:34 am
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passionflower
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We all know or should know that religion in whatever shape or form is 'man-made'... a tool for controlling the masses. When you consider the rubbish that we are brainwashed to believe at an early age... that Eve was made out of Adam's rib and all that kind of crap...does anyone in this modern society with all of our scientific and technological advancement actually believe that crap? Religion has taught us to be ashamed of our bodies and that the sexual act is a dirty taboo thing and if we participate in sex outside marriage then we have sinned! Just that load of rubbish alone is enough for most intelligent people to wonder why someone higher than us... someone living up there in the lofty heights wants us to be ashamed of what he created and if he created us in 'his image'... is he ashamed of his nakedness and private parts?? And if so... then surely this is a design flaw and not anything to do with 'dirty'. He needs to get back to the drawing board....And I agree with the poster above who mentioned the hypocrites who pose as priests and sodomise little boys... Explain that one away all you brainwashed religious fanatics!

I am still doing my homework on what I believe and do not believe.... but what I do know at this moment is that I don't believe in the crap written in the bible and I don't believe in any man-made religion. I don't consider Buddhism to be a religion... it is a philosophy and I probably didn't have a good start when trying to learn about Buddhism because I got in to a group of 'Nichiren Dishonin' Buddhists who seemed like a very materialistic bunch in my opinion and who chanted to a scroll in a wooden box for what they wanted, whether it was a new car or a beautiful girlfriend...all under the guise of 'we chant for happiness and world peace'...whose leader travels around in a private jet with his own personal chef. I'm afraid I burst out laughing... tears rolling down my cheeks. These poor people reminded me of lemmings. Talk about brainwashing! I appreciate Buddhism has many forms.... perhaps I'll try and learn about Zen next time.....

I agree that scientists will come up with the answers we are all searching for and that will prove there isn't a God up there in heaven watching over us making our 'mistakes' or that we 'chose' our lives or that we re-birth or that pigs can fly.....

The reason religious people get angry and defensive is the same reason an alcoholic won't put down that drink. It's called addiction... and it's a crutch! Their world as they know it will crumble. Just like my world as I know it will crumble if the Almighty paid me a visit right now and tapped me on the shoulder, reprimanding me for typing away at my computer keyboard at this moment and criticising Him.... It attracts people who have been through a lot of shit in their lives, old people who are coming to the end of their lives and mis-guided people whose parents did a great job of brainwashing their children and who were in turn brainwashed by their parents or some other figure in authority. I've been to Pentecostal churches in war torn Roman Catholic/Protestant Ireland where people get euphoric and leave with a glazed look in their eyes.....If I dance around my room with my arms up in the air singing at the top of my lungs to whatever rocks my boat, I feel euphoric too. Maybe that's what it is... maybe that's the 'higher state of consciousness' the taste of Nivirna or sheer bliss... I went and still do go from time to time, to an ashram in the Rockies... not because I am a Hindu but I just like the peace and quiet up there... away from the madding crowd leading a healthy life for a few weeks. Whilst there, we chant 'Hari Om' for about 15 minutes and afterwards that same sense of euphoria is felt. But to me, that's just a really nice way of feeling relaxed, chanting a mindless phrase instead of making a list of things 'to do' in my mind... and nothing at all to do with religion or connecting to God or a Higher Power.

Just one more thing on the subject though.... I don't think blind faith is a bad thing. Look at how many alcoholics AA has helped to achieve sobriety using the Higher Power philosophy and any other 12 step programme for that matter.... '.... came to believe that a power GREATER than myself can restore me to sanity'. I'm not an alcoholic personally.... and am free of addictions including religion but it's just an observation that sprang to mind and relates to this topic.

If blind faith helps people to lead happier and healthier lives, then I'd say go for it. Just like placebo pills can cure illnesses too!

April 21, 2008
8:18 am
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I want you all to know that I am reading these responses. I just don't have a lot of energy to put into it right now. I am dealing with what is going on with my daughter, who is cutting, and many other things that are going on in my every day life.

I am still unsure of what I think, but, I would like you to all know that I am still reading and appreciate your responses very much.

Thank you all, from both sides of the fence.

Struggling but surviving,

Sweet Peas

April 21, 2008
10:03 am
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Sweet Peas,

No one can convince you there is a god if you don't want to believe. NO one can convince you there's not a god- if you do believe. I believe the Higher Power is within us and we have to learn to trust ourselves and draw on that power. But. It never hurts to ask for help(collective power)

My thoughts are with you during this difficult time. I know all too well the feeling of helplessness before this self-harm. I send you and your daughter my atheist prayers, positive good earth energy and hugs.

April 21, 2008
9:18 pm
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Tiger Trainer
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((sweetpeas))

April 22, 2008
12:36 am
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bevdee and Tiger Trainer,

Thank you for your support in this time. Right now, it seems I am in a downward spiral that I cannot seem to get out of, though I do know that there is hope. I am just REALLY struggling to see it right now.

I appreciate your kindness. Your words of comfort and hugs are greatly appreciated. Thank you.

April 27, 2008
6:27 am
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Psalm 46:19

"Be Still and Know that I AM GOD"

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