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"American" Muslims should be under search and seizure
May 13, 2007
11:31 am
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Robert123
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I would hunt down the spotted mouse and if he had cookie crumbs on his whiskers...well, lets say he will get to see if there really are virgins in heaven.

May 13, 2007
1:59 pm
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LOL

"Here's the proof that I'm right

- I'm stirring up feelings of frustration in you and maybe other people, because they're unable to answer my simple cookie question"

I think I answered you quite well. And again, you flatter yourself guest-guest. You don't frustrate me. You're boring and simple. That's probably why this thread is dying. I keep looking for Free and WD and other intelligent life out there. Since I'm not finding it, I'm through here.

May 13, 2007
7:28 pm
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Keep avoiding the question.

Like Bill O rielly says "the spin stops here".

I'm boring and not intelligent? Personal attacks. Another sign of defeat.

May 13, 2007
8:22 pm
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Am I gonna get a good answer to the cookie question from anyone or not?

You know, even I dont know the best answer to that question. I want the best answer and I want it now!

May 13, 2007
9:11 pm
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healintime
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Under US law, the mouse with the spot on its ear would possibly be questioned, but the mouse police wouldn't be able to go into its hole without a warrant. And the mouse with the spot on its ear, even if charged, would be innocent until proven guilty. That's the legal system and I thin kit works just fine.

Because if the mouse police barged into that mouse hole, ransaked his mouse shelves, furniture and quarantines his little mouse PC on suspicion, they would be breaking the law and victimizing a mouse who may not have set a paw wrong.

But guest - what you're really saying is that if your cookie was stolen by a mouse with a spot on its ear, even once - that we should suspect every mouse with a spot on its ear. That's not cool. Not for the mouse who may have stolen your cookie - and not for every law-abiding, non-cookie-stealing mouse with an unfortunate freckle.

Up until 2001, the Oklahoma bombing was the worst terrorist attack on US soil. Timothy McVeigh was sentenced to death for his crime. In teh aftermath their was no talk of search and seize for all 27 year old blonde male veteran/republican/NRA members.

If you ever get a chance to see it there is a fantastic ducumentary called "The Power of Nightmares" about the road to 9/11 and the real difficulty that Bin Laden had in raising support for his cause among Muslims in the Middle East.

Most of the Muslims I know are wonderful, peaceful, hardworking and gentle. That's my experience. I will not judge them on the actions of a minority who were no more fanatical and unbalanced as a 27 year old white male republican.

There's your answer, from me at least.

May 13, 2007
9:21 pm
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healintime
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And by the way - if all the peaceful, law-abiding freckle mice were searched and seized - I can imagine that they might get pretty pissed off. The Mouse police might actually give the freckle-mice good reason to be extremely anti-Mouse Police and pretty pissed off at th emouse community for letting it happen. Then before you know it, there is a hige rift in the Mousey community, with mice left right and centre checking out each other's ears to see whether a mouse is "one of us" or "one of them." Next thing you know, the whole mouse world is divided based on freckles.

That would be a mouse tragedy.

May 13, 2007
9:37 pm
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healintime,

You restore my faith, you rock.

-ella

May 13, 2007
9:57 pm
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healintime
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Hey Ella,

You too.

And for the record, this Mouse used to live eight blocks from the WTC, and a dear mouse friend lost her husband on the day that all this metaphorical talk of mice and cookies started. I understand the fear, the shock, the grief - all of it. But I think it's really important - actually, cancel that - I think that I have a rsponsibility not to channel that fear and grief into more fear and grief for people who have done nothing to warrant having fear and grief brought into their lives.

Fear and grief are not a lot of fun. Wouldn't it be great if mouse politicians ran on platforms of harmony and acceptance - sadly I think that they feel nowadays that they have to keep us scared to keep us voting.

Guest - just one mouse's opinion - you are welcome to yours and I respect your right to have it.

May 13, 2007
10:02 pm
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healintime
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P.S. Wouldn't it be great if we lived in a world where all the money spent on mouse wars was channelled into health and education - and to making sure that every mouse had a fair chance to earn and enjoy their own cookies. If everyone had a cookie, the mouse police might even be out of business.

May 13, 2007
10:54 pm
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guest-guest-

Yes, you do have your right to your opinion, free speech is one of the most important rights in this country. On that note, you must allow others their and realize that no matter how hard you try to needle them into agreeing with you, you may never succeed. I answered your question and you refused to see that. I don't expect an agreement from you, but you must acknowledged that I answered you and put in effort to do so.

It's unfortunate that you took my comments personally, did not read carefully enough to see that I answered your questions completely, and that I later was forced to explain why I didn't elaborate further. Yes, I was bored I'm sorry that bothers you but then don't be so redundant. You wanted an answer, it wasn't to your liking, you practically jumped up and down and wanted to know why you weren't getting more of a response. I answered you a little more less pleasantly, but isn't that what you were looking for? I think so. You even told me above I didn't have to be "nice." Well, then I was honest, and it upsets you. I think my responses to your early predjudice fueled sentiments were quite civilized, actually. You did not defeat me, only succeed in making me feel bad for you and regret wasting my time.

