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Anyone check out the Bush/Kerry debate tonight?
October 21, 2004
11:59 pm
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Anonymous
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I don't have to..What you get from the water cooler talk that you are spouting here, just shows ONCE again, how you are SO not listening here. I'll ask you one more time: SHOW ME THE PROOF! from YOU...Not Cici...

I challenge you.... And don't post a link.... I want it in writing...

Do you hear me? Or are you even listening? I ASKED YOU.. Very simple!!!

October 22, 2004
12:33 am
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And to you Cici,

Look and see what I posted myself. About my military background, if you have not...Kerry was a spoiled SOB too, I never said Bush was not...They both went to the same Ivy League school!!! What I really want to know now, is this: How long have you two been of voting age????????

October 22, 2004
5:28 am
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silence
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OK. When people seriously talk abot politics, I get irritated. I only want to hear political debate in a joking manner. On that note, I've got a fun link for y'all.

http://i.euniverse.com/funpage.....apsody.swf

October 22, 2004
9:36 am
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Cici
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Hee hee. I was just putting up information 🙂 But I feel the gauntlet has been thrown! I can't resist!!! 😉

What does my voting age have to do with anything? I voted in the last election, leave it at that. Although I certainly respect your service records, Sunny, I fail to see what that has to do with the presidential election. Please explain. I don't feel I wasted my time - others who read the thread may be interested and actually go see the dcouments. The websites I listed actually just have links to .pdf's of scanned documents regarding their service records.

I suppose my issue is the Vietnam War. I feel that Iraq is turning into another Vietnam. It will be a collosal failure, even if we do "win" - Iraq's ability to support itself economically is utterly destroyed. (Check out: http://www.globalsecurity.org/.....ietnam.htm. if you're interested in the history of that conflict). The description of the US decline in public support for intervention in Vietnam from 1960-1965 is startlingly similar to what I see regarding Iraq right now.

Anyhoo, Kerry was awarded 3 purple hearts, a bronze star, and a silver star. He may be spoiled, I don't know. I do know he specifically requested to be sent overseas. Bush received 0 service awards for combat duty, and specifically requested to stay on US soil.

My Dad actually got 3 purple hearts, and a bunch of other medals that are crumpled up in a box and covered with mold spots (Dad is a bit bitter). He served in the Japanese occupation in WWII, the Korean War (this is where he got his purple hearts, as he was the only man in his unit to survive the march out of korea), and the Vietnam War.

Men who have seen combat and survived are made of stronger stuff than most of us, IMHO. I think Republican John McCain is a great man as well, 5 1/2 years in a POW camp. This is a moving true story of a man named Michael Christian, I believe, who sewed an American flag out of scraps.(http://www.truthorfiction.com/.....n-flag.htm).

October 22, 2004
11:17 am
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eve
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Is the personal history of your candidates really so much more important than their political programm? I mean over here in Europe, pople at least like to believe that they elect their gouvernment because of what they will do when they are elected, like taxes, employment policy, public healthcare, education.... Of course there a lot of promises, and not every result is as shiny as it was proposed, but at least the idea is that politicians have to have plans and programs and show numbers, have people who are competent, have .

I don't think that what somebody did as a teenager is the best discriminator of how sucessfull they will handle the problems of the nation next year.

October 22, 2004
12:00 pm
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Cici
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IMO the president is a figurehead for the most part. The "commander in chief" of all armed forces....

The lawmakers reside in congress and the supreme court.

But inexperience with military affairs is a big issue because of the war right now. the US has had so many screw ups.

October 22, 2004
1:17 pm
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eve
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Yeah, I hear you. But then again - why judge Bush by his military service more than a decade ago, and not by what happened during the last years?

October 23, 2004
12:12 am
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Sunny-

You're so confident your guy's a shoe in so why so bent out of shape?

The fact that you need me to write it out for you, and need to hear it from me not Cici clearly indicates that this has become a personal- rather than a political matter for you. Actually, I would have said more- but admittedly, Cici was pretty damn eloquent so why just repeat what was expressed well enough?

