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"American" Muslims should be under search and seizure
May 11, 2007
2:31 am
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free
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I heard somebody say this. American Muslims should be under search and seizure by our government. Not like the japanese were in WWII, but to protect this country during this war on terrorism they must not enjoy the liberties that non-muslims do.

What do you think of that?

free

May 11, 2007
4:42 am
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sleepless in uk
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Smart move Free

if that doesnt flush him out nothing will...except maybe a brand new 'What is so wrong with porn anyway' thread
🙂

May 11, 2007
6:19 pm
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I have a former friend from Somalia who saw a picture of Osama and said to me "Now this guy is right". Can you believe that? Yeaa.

The US needs to keep track of the extremists in this country. I'm a former member of the faith and I wouldnt mind myself being monitored if it makes us more safe. But there should be the same liberties for everyone.

Everyone coming to this country should simply go through a lie detector test and prove that they are patriotic to this country. Thats just one requirement. The other requiremnts is stuff like driving tests and obeying rules, and using deodrant (yes thats true for some countries and people, sadly - they dont know what it is, and have to be taught) and etc. Basically, if a foerigner cant be a _good_ patriotic citizen, he should be not be allowed to stay here. I know of Chinese friends who even thought they might attempt to lie to the US government to get an asylum visa. That same friend didnt know how to drive, what a total idiot- she wasnt a terrorist but people like that have no place here. Even after all these requirements they should be monitored all the time.

The US has little control over the forigners that enter this country. Thats the US's own fault. Guests (which includes me) are to stay in this country according to our rules. If they dont like it, they can _ off.

You need a good foerigner like me being elected to office and pushing this agenda, but I dont have what it takes umm. maybe. I did check what it takes to get a job in the FBI, to help catch terrorists from my country but they need a citizenship. Thats a job I'd like doing. Maybe I'll try when I get my citizenship.

You know, I think that Gonzales is a total con-mon. He reminded me of another conman who came on the show. And that those car thieves from Mexico I saw on dateline. These thieves are the scum of the earth. Alright, dont call me a racist. I'm a forigner too, I have a licence to be discriminatory to foerigners (like blacks say they're allowed to use the N word).

May 11, 2007
11:07 pm
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Matteo
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"dont call me a racist"

Are you kidding???

You are a racist, big time, so big it is disgusting. You are the patriotic "good" guest who is exercising freedom of speech and freedom of being an asshole to everyone who is in any way different than you. I really feel like puking after reading your post.

May 12, 2007
4:07 am
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If American Muslims should be subject to search and seizure than all other
Americans should be treated equally. Then you will realize how out of control, and insane an idea that is. Besides, what makes you so sure that terrorists or violent individuals can't be white americans? Or Asian Americans? Or so on. Read the news as of late?

May 12, 2007
4:10 am
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The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.
--Benjamin Franklin

May 12, 2007
4:17 am
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typo:

Should read
"If American Muslims should be subject to search and seizure then all other Americans should be treated equal to them."

May 12, 2007
8:56 am
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Matteo, do you even KNOW what a racist is? Thats when you say that, a bad character quality in a certain person is becuase a person is from a certain race. Is that what I said? No. Please keep your accusations to yourself.

May 12, 2007
9:06 am
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Mzrella,

Suppose that 95% of terrorist attacks in the US were commited by Muslims. Why should they be treated equally? I dont agree. Thats not what rationale says.

If mice who like candy are the ones climbing up and stealing your cookies, the next time someone steals your cookie - are you going to treat all mice the same, or by rationale, would you suspect the candy mice more?

Lets get rid of the political correctness and lets get real. It doesnt help. I'm telling you that if officers were to keep an eye on me becuase I look like a terrorist, I wouldnt mind it. Why should I? Its reasonable for them to suspect me more. Thats ok. Thats how things are. The primary mission is to keep everyone safe. If them doing this cause them to intercept some communication from real terrorists and prevent 100 soldiers from being killed in an army base - is it not worth it? It is, 10 times more worth it.

May 12, 2007
12:28 pm
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This is a country, not an army base. Your arguement doesn't make sense. I live in NYC (I was downtown on 9/11) and I really don't think that turning my city into an internment camp would be the solution. Because you see, in your view, that's what would need to be done. There is nothing terrorists would love more than for us to stop our lifestyle and start living the way you described.