Wow, I'm on vacation, watching movies and have time to kill. Otherwise I'd never get embroiled in such a web of nonsense. The temptation is to think that you can shed light on ignorance by expressing yourself once you hear something hateful or narrow. Unfortunately, it just prolongs the b.s. So, my bad.

-ella

May 14, 2007
7:39 am
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healintime
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oooh, Ella!

On vacation watching moves sounds like bliss right about now. I'm writing about mice and sweets because I am procrastinating on a work project that seems to be endless 😉

Have a gorgeous vaca - and I don't think you wasted your time. No matter what a person's opinion - if we get too frustrated and stop talking about these things then mouse politicians (some of whom have big, huuuuge investments in companies that do very nicely indeed out of mouse conflict) will just keep on keeping on.

Some of the most significant changes in history have started with just one voice. Easy to forget that nowadays, but true.

H x

May 14, 2007
2:14 pm
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glittered when he walked
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search and seizure is a bit draconian for me. But i have NO problem with profiling...otherwise known as good policework. But for the record..Bill oreilly is a self-righteous windbag who should shut up and go away...but he's not half the idiot that Sean Hannity is.

May 14, 2007
4:27 pm
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glittered when he walked-

So glad someone besides me said that! 😉

-e

May 14, 2007
5:25 pm
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glittered when he walked
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OK..yeah i would suspect spotted mice more...I probably kill all of the mice anyway though...and I certainly wouldn't search and seize them...those little hanta virus breeders. ; )

Now, are american muslims stealing our cookies? Well, at least our pork rinds will be safe ; )

May 14, 2007
5:44 pm
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Healingtime

"what you're really saying is that if your cookie was stolen by a mouse with a spot on its ear, even once"

No, thats not what I said. You're putting words in my mouth. You avoided my questions again.

I said that for the past 99% of the times, the cookie was stolen by a spotted mouse. Did I say "just once"? No. Sorry - try again.

You wrote:

"Because if the mouse police barged into that mouse hole, ransaked his mouse shelves, furniture and quarantines his little mouse PC on suspicion, they would be breaking the law and victimizing a mouse who may not have set a paw wrong."

Only an idiot would suggest this. I did not. Please dont go into extremities.

Do I have the ask the frigging questions? Oh my god. I cant beleive that I asked a simple clear question and this is what I got.

Amazing, just frikking amazing. I feel like swearing my head off.

"Most of the Muslims I know are wonderful, peaceful, hardworking and gentle."

8 years ago, I was one of them, but thats besides the point. Did I say they were not? No, I didnt. You liberals are just never gonna get it. I asked a simple question and I saw you slip out of it. Expected!

Ok - do I really have to ask the question again? Maybe I will, alright. Good god, I really thought we had some intelligent people here. This is just sad.

May 14, 2007
6:05 pm
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healintime
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guest-guest it seems like you're spoiling for an argument and I have been nothing but courteous and respectful.

It's not okay to insult the intelligence of people who have taken time to respond to your question and who have treated you fairly. Your question has been asked repeatedly, and answered repeatedly. You seem to want to keep asking until you get the answer that you want - and that's not what free and fair discussion is about.

Would I suspect a mouse who had stolen my cookie 99 percent of the time? I f he had stolen my cookie 99 percent of the time and it had been proven beyond a doubt - that mouse would be in jail. But that's not what search and seize (the title of this thread and the topic of discussion) is. Search and seize is the process of invading the constitutional rights of people who are suspected of -maybe- being involved in cookie stealing - with no need to prove anything other than the fact you had a hunch.

I take exception to you assuming that I have a political affiliation - there are many Republicans who think that search and seize is unconstitutional.

May 14, 2007
6:08 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi guest,

Well, I don't mind if you *suspect* any mouse of anything you like.

But if the mouse is an American citizen, then they must be afforded the protection of the 4th amendment.

Otherwise, the terrorists (and their friends in public office) will have succeeded in destroying a fundamental piece of American culture and law.

It's the constitution. Love it.

May 14, 2007
6:08 pm
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healintime
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And you totally ignored one of my points - Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist. On paper he couldn't have been any more of a patriot - he even went to war for his country. Shouldn't -everyone- in the US be subjected to a lie detector test to see whether they're a patriot? So that US born citizens who aren't "patriots" are identified too? Or do you think that Oklahoma and 9/11 are different in some way?

May 14, 2007
6:34 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi healintime,

Were you talking to me?

I have not read this thread in its entirety, so I am not sure what you are getting at. I just responded to the title and a direct request for response from guest.

You ask:"Shouldn't -everyone- in the US be subjected to a lie detector test to see whether they're a patriot?"

The answer is "no" for three reasons.

1) Because of the 4th amendment, it is not only illegal, but also unpatriotic and anti-American to require everyone to undergo any sort of examination.

