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Analysis of the "For WD Only" Thread
July 29, 2004
7:58 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hello, SC et-al.

Site Coordinator, I submit that you would do well to re-read this thread and consider the idea that it would be appropriate for you to take back some things that you said. You have objected to the tone, language, content and flirting of the thread.

The thread is firstly a response to a direct question regarding advice given to Juanita by her psychotherapist, and also a response to her direct request for advice regarding enjoying a sexual relationship with her husband. Also raised is the general question about “is this normal/what do men like, etc.?”

One concern that you have raised is the unspeakable horror of “flirtation.”

Theoretically this site is “about love in its many forms.”
Flirtation is defined as “to speak or behave amorously, without serious intentions…”
Amorous is defined as “inclined toward or displaying love.”
So we can define flirtation for this purpose as “Speech which displays love.”
“Love” in this case meaning affirmation, support, unconditional positive regard, warmth.

Logically speaking , if this site is about love, it is also about flirtation.

Now let’s look at the offending text itself….
The “Flirtation”” such as it was, was contained in these two posts.

“Flirtation” number 1.:
And don't even think of getting on a plane to Seattle to visit the incredibly talented but long-deprived Worried_Dad. And then don't take I-5 south until you reach the exit at....Definitely don't turn left on....and whatever you do don't ring the doorbell of the big grey house.

I know, I know, why should you deprive yourself of the mind-bending pleasure of my skillful attentions?..heck if I know!

“Flirtation” # 2:
WD -
God! Make my heart flutter! Miss the chance with an incredibly sexy, wise, talented man like yourself, who is a FANTASTIC kisser?? When's the next flight? Leave instructions at the Gate where to go next!

Don't tell me you ride a Harley! Think I'll pass out....
Thanks for the love...
XO Juanita

Now when you look at the text of this “flirtation” there is no explicit or graphic imagery or crude language there. What you see that it is completely innocent, friendly, warm and humorous.

Now Juanita, and free, and twinks, may all be fine, attractive women. And I have affection, cathexis, maybe even love for them sometimes. But one thing I will never feel for any of them is sexual attraction. That is because whatever their fine qualities, they manifest themselves to me as text on a computer screen! Any flirtation that occurs on an anonymous site has got to evoke humor. Got to.

And the humor was the most important thing for me. The “flirtation” which was completed in my next post was actually a humorous meta analysis of “flirtation” in the context of an anonymous community.. Darn it, you interrupted me before I could get to my brilliant “paper bag” punch-line, which could have been even more brilliantly worded if I hadn’t been flustered by what you said, SC. And you didn’t even laugh at my joke!

Let’s get statistical….

Okay this thread, up until the intervention of the Site Coordinator, contains

Total Posts by Juanita 8

Total Number of Words by Juanita: 2,879

Total number of “flirtatious” words by Juanita: 54 (1.9%)

Total Posts by WD: 7

Total Number of words by WD: 1,279

Total number of “:flirtatious” words by WD: 67 (5.2%)

Total Words exchanged by Juanita and WD: 5456

Total number of “flirtatious” words: 121 (2.2 %)

However dangerous flirtation may be to society, it is such a vanishingly small percentage of the thread in question that the SC’s response seems way out of proportion to me.

Let’s consider tone and content. As we see above, more than 98% of Juanita’s posts were straight-as-an-arrow descriptions of her process with her husband and therapist.
95% of WD’s posts were straight-arrow support, affirmation, information, education and advice.

The content of this thread is largely about responding to a psychotherapist’s advice to Juanita. My suggestion is that she take that advice with a shaker of salt and instead try to work things out within the marital relationship. I think it would be more offensive if I were to advise Juanita that yes, her shrink is right and she should be honored that her husband wants her to become a swinger. Sheesh!

The tone of the thread, although occasionally warm and friendly or humorous, is overwhelmingly factual, academic, philosophical and educational.

The language of the thread is never coarse, crude, salacious, titillating, prurient, graphic, or obscene.
I am having a hard time locating within the thread content, language, or tone which is offensive or harmful. Please point it out to me, SC.

You know, SC, you have the right to determine what is “appropriate” for whatever area of your site that you please, and I’m happy to go along with you. However, given the guidelines “as written,” this thread is 100% on-topic and appropriate as far as I can tell.

There is a question in my mind of what kind of voyeur would feel the need to read a post entitled “For WD Only” in the first place and then would subsequently feel entitled to be offended and complain about what they found there. It is also annoying that they didn’t have the guts to talk to me about it personally, rather than passive-aggressively running to the Site Coordinator.