Not all Muslims are Al Queda. And since we have invaded Iraq do you realize that the number of Al Queda has increased? They increase their power hold when there is poverty and a weak power system. I don't think alienating American Muslims is going to help cut down on terrorism. Quite the opposite.

I don't think the answer is more hate and that is what your post is full of. Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense. I also don't think being a "foreigner" excludes you from sounding ignorant when you make generalizations about people.

"Looking" like a terrorist is not enough. If you were talking about people coming into the country, that would be one thing. Talking about Muslim Americans is another.

I stand by what I said. I think if you are going to start suspecting people, suspect EVERYONE. In the subways here we are still subject to random searches. I don't know why they do it to us when they do, maybe threats, who knows. Maybe just drills. But they don't do it by race. It is voluntary, but if you don't submit, you don't use the subway, get it? Everyone cooperates because it is for our safety. If they are singling people out, no one is made to feel that way. This is NYC and they still have time for that. We can't live our lives with so much fear we forget how to be civilized.

Do you really think that all groups of people are immune to coersion? What about white people married to muslims? I know some women like that. So if you want to get paranoid, you can look at all the young americans in this country who are FRIENDS with muslims. What about their business associates? Starting to sound like some other fascist countries to me before things got out of hand.

The 95% arguement doesn't make sense, so maybe you need to get real guest-guest. You can be trite and call my statements politically correct, but once certain freedoms are lost, they are very hard to get back. It is also very disturbing to think that we will go back to isolating certain groups and treating them as guilty before we find out if this is true. You don't want to be called a racist, don't act like one. And don't play semantics with that word. We all know what she meant.

The US's "fault"? This country only exists because of invading "foreigners" (the English), and those after them... any American or their ancestors. You have quite a warped view of who inhabits this country. Who are not foreigners at one point? Do you have to be a Daughter of the Revolution to be considered low risk by you? Is my grandmother a foreigner because she still speaks a little Italian? Or do you just mean people who were born here?

It is true that Al Queda is a threat. But if you think that all Muslims support Al Queda you don't know much about their countries. Most of them live in fear of them. They terrorize their own people. If they are joining them- well, you can imagine the conditions and the political climates of the countries that is happening in. Want to make it happen here? Start a divide like here against all muslims like you want to, marginalize them, subject them to discrimination, racism, and hate and see how things get better.

I think Free brought up an interesting question for debate, but I guess it was just a matter of time before people brought in the "those --- foreigners" type of statements. Geeze, I was hoping AAC was better than that.

peace,
ella

May 12, 2007
12:31 pm
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typo meant to read: Or do you just mean people who wereN'T born here?

May 12, 2007
1:14 pm
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Free-

Hopefully, my writing didn't come off sounding insulting to you personally. Sometimes I write too casual for the internet. The collective "you" should be avoided in writing as in speech. A bad habit of mine!

Even when our views differ, we've spoken in the past and you are always pretty eloquent. So I didn't mean any disrespect I just saw my post and realize it might be personalized by someone. Hopefully, that was not the case.

But what do you think should be done? You read a lot, you must have your own opinions. You've taught me a lot in the past so what do you know about all this?

-ella

May 12, 2007
1:30 pm
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Mzrella

Tell me how my candy mouse examples doesnt apply. Dont tell me "we're not all mice". Its just an example.

"There is nothing terrorists would love more than for us to stop our lifestyle and start living the way you described. "

I didnt suggest anything extreme like this. Why are you making false accusations?

"I think if you are going to start suspecting people, suspect EVERYONE."

Really? So, suppose your cookie was stolen. Will you suspect all mice equally even though you KNOW that 99% of the stolen cookies were stolen by mice with a pot on their left ear?

Thats not good science is not, MzRella?

"You've taught me a lot in the past"

Come on, no need to be nice. What is it that I taught you :p, and how did I teach you? Lets see if you were telling the truth. You dont have to be nice to me, just be straight.

Lets start with the mice example.

Starting facts:

- 99% of your cookies were stolen by mice with a spotted ear.

- Your cookie is stolen again.

- Who do you suspect stole this recent cookie? Are all mice to be suspected equally?

