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A Challenge to the Vatican and its supporters!
January 11, 2007
7:40 pm
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In the 1950, as a young boy attending Christian Brother's schools, I was repeatedly told that the Blessed Virgin Mary had appeared to the three children at Fatima and had left a third prophecy that was to be sealed in an envelope and kept in the Vatican only to be opened and made public in May 1960. Apparently, the first two prophecies came true.

To my great relief I escaped the clutches of the Christian Brothers in 1959. Since then 1960 has come and long gone.

This year when May 2007 arrives, 47 years will have passed since May 1960 without a word of that great event of the Vatican officially opening of the divine apparition's 'letter' having been publicized.

After so much touted anticipation, did the Vatican mysteriously forget to open the letter?

OR was there something in the letter that was decidedly distasteful and politically offensive in it that was too much for the Vatican hierarchy to bear, let alone expose the contents to the world's Catholics and other Christians?

Is there anyone out there, Catholic, Christian or otherwise, who can inform me of what was in the Mother of God's letter?

When there was so much publicity given to the Third Prophecy before the May 1960, why the secrecy after the letter opening?

January 11, 2007
7:59 pm
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This web site contains the full story:

http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk...../ch2-3.htm

January 11, 2007
8:18 pm
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Tez,
I had not heard of this, but am printing out the article to read.

January 12, 2007
9:06 pm
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On my way.

I'm not surprised that you haven't heard of this letter. The Vatican's depth of silence after May 1960 on this matter is only matched by the magnitude of its promotion of the miracles of Fatima and the projected opening of the letter containing the Third Prophecy of the Blessed Virgin Mary prior to May 1960. I remember the pre-1960 Fatima propaganda well. The silence after that date was positively deafening.

I'd love to know what the letter said. It was obviously considered by the Pope in 1960 and by every other Pope since to be too 'damaging' to Catholicism, and/or Christianity as a whole, to release.

I wish fearless Christians would rise up throughout the world and publicly demand the release of the contents of the letter. The 1st and 2nd Prophecies about the coming of WW1 and WW2 were released and crowed about publicly when they came true.

What about the third prophecy??? Did it come true? Was it about the martyrdom of the humble, honest and courageous Pope John the 23rd in his bed in the Vatican for trying to reformed a corrupt church?? Or was he silenced forever because he intended releasing the letter and a hell of a lot more about the papacy such as the dealings of the Vatican Bank? Was it about the extraordinary fiscal and other circumstances surrounding the supposed suicide of the civil head of that same bank? Why wasn't an autopsy held into this great man's death so soon into his sojourn as Pope? Why was he buried with such indecent haste?

Come on ex-Cardinal Ratzinger! Come clean! Do you fear the truth being made known just as you feared paedohile priests being exposed in your recent past? Is this hiding yet another cover up?

Remember Pope Benedict, the Whatever, "the truth will set you free". Some great guy, once important in the early days of your religion but now largely forgotten, apparently gave that great advice. I feel abused and conned by you and yours who went before you when as a child you and yours filled my head with crap.

I am well aware that you headed the 'Inquisition', albeit with a euphemized name change to hide from this organization's past, prior to your preordained election as Pope recently. This organization's purpose hasn't changed - only its methods that have been curtailed by the advances made by civil law, have.

Come on Pope Benedict the Whatever, come clean with a good public act of contrition and a long awaited revelation of the contents of the letter dictated by the mother of your God. That horny guy with the pitch fork might be waiting for you in your afterlife if you don't. Isn't that what you preached would await me if I didn't comply with the rules of your power game?

Written by a liberated, renegade Catholic who had what it took to throw off the shackles of your psychological brainwashing, control and oppression.

This vitriolic diatribe is not directed at the rank and file Catholic but to those at the helm of power in the Vatican.

I regret any offence taken or hurt sustained to genuine rank and file Catholics as a result of this post. I entreat you to open your inner eye of wisdom and to see what is in regard to your church.