SC you made a point about sexuality being a “hot button” for those who have recently been sexually abused or raped. My question is were the people who complained to you victims of sexual abuse? I’m not aware of any literature teaching that people who have been sexually victimized need to be protected from frank conversations about normal adult sexuality in the context of marriage. In fact exposure to and desensitization to such material is an orthodox approach to healing the wounds of sexual abuse. I point out to you that the people posting on the thread are people who have recently and are currently experiencing some level of sexual victimization.

I think it unlikely that a many rape victims would be traumatized by reading that thread. I think it more likely that some people would be offended in their prudishness, and I suspect that is the type of complaint that you got from the board. Certainly that is the tone you yourself have evinced. The point has been made that repression and shame around sexuality contributes to sexual victimization and contributes to creating a society where women like Juanita find themselves in the ludicrous position of having to beg for information about “what is normal?”

What victims of sexual and domestic abuse WILL FIND and HAVE FOUND to be offensive and traumatic here are as follows….

Any male or lesbian or gay victim of domestic violence who navigates to the DV portion of this site will instantly be confronted with politically motivated misinformation about their condition, as well as negation and invalidation of their experience and a minimization of their suffering. And there isn’t even a stinking definition of abuse or domestic violence there. Could there please be developed some more thorough, accurate and socially responsible content developed and placed out front? Pretty please?

When I first arrived here I was instantly subjected to a raging, angry jealous diatribe by a woman who described graphically her homicidal fantasies involving firearms and sexual mutilation of her prospective victim. Not a peep form the SC, though.

Then we had the guy who went on and on and on about how there would be no abuse if victim’s didn’t have poor self-esteem. Pages and pages of victim blaming and the SC has nothing to say about it.

Then we have pages and pages and pages of text from you-know-who, who identifies with batterers, who actually might be a batterer, apologia for the woman who put me, my child and my family through hell for so many years, and who then goes on to explain that the actions of a certain child molester are no big deal and why are we all so upset. She’s just right as rain though, I guess.

Oh, then we have the child molester himself who spent pages and pages explaining how his crimes were just like, well, an accident, could happen to anyone, and how each and every one of us, truth be told, was potentially a child molester just like him. And then we were subjected to his seemingly endless diatribes about how the laws regarding reporting child molesters are just way to harsh, and that psychiatrists should keep their dirty little secrets as long as they really, really want to spend money on a psychiatrist to explore their chlidhood traumas.

And of course, more recently we had raging, verbally abusive Milo who methodically trashed the guidelines of this site for almost one hundred posts before the SC had anything to say. And did the SC even once suggest to Milo that his tone, his language, God forbid the content of his posts were “innappropriate?” No, it was like, how can I help poor sweet Milo, never mind that you cannot help anyone who is unable to follow even the most basic rules of civility or common decency.

Yeah, I found all of those characters to be offensive, and if I had any adrenaline remaining in my glands I might have experienced them as traumatic too. God knows what impact those folks had on AAC readers who have less stout constitutions than I.

All of that anger and hatred and violence permitted to parade across this site for a whole year, but when we get to a frank and good natured converstaion about sexuality within marriage, SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!

Now let’s consider SC’s posts to the thread.
“This thread is sounding like a late night I/M conversation, and is not appropriate on all about counseling.”

What we have there is shaming, accusation and name calling—the very opposite of respect.

“If WD would like to continue giving 'advice', it needs to be moved to the liberation brew threads. “
What we have there is sarcasm and devaluation. What we have here is dangerously close to verbal abuse. If you find the information or concepts or advice that I gave Juanita to be invalid, just say so for heaven’s sake.

With all due respect SC, as best I can tell, your post violates the guidelines for posting in All About Counseling..

July 29, 2004
10:09 pm
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WD you rowdy rebel-rouser!

Darn tootin' I'm attractive.
Headin for Mexico Saturday to work on my tan and dine on authentic cuisine.

As a mathematician, must admit the stats drew me in. How long did that take to do and are those valid stats?

Juanita and wd, I really think things are getting blown out of proportion. Please don't take offense to that.

Just let it go and continue on.

free

July 29, 2004
10:21 pm
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Wow, oh wow, oh wow WD...

Can I say I THINK I love you?

I can't believe you spent the time counting all the words we typed...