So what you want basically is for me to PROVE things to you that your mind is closed to anyway. You won't go to cici's sites. Afraid what you will find? You might be confident you can argue with me, but you can't argue with the FACTS. If you don't like the sources, seek answers to refute them. But don't ask me to waste my time reiterating something that you can find a click away. That website is one in countless places where you can find "proof" of the same things. It certainly wasn't the first place I saw it, and if it was for you- maybe that explains your political position.

Ah, but you're right- he may win. You have plenty of company. People get used to things, familiarity breeds liking, people stay in unhealthy relationships, fall in love with their captors. These things apply to populations as well. So let's say bush wins. Does that mean he's the best man? Has the majority always ruled in the most humane, noble and sensible fashion? In the most democratic fashion? NOT in the history of this country. And certainly NOT in the history of the world.

Look, as a librarian I get paid to spend my day teaching adults and children how to evaluate and locate information resources. Those are individuals who want to learn and are willing to read the information. I spent years in school learning to do that myself. Even if you care to cut me a paycheck to educate you, I wouldn't do so because you have made it clear with your hostility that it would be a waste of time.

October 23, 2004
12:28 am
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Cici-

Did you get a chance to read the Kevin Phillips book, American Dynasty? I've been dying to read it- I have a lecture of his on video. He's a truly intriguing person.

October 23, 2004
1:17 am
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eve-

even if we were to forget his "youthful indiscretions," if we were to judge the man from the past four years... well, I dunno... I don't think that would sway too many people over to his side from the left. the fact that the race is as close as it is can be explained maybe by the ignorance of the populace, their fear in a time of war to change leaders midstream, etc. etc. etc.?
or even a sicker side of mankind- that of classism, greed and racism- all of which are inflamed in times when a nation faces an economic downturn and of course, war.

kerry might have been a rich ivy league kid- and a much richer man, married to a much richer woman. but you know what? they don't even support the party that represents the financial and other interest of their "class." everyone that runs for the white house is politically ambitious or they wouldn't get there to begin with. some are just driven more by self interest and greed than others. i have to respect that, rich man or not (and believe me- I'm no big fan of politicians as a group). i'd go so far to say even that i don't think ANY of them do enough for the lower class in this country.

eve, wouldn't you like to know that someone you put in a position of power had a history that you respected? i mean, i don't care who they are sleeping with, gay or straight, married or single, whatever. i'm talking about the parts of their lives that indicate that they would be competent to be a good leader. skipping out on military duty, ESPECIALLY when your father is in a position of power (you'd think he would have had enough respect for his dad?) is NOT something i can defend my leader for doing- much less respect.

i don't think this is a republican or democratic issue- i think both parties could stand and infusion of integrity. and i think bush needs a higher dose than most.

just my opinions.

eve- sounds like elections in your country are not run by the press much the way ours seem to be sometimes! many people here listen to npr- foriegn radio stations to get a more objective slant. unfortunately americans are suckers for the sound-bite and glitzy media coverage which can be sold and bought.

sorry to go on, i'm losing focus! hope i wasn't offensive or anything- just my point of view.

October 23, 2004
1:24 am
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correction: "some are just driven more* by self interest and greed than others."

should read *Less*

hehe

i cut part out.

October 23, 2004
10:00 am
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Worried_Dad
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The Onion Magazine ran a spoof of Bush's original acceptance speech entitled

"Bush: Our long national nightmare of peace and prosperity is finally over." They outlined a bold [lan to wreck the economy and get us into unnecessary wars. The ariticle was a spoof, but it was chillingly accurate as a prediction of things to come.

October 23, 2004
7:30 pm
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WD-

The Onion is such a riot! I love it.

-ella

October 23, 2004
7:55 pm
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mzella,

I have nothing against you, nor have I ever. Over on support there has never been any confrontation between us. But if you feel that way, that's fine. I was wondering when you were going to "play that card" So if this is now personal, that's your problem, not mine. Capice????????