May 12, 2007
1:47 pm
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typo: spot, not pot

May 12, 2007
1:47 pm
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blah for other errors. you can figure it out.

May 12, 2007
2:55 pm
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Worried_Dad
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According to the fourth Amendment to the US constitution, that would be illegal.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I really, really like the fourth amendment. Unfortunately, in case you haven't heard, it has effectively been repealed by this administration--not just for Muslims but for EVERYONE.

Q: Besides the President, Who else doesn't like the fourth Amendment?

A: Satan, of course.

May 12, 2007
3:23 pm
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"against unreasonable searches and seizures"

Its not unreasonable to see a spotted mouse and search his home for the cookie. Pretty reasonable infact.

May 12, 2007
4:05 pm
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So its actually its unreasonable to equally suspect a non-Muslim for suspected terrorist activity and treat them the same as a Muslim. Its a violation of the 4th amendment. Comments?

May 12, 2007
8:37 pm
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guest-

""You've taught me a lot in the past"

Come on, no need to be nice. What is it that I taught you :p, and how did I teach you? Lets see if you were telling the truth. You dont have to be nice to me, just be straight.""

Perhaps you missed the salutation in my post. Guest guest, don't flatter yourself, I was speaking to Free. She and I have had discussions and differing opinions in the past, and I respect her. She began the discussion and asked the question. It was a nuetral statement if you read carefully, she did not post her opinion yet. Free is an intelligent woman so I wanted to hear it, no matter what it was. I didn't want her to think I was saying "you" in the first post in an attacking manner to her question.

Though I will refrain from expressing my true impressions of you (Guest-Guest) from reading your posts on this site, I don't feel like I "have to be nice" to you. You don't feel the same sense of respect for many people it seems, why should I towards you? I will respect site guidelines, but I don't think I owe you "niceness."

WD- that was good info, but can you also remind guest-guest what "good science" is? Because I think he needs to hear it from an authoritative voice.

-ella

May 12, 2007
9:10 pm
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ok Mzrella. So whats your response to my cookie question? that was the most important point I raised.

You WD and Matteo owe me a response for that.

May 12, 2007
9:13 pm
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WD-

""The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Yeah, that's pretty much what they are doing in subway and other NYC searches. Voluntary, if you refuse you are denied entry to whatever location, suspicious behavior or evidence of illegal activity (is the probable cause) and then I guess they take it from there. On a related note, I did hear of things getting a little out of hand during some of the marches for peace and the Republican convention. People say the arrests were unwarranted, etc. but I wasn't there, and don't know a lot about it. It's possible, but I've also seen crowd control in the city done with a lot of respect for individuals. So I guess you have to be there to know.

The whole Patriot Act thing is a little scary too, but in our public libraries- we care a lot about free speech and freedom of information- we have our ways of protecting privacy. After a book is borrowed and returned there is absolutely no record of this in the system.

These are some weird and scary times. Let's hope change can happen soon, before things become irreverseable.

-ella

May 12, 2007
10:37 pm
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guest-guest,

As for the mice thing, I don't "owe" you an answer for that either but I will say this:

In reply to "- 99% of your cookies were stolen by mice with a spotted ear.

- Your cookie is stolen again.

- Who do you suspect stole this recent cookie? Are all mice to be suspected equally?"

This is called suspicion, or in your case, predjudice even. Not science. You may feel you have numbers on your side, but you do not have evidence about the last cookie. So it is still suspicion without evidence. Prejudice. Wow, you might have been happier in the U.S. during the 50s.

There's not much more I have to say to you. This is getting boring. Unless someone else posts, I will lose interest in this thread.

May 13, 2007
1:11 am
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So you're gonna treat all the mice equally then?

May 13, 2007
9:02 am
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See. Here's the proof that I'm right

- I'm stirring up feelings of frustration in you and maybe other people, because they're unable to answer my simple cookie question

- they know if they answer either way, they're trapped

Now I might get a response but it will be too long winded and will still evade the question, so please, refer back to my original question and answer in a simple yes or no, as to:

"Given the fact that 99% of your past cookie thiefs were done by spotted mice, would you suspect all mice equally, or would you suspect a spotted mice more?"

May 13, 2007
9:03 am
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paste cookie THEFTS

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