You are an impressive, diligent, smart, direct & out-spoken man...

Yes! I don't have to guess what you mean - you speak English! Well, occassionally I do have to dig out the dictionary 🙂

I'm just hurt someone/people complained. Why I'd like to know. Like you said, no one told us directly WHAT bothered them. And I agree, I specifically entitled that thread for you. I respect & don't look at the threads listed to "hey Camer" or whoever.

I'm not gonna continue on this thread as I've already said similar on our thread. No need to repeat - especially as you have spoken so well.

Thank you for sticking up for me/us/our conversation.

Juanita

July 30, 2004
9:39 am
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Not that I mind having a separate area for "special" posts. I have several times complained that there is too much stuff here that victims of abuse just don't want to or need to see and couldn't there please be a way to segregate.

And I guess the five posters I mentioned were more traumatic than I cared to admit--I must have been carrying a head of steam needing venting. Toot Toooot!

Do ya get what I mean about flirting in anonymity--that there's no way for anything to actually happen?

Statistics wise, I just cut and pasted text into MS Word and used "Word Count" from the "Tools" menu. IMO, MS Word is what justifies the existence of Microsoft.

July 30, 2004
10:38 am
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Ok...

Are you two saying that you want me to spend my life analyzing and dissecting threads on these boards?

I just don't have the time, and no one does.

These are discussion boards that require honoring requests when made.

My request, is that you please respect my decisions, and honor them with respect. I see this thread as a direct question and mutilation of respect for the way these boards function, and making demands, requests, and criticisms of the decisions and methods.

There simply aren't resources available to do what you ask WD. There may be other online boards that suite these needs and maintain anonymity, peace, respect, and safety at the same time. Please refer us, and then there is no need for discussion boards such as these, I can close them.

Even if paid to do such explaining, investigations, and reporting on the level you are asking, it would be a daunting task that no one human being could handle. The two of you are even at this point, creating a daunting task for me, and are challenging a respect that needs to be maintained for healthy functioning of these boards. These boards have been on-line through much that you are referring to, and it is through my experience with these issues, that decisions are made.

Please, I request that you honor my decisions and interventions when they are made. There aren't explanations or reasons to satisfy everyone.

July 30, 2004
11:12 am
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I haven't challenged your request to move the thread here. I think it's a fine, fine idea.

Most of the time you function in a pretty cool way--very light touch, very neutral in your tone.

But characterizing my post as an X-rated internet sex thing is kinda overboard.

Actually, I'm really just asking you to follow the posting guidelines. It is crazymaking when the leader doesn't follow their own rules. Don't call unwarranted names. Don't use a shaming, accusing tone. Don't blame me if I, in good faith do something not forbidden in the guidelines.

I wouldn't ask you do do a bunch of extra programming and maintainence. But it is sad that so much energy has gone into creating content at the front of the site which is downright unhelpful and misleading.

As for mutilating respect--if asking for respect equals mutilating respect then the world has turned upside down. I don't think that's what you want.

July 30, 2004
2:04 pm
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"SC you made a point about sexuality being a “hot button” for those who have recently been sexually abused or raped. My question is were the people who complained to you victims of sexual abuse? I’m not aware of any literature teaching that people who have been sexually victimized need to be protected from frank conversations about normal adult sexuality in the context of marriage. In fact exposure to and desensitization to such material is an orthodox approach to healing the wounds of sexual abuse. I point out to you that the people posting on the thread are people who have recently and are currently experiencing some level of sexual victimization."

I'm sorry to butt in. But I have to make a comment on this. I am a sexual abuse survivor. I was molested when I was 5, raped when I was 12, and raped again when I was 19. Lotsa therapy on this issue. Never once was the concept of exposure therapy brought up. This is actually a behavioral psychology technique used for people with phobias, not PTSD or rape trauma syndrome. There is a huge difference in the diagnosis.

I've been in therapy for approximately 7 years, and my rape trauma and PTSD and how it affects my life has been the main focus. No one ever suggested I flirt, or read erotica, or watch sexual scenarios, to overcome the sexual issues I have. I am a little offended, actually, and I am no prude. God knows, after my second rape I thought I was such damaged good that I did everything under the sun and am luck to not have HIV.

I'm offended because I've had to deal with the thoughtlessness or ignorance of people around this issue for my entire adult life. Every relationship I get in involves a long process of educating my partner about PTSD and rape trauma issues. I have learned to accept that I will never have a "normal" concept of sexuality. My ideas about sex will always be warped to a certain degree, because of my experiences with sex.