Sunny

October 23, 2004
9:07 pm
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No, Sunny. I don't get it i guess. It's not a "card" i'm playing. Always appreciated your posts. Didn't understand the hostility to something that was more or less a conversation on current events. That's all. I didn't mean that you were taking it personal because you had any issues with me, I meant that you are making the political issue a personal one. Lots of people do though, especially with this election so soon.

No problem here.

October 23, 2004
10:06 pm
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Anonymous
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No problem here ella...I do respect everyones opinion here, and I know you do as well. I only took a few things personally actually, one was the kool aid thing because quite frankly, I "saw" that (and this is just my personal feeling) as a kind of slap in the face to a horrible tragedy that happened years ago. Not a slap in my face. I know I'm 46 years old and not so much "in the groove" with younger ppl and I learn from my youngest! She is 22...I suppose it is hard to learn new slang, if you will.... When she told me what it meant I was like..Huh? LOL...Anyway, I'm neither party Dem or Repub... And I agree with Cici that this is prob another Vietnam....I do so hate that too. I wish we were not at war. But, sadly we are. Whoever wins of course will win. And I will respect that. And all in all, I really cannot stand most politicians. I could have brought up a few more things about both candidates, but I had some bad news tonight so I'm just hoping for a fair election and a better future for us all!

Sunny

October 23, 2004
10:24 pm
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Hi Sunny-

Yeah, politicians sometimes don't speak for any of us!

Sorry about the offensiveness of the Kool Aid quote. You really just made me think right now- god it's almost as bas as if a decade or so from now someone made up a 9/11 equivalent. Living on the Lower East Side of NYC during that time- I'm sure I'd react the same way. It makes it's point- but in bad taste. I do see it now...
Actually, I'm just a little closer to your age than your daughter's...I'm 35. Maybe that explains the above, but doesn't excuse it.

I meant what I said above that I always appreciated your posts. One difference in opinion did not change my respect for you.

Sorry to hear that you had some unfortunate news. For what it's worth, I hope I can be there for you on the support side. It makes me almost sorry to reveal my politics- not because I don't stand firm behind them, I do. But I also treasure the people on this board and care what goes on with them. Hopefully, my posts on liberation brew don't tarnish that!

peace and warmth-
ella

October 23, 2004
11:37 pm
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Anonymous
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(((ella)))
Not at all! You are a very supportive valid person here on support as well as here.. I really am glad this is cleared up.. You need not feel sorry about anything. Nor does a difference of opinion change my respect for you.
Of course! We are all human, and I welcome your advice, feedback and support on the other side and I know I can count on your's as well...
I thank you for the thoughts about my bad news..I had a death in the family and am having a tough time right now.

Peace to you as well

And Hugs!!

Sunny

October 24, 2004
12:40 am
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(((Sunny)))

Sorry for your loss. Everyone will be here for you, I'm sure you know that.

-ella

October 24, 2004
10:35 am
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Anonymous
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Thank you ella! I appreciate that so much..It's pretty tough right now...

Hugs,

Sunny

October 31, 2004
8:06 am
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upfront
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I am staying with my daughter in her college dorm for a few days and she has taken me around to meet her various friends and check out their rooms.

When you hear about today's young people its often negative. I've enjoyed so much meeting all these 18 to 21 year old kids that are very involved in things happening in the world. They are much more politically aware than I ever was.(Youth!)

Every one of them has some political flyer or sticker or sign regarding their views on the worthiness of the US presidential candidates plastered all over their rooms!

I have to say that the funniest one I saw was in the room of two boys who couldn't fit another piece of sports equipment in that little space (everything from golf clubs to lacrosse sticks!)

They had a poster on the back of their door that said, "Vote Abstinence 2004. NO DICK, NO BUSH"

October 31, 2004
8:56 pm
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LOL!!! That was the best one yet!

Thx for the laugh up!!!

Sunny

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