2) "Patriotism" is a poorly defined concept--it means different things for different people. To allow any contemporaneous authority to define "patriotism" opens us up to all sorts of abuses. For example, an American Professor who gave guest lectures criticizing the war in Iraq had been put on the "no-fly" list. So now he has to drive to Harvard to give lectures.

There are many, many examples of actual patriots being subjected to government harassment and persecution for political reasons--that is called fascism.

3) I promise you that there is NO SUCH THING as a "lie detector test."

But even of there were, subjecting everyone to it would be against the 4th amendment.

May 14, 2007
6:45 pm
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healintime
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Hi WD,

Wasn't directed at you - I'm familiar with the 4th amendment and I think it's gorgeous. Seems to me that when people talk about being patriotic, they're at least in part talkinabout the constitution - with good reason. I've lived under a number of political systems and am a wholehearted supporter of the constitution and bill of rights.

I was addressing Guest's first point - which was that everyone who wants to live in the US should be admitted to a lie detector test - and I was using the example of Timothy McVeigh as someone who was born, and bred in the US and had served his country. In other words - right up until his crime, he would have easily fallen into many people's definition of "patriot." And yet..

Having lived in the US several times and having been grilled from pillar to post by the INS before being granted a visa - I can vouch for the fact that under the current system - nobody is being "just let" into the country. A Pakistani friend who is doing his PhD in California (chemical engineering - poor guy) was questioned for seven hours the last time he came home from his summer break.

H x

May 14, 2007
6:48 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi healintime,

Oh I see. You and I are on the same page then.

Consider my response to the lie detector question to be directed at guest then.

May 14, 2007
9:40 pm
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healing, sorry if I came a little harsh. Anyway, that doesnt matter.

Your giving the example of Timothy McViegh is like, giving the example of one non-spotted mouse who also stole a cookie.

The fact is that 95% of your cookie thefts were done by spotted mouse.

Next time your cookie is stolen, and you dont think there's a 95% chance that its a spotted mouse, well, I guess you failed in your probability class.

May 14, 2007
9:45 pm
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It's not surprising that the INS is giving people from anywhere a hard time at this point. Actually, I have a coworker who comes from Canada (she is a white non-Muslim) and she says when she goes home to visit- she is never sure if she will get back into the country on time for work, or even at all. Sometimes it just depends on how cranky the customs people are that day! I'm not sure if she has permanent citizenship yet. It's all very uncertain. I don't know if it was like that before 9-11 or not. I do imagine that if what she says is true, that someone's "mood" can hold you up at customs... so can someone's prejudice.

Though I don't want to see this country turn into a police state, hate seeing guys with machine guns at Port Authority, etc., I do understand to a degree that they want to take some precautions. For example, not allowing certain things on airplanes is fine. But not to the point of reversing constitutional rights and causing a hostile and racist environment.

It sucks that things have come to this because it will change the culture of our country a lot if it continues. I can see why they want to do thorough checks of people, like healingtime says- a terrorist can be anyone. They can "look" like howdy-doody eating apple pie for crying out loud.

It sucks that things have come to this because it will change the culture of our country a lot if it continues. People from elsewhere bring all sorts of positive contributions to this country. I know this is a different topic, but will this change? Will we become so paranoid and insular that we become completely xenophobic? We are a nation of immigrants. How can that be denied?

May 14, 2007
10:04 pm
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healintime
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**healing, sorry if I came a little harsh. Anyway, that doesnt matter.**

**Next time your cookie is stolen, and you dont think there's a 95% chance that its a spotted mouse, well, I guess you failed in your probability class.**

Actually Guest - it does matter, and it's not okay. You closed by directly insulting me again and that's not okay either.

Whatever your viewpoint, whatever the other person's - productive discussion stops at the point where you start personally attacking the person that you're having the discussion with. Be it their intelligence, their logic, or their person.

I've treated you respectfully - you didn't reciprocate - and while I would have been happy to hear more of your viewpoint otherwise, unfortunately that means that for me, the conversation is over.

May 15, 2007
2:32 am
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free
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Hi ella-

wow. this thread went bonkers.

Honestly, and I'm blushing- feeling a little ashamed I guess, I was looking for wd kuz I was worried about him.

I was here checking in- kinda crazy around my home as of late- and I read down to your post and wanted to respond. You said nice things about me- thanks, ella, I kinda needed that right now.

This definitely hit some buttons in these halls- is turning out to be an interesting discussion.

I just know that when I read or hear these things, I feel uncomfortable, unsettled.

How does a nation like ours fight something like this? Our freedom is so important to us, our foundation, our power, our strength.

yet, it's being exploited. It's a weakness in war.

Gotta admit, them terrorists are pretty ingenious.

We must fight them as they threaten our percieved right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness. yet, if we compromise our freedom to fight them, they win, as they will have destroyed exactly THAT.

so.

I dunno. I don't like this whole idea of search and seizure and blah-blah.

there just has to be another way.

free

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