I have always held my tongue, and in fact I did not complain to anyone about your thread in particular. Most people who have experienced sexual abuse are afraid to bother anyone else with their problems. It's a secret that many of us still feel the remnants of shame about.

Anyways, I just wanted to comment on that one thing you said about exposure therapy and rape trauma victims. I would be more than happy to point you to a good essay about the subject if you are interested.

All other issues I won't touch with a 10 foot pole on this thread, except to maybe say...the beatles said it best, "whisper words of wisdom, let it be"

July 30, 2004
2:08 pm
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Oh, BTW, the technique you may be referring to is technically called "Flooding" and involves a relaxtion exercise in the therapists office, then a memory of the rape (not the complete scenario, but bits at a time), followed by more relaxation exercises. I went through this and personally think it's a crock, but if it works for other people whatever.

July 30, 2004
2:53 pm
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Hi Cici,

Of course I am interested in any resources you point to. It's gonna take me a lifetime to read them all you know.

The point has been made that almost everyone in the world has had a better therapist than mine.

I was actually thinking of the DV chapter "Treating PTSD" edited by David Foy, and also of some other rape victims I've known who have been helped by frank conversations in the light of day.

I certainly would never want to offend you or to say anything that would be painful or traumatic for you.

July 30, 2004
3:38 pm
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Hey people's

I think what is referred to as potentially harmful to recent survivors are the "triggers". Sexual conversations are filled with them, and the survivor has to learn to recognize them and then develop a coping strategy for them. Triggers are individual things, however, frank sexual discussions with undertones are notoriously filled with these triggers. Survivors of a recent experience or survivors who are just beginning to heal are particularly sensitive to these triggers, and consequently tend to avoid situations where they are found kuz they haven't yet learned to cope with them. In time, the survivor learns that triggers are not avoidable, and must be dealt with. But it takes time.

We don't wanna create situations that make these people afraid, yet we want to be able to speak openly. We want these people to feel comfortable and safe. So, moving the threads over here, is a really good idea, don't ya think? My guess is that complaints may have been made by recent survivor(s). After reading the thread, a trigger was hit, and then each time that person came back, the very thread title had become a trigger.

I know there is frustration in this kuz ya wanna speak openly, and understandably so. Very understandably so-survivors can tax patience. Try to remember what these triggers mean for these people. Flashbacks are a brief re-living of the experience, they are horrifying, confusing, highly anxiety arousing, kind of like a nightmare- seemingly last so long but in reality only moments at most a minute or so. Avoidance coping strategy might pop in, and if the survivor is "moderate", meaning in healing and beginning to recognize triggers, he/she won't go away (as a new healer would), he/she will ask to be protected from these triggers and the situations that are causing them.

wd, Juanita, if I were to say to you "Please, I mean no offense, but I read your posts, and now I know I shouldn't have, but I can't sleep, I forget to eat, I wonder around the house moving things thinking I'm cleaning, I've bumped my head into the kitchen cabinets and turned too early into the bedroom and hit the door frame, all I want to do is make it to tomorrow and it seems so far away, yet I can't seem to keep track of time-I'm in some time warp all my own and have no control, I cry, and I cry, and I cry........I cry kuz I'm angry, I cry kuz I'm sad, I cry kuz I'm helpless, I cry kuz I'm dirty, I cry kuz I'm ugly, I cry kuz I'm worthless, I cry kuz I'll never be the same again, I cry kuz inside I am dying.....I cry, and I cry, and I cry.

I'm hurting. More than I've ever hurt before"

What would you say to me?

If an advocate(they speak for survivors in healing who are not yet able to speak for themselves) popped in, and told you these things, and then said "could you guys move over there, where this conversation is not seen or heard? Please don't feel guilty or responsible because you are not, but rather, simply sensitive"

What would you say to that advocate?

I just think I've an idea as to what you would say. I just think your hearts would pour out. I just think it would not be taken personally.

Would it?

free

July 30, 2004
4:48 pm
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Yes that would have worked for me Free. Or simply "Hey guys, we have another special section just for sexuality and way out stuff--and hardly anyone uses it! Could you please move your thread there?" That would have worked too.

Mind you I get "triggered" quite a bit on this site too. Gun stuff particularly bugs me.

July 30, 2004
10:19 pm
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Ah, yes, wd. Guns.

Butt-Lovely image just went through my head.