January 12, 2007
10:16 pm
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They opened it Tez.

http://paranormal.about.com/li.....70300a.htm

I'd never heard of this. Been reading about it.

google Fantima prophecies and all kind of stuff comes up.

free

January 13, 2007
5:49 pm
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Hi Free.

Thanks for setting me straight about the opening of the Third Prophecy letter in 2000.

Thanks also for the URL pointing to the details.

I was not aware either that the third prophecy had been released or that it was not written down in the letter form until 1944 - Archbishop Bertone quote from this website: "The third part of the "secret" was written ... on January 3, 1944." I thought the three prophecies had been documented in 1917!

Where is the credibility in writing down prophecies AFTER the events prophecized 1 and 2 had already happened? Hmmm!! Now I see that Ratzinger(Pope Benedict the Whatever) is interpreting the III prophecy using a hammer, chisel and a ten ton press to make the third prophecy fit the Vatican party line. Hmmmm!

"According to Kathleen A. Keating, however, author of The Final Warning: Your Survival Guide to the New Millennium, "John XXIII fainted when he read the third secret because it specifically states, according to eyewitnesses, that the Pope would betray the flock and turn his sheep over to the slaughter devised by Lucifer himself. John XXIII fainted because he thought he would be the Pope who would open the door to Satan and that he would be the long awaited antipope.""

I saw nothing in the prophecy on the site that indicated that "the Pope would betray the flock and turn his sheep over to the slaughter devised by Lucifer himself".

Was the third prophecy edited by Ratzinger??? Is that why it was released by Ratzinger, the Inquisition's head man in 2000 at the time of the release?

Or is Kathleen A. Keating making up a story? She would be very vulnerable unless she has pretty hard evidence to substantiate what she wrote.

The plot thickens!!! Some 'arse covering' going on somewhere, methinks.

January 13, 2007
8:46 pm
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They don't even know prophecy one and two happened though Tez. It's a matter of interpretation, as always, it seems. There's never anything concrete in so called "prophecies."

Have you noticed that?

I mean, had they said that there would be a World War and Germany would begin it under the rule of a ruthless dictator who oreders the slaughter of 6 million Jews, disabled, homeless, and Japan would bomb a Naval base in Pearl Harbor, etc,, that would be one thing.

But "A war is gonna happen....."

duh.

this is mankind.

free

January 14, 2007
5:34 pm
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Free.

How right you are!

The gullible choose to believe what makes them feel good rather than what fits into the huge jigsaw of life. If they are emotionally or cognitively challenged to make the pieces of life's experiences fit the 'big jigsaw', they do so with a large hammer and sharp emotional chisel.

For me the sad thing is that my otherwise intelligent dear old dad, now deceased, was strangely beguiled by the Vatican propaganda to the extent of unquestioningly believing that the sun 'danced around the sky' during one of the visions at Fatima. This 'sun dance' was testified to by hundreds of bedazzled and beguiled onlookers. Was it mass hypnosis at work?

When presented with the argument that astronomers throughout the world in 1917 might just have noticed the humungous gravitational effects that eventuality would have had on our solar system ,not to mention the subsequent shifts in the orbits of the planets, including earth's own, my dear old dad became characteristicly angry and metaphorically swept my whole argument away under the Vatican's carpet with all the other embarrassing issues challenging their 'faith'.

Purveyors of absolute bulls..t, especially the powerful, need to be placed under the spotlight of reason, IMHO.

This is not to imply that I think that the domain of reason is the limit of what humanity can know. There are other ways of knowing that transcend the domain of the intellect. However when the intellect is subjected to fantasies purporting to be actual facts that are totally irrational, then the intellect needs to rule the day.

The alternative is that we unquestioningly follow every crackpot messiah into another Jonestown style massacre or far worse into yet another Christian or Muslim jihad, as if there were a difference.

January 15, 2007
11:32 am
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Tez,
I haven't heard of it, because I don't follow Catholicism. I have heard of Fatima, but to me Mary is just Jesus's mother and a woman I admire. Will check out free's reference as well.