There goes another one. Another.

I think the difference is that we're not new to it. Still causes that ugh-sigh feeling.

Hope I haven't offended you, wd, you know I love ya! Rowdy rebel rouser and all.

free

July 30, 2004
10:20 pm
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And another.

Off to the shower!

free

July 31, 2004
6:44 pm
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WD -

What will I do without your advice on how to "shock the socks off" my hubby? We move this thread so we may continue our honest conversation & now you are leaving me to think of things on my own??? Sheesh, I'm just a sweet, innocent, gal .... not a kinky thought in my head!

I am sooo bummed! You were supposed to be my "S.C" .... ;-}

Please don't leave me & tell me this conversation got too hot for you to handle?

Tell me you have a few posts left ... I honestly hate to see you go.

If I were single, WD, I hear there is a flight to Seattle, a scenic drive on I-5 where I get off at exit #____, and there is a wonderful coffee house that has people playing live music... There is a mysterious man there with his harmonica and guitar... So intriguing - his eyes, which I can't quite clearly make out the color, hold so much emotion while he plays his music. I just want to get to know him better. Does he wear a mustache or beard? A 5 o'clock shadow? Hmmm, the picture isn't complete yet... I think I'll order 2 slices of cheesecake, and a tea & a coffee - see if I can entice him over here for a little bit.

Is it working??? Maybe if I tell him his Mom is trying to reach him & she left a message with me would he come over? If he thinks I have his Mom's approval, maybe I'll have a foot in the door?

The cheesecake is coming.... I can't eat 2 pieces alone.... WD?

August 2, 2004
4:38 pm
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Well, just to differentiate, rape trauma syndrome is a different psychological disorder than PTSD. PTSD is longterm, and usually cumulative, and the two are often confused....but you treat them differently because sexuality is a hot button issue.

Most of the PTSD research I've read (this was my pet topic while getting my degree because my father has severe PTSD from WWII, the korean war, and the vietnam war) is based on war veterans or people who have experienced environmental disasters or physical violence. I think there are different protocols for each PTSD subtype.

Dr. Aphrodite Matsakis wrote a great book called "I can't get over it: A Handbook for Trauma Survivors". She said, "Different Aspects of PTSD are more common and more intense with different types of trauma." Veterans are more prone to survivor guilt than, say, rape victims.

Domestic violence is by definition different from rape. Domestic violence and sexual abuse involves longterm abuses and violations, whereas rape and sexual assault are one-time occurances.

Anyways, this is a great therapeutic handbook for people with a variety of PTSD sub-types, and it lists exercises for specific subtypes of the disorder as well.

August 2, 2004
8:19 pm
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Thanks, Cici I will check it out.

Sometimes I think it will never end, that I will be this way forever.

August 2, 2004
9:20 pm
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WD - so glad you are here. I am hoping what messages I am sending you are not triggers...

Would never want to do anything to cause you further pain.

Would you care for some cheesecake & coffee? (I meant to ask did you ever read Z's & my thread, last part anyway...?)

August 3, 2004
11:53 am
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wd - whatever you believe will happen usually has the most control over the end results. Sorry if I inundated you with info. My pet topic, ya know, that and buddhism, so whenever I get a chance to spout off I like to. Makes me feel like all the space it takes up in my brain warehouse is worthwhile.

At the risk of sounding like Tez...who is the "I" who will be like this forever?

Here we go. Thich Naht Hanh...wrote of the Five Remembrances:

1. I am of the nature to grow old. I cannot escape old age

2. I am of the nature to have ill health; I cannot escape ill health.

3. I am of the nature to die; I cannot escape dying.

4. All that is dear to me and everyone I love are of the nature to change. There is no way to escape being separated from them. I cannot keep anything. I come here empty-handed, and I go empty-handed.

5.My actions are my only true belongings. I cannot escape the consequences of my actions. My actions are the ground on which I stand.

August 3, 2004
1:07 pm
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Cici,

Thanks for the info. I feel most comfortable while being inundated with information.

I'm just tired of the nightmares, tired of....it.

Juanita,

I normally eat sweets, but Cheescake is actually my favorite. Without cherries. With coffee, of course.

Guess I'm feeling better today a little. Time for a new thread, maybe.

August 3, 2004
1:40 pm
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My dear, sweet, cheesecake-loving man -

You didn't answer my two comments/questions.

Need some coffee too? Or expresso? Or would you be a tea lover like myself?

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