January 15, 2007
1:03 pm
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Wouldn't it be awesome if we could have a DNA test to see if Joseph was Jesus' biological father?

free

January 15, 2007
1:47 pm
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Do you really need that kind of proof, or are you just curious?

January 15, 2007
3:46 pm
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I'd have to say curious, but much more curious to see how the Christian world would respond.

free

January 15, 2007
3:51 pm
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How could they perform DNA? Didn't the bible say Jesus ascended into heaven? I don't know if the bible tells if any remains were left.But if there were, where were they buried?

January 15, 2007
5:25 pm
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Oh that's right I forgot about that part bevdee.

I dunno- if somehow we could find something to do with Jesus and Joseph (do we know where he is buried?) it would be really cool.

free

January 15, 2007
5:57 pm
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Hey Free

Where who is buried? If we are to believe the story, Jesus' body ascended to heaven.

Are you doubting the immaculate conception story?

January 15, 2007
6:03 pm
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free
15-Jan-07

"Wouldn't it be awesome if we could have a DNA test to see if Joseph was Jesus' biological father?"

The understanding, given to me via a metaphoric mental enema very against my will, was both that Joseph was NOT Jesus's father and that Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus's birth. It was the birthing that broke her 'hymen', as it were. God, I was given to understand, fertilized the egg in Mary's ovaries. That's why she is called the Blessed Virgin.

Now did Joseph indulge his sexual desires by having intercourse with Mary after the birth of Jesus? Well Jesus is supposed to have siblings, James being just one of them, so I guess he did. I thought that James was Jesus's elder brother. Now that does put a spanner in the works of the Christian dogma machine - if true of course.

As for DNA testing, I saw an excellent documentary that investigated a church in India that has a tomb claiming to contain Jesus's remains. The church records show that Christ died at aged 80, after surviving his relatively short time on the cross, recuperating and scarping off to India with Thomas to form his church there. The wounds inflicted on the cross were in evidence all his life apparently. Exhuming the remains to establish this and other things was proposed but the Indian Government refused permission because it was a no win time bomb waiting to explode whichever way the findings went. It would destroy either western Christian beliefs or the Indian Christian beliefs held by that sect owning the nearly 2000 year old Indian church in which Christ's remains are said to reside. Under the Christian hierarchs' carpet, as quickly and discretely as possible, this documentary evidence goes with the rest of the threatening stuff.

As BevDee rightly points out, the Roman derived Christian church, which to my knowledge means all Christian churches in the US except the Coptic Christians, believe that Jesus ascended, body and all, into the heaven located up there somewhere in the sky in defiance of all the physical laws of gravity and probably others as well.

Mary Jesus's mom, also ascended into heaven in a similar fashion. There is a Catholic Feast day called Ascension Thursday and the Feast of the Assumption(15th Aug) that celebrate these articles of Catholic faith.
As for the rest of you Christians its Purgatory for you for a while to purge your heretical views out of your system before the Day of the Last Judgment wherein your bodies will be raised out of your grave and brought back to life. 'Stiff sh...t' for those of you who elect to be cremated like my dear old dad was. You won't have a body at all so its 'good night nurse' for you. Even King Charles issued orders that his head be sewn back on after his execution by beheading, so that he would have his head firmly attached on that great day. I'm SERIOUS!

Now if today's Christians laugh at such puerile dogma and doctrine held to be indisputable truth at that time, then consider the future generations of 'enlightened' Christians laughing at the present day Christian beliefs held to be facts. If Christian 'truths' are so variable over time can they be considered to be truths at all? IMHO, they are dubious beliefs at best and downright perfidious lies at worst depending upon the nature of the psyche and the motivations of the individuals expressing them.

January 15, 2007
6:33 pm
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Is it not widely known by Christians that their religion is just another sect of Judaism, albeit one that didn't die out and expanded under the power of the Roman army?

Where do Christians think the origin of the horrific doctrine of the 'Sacrificial Lamb of God' being butchered horribly on a Roman cross in reparation for the sins of God's human character design failures comes from?

Judaism practiced animal sacrifices to appease Jehovah, Yahweh, and the bible bears testimony to this barbaric practice. The old testament even defines what animals have to be sacrificed for what! Even human sacrifice was contemplated, at least in the case of Abraham's son who was saved in the last instance by an appeased God who intervened at the last moment.

I don't see much of this blood thirsty, bargaining, merchant God bothering today in Christian churches. Why? Are modern day Christians too squeamish?

Are only select parts of the bible applicable nowadays? If so who gets to select which parts and on what basis?

Will Christian ecumenism one day extend to the Judeo-Christian sects being eventually returned to their original womb of Judaism? Only a little minor belief bending is needed, isn't it? 🙂

January 15, 2007
6:44 pm
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"Where do Christians think the origin of the horrific doctrine of the 'Sacrificial Lamb of God' being butchered horribly on a Roman cross in reparation for the sins of God's human character design failures comes from?"

There is a school of thought that much of Christianity's ...truth was borrowed from the Zoroastroan god Mithras- some of the "plagiarism
includes the virgin birth, the birthday, the bloody sacrificial death, and his miraculous return from the dead.

This is one site I have visited re: the plagiarisedmythology

http://altreligion.about.com/l.....52902a.htm

Interesting stuff - Ishtar - Easter.

On which part of the bible is one to base his faith?

January 15, 2007
10:45 pm
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BevDee.

Thanks for your informative post.

I think the Zoroastrian religion predates even Judaism. If this is the case then Judaism's alleged plagiarisms may well have been inherited by Christianity indirectly through Judaism from Zoroastrianism rather than by a direct route.

You thoughtfully asked:

"On which part of the bible is one to base his faith?"

The part that backs up what one wants to believe, perhaps.

What does one want to believe? That which feels right and good to the believer.

What governs what makes one 'feel good' and what feels right? Past conditioning(karma).

Does this make it true because it feels right or good? NO

Does this make it false? NO

Then what does it make it?

Feelings may or may not be indicators of what is factual and true.

Even truth has at least two qualifications; namely absolute and relative(conventional) truths. The Buddha claims the middle view combining a synthesis of both relative and absolute truth, is the third and ultimate truth.

Absolute truth is that view of reality rendered 'pure' by the absolute redundancy of all prior mental conditioning and stored memories of all kinds.

Relative truth is that view of reality filtered and interpreted through the distorting influences of all prior conditioning in reference to all past memories of all kinds. That is a view of reality which is held in common with the vast majority of similarly preconditioned minds in any particular culture or mindset.

When the earth was believed to be flat that belief was perceived as a relative truth of that time. Relative truths are useful in dealing with others and our environment within the limitations of our space and time.

However when the technology of ship building expanded that space in that time to the point wherein the telescope was invented and long voyaging ships never fell off the rim of the disc that was accepted as the shape of the earth, deeper questions were asked that rendered that flat earth truth as being false.

Now with the scientific and technological advances we are again questioning the tribal religious beliefs of a far more primitive time. That such puerile beliefs are still firmly clung to is an indictment on the fear levels and the lack of courage of religious leaders and their scribes.

Relative truth is evolving and changing as it has always done.

Absolute truth??????

That is a way of 'seeing' reality, as opposed to thinking about or pre-conditionally visualizing it.

Absolute reality, since it is uninfluenced by prior conditioning of any kind, cannot be expressed in words.

What can be expressed in words are conventional, relative truths that can lead to a state of mind wherein the veil of preconditioning is dropped and the 'third eye of wisdom' does the 'seeing' of what is a Buddha's truth; that is the ultimate truth of Suchness. The Buddha, Sakyamuni(the wise man of the sakya tribe) claimed that either extreme of absolute and relative truth is not the ultimate truth which is a synthesis of the two.

Many think that such a state of mind cannot exist or that if it did we would loose all conscious or unconscious awareness completely; that is, fall off the ends of the earth. Such thinking is based upon reasoning associated with relative truth and as such is open to change with further experiences.

The Buddha, though he was unable to express absolute reality in words, was one person amongst many who have 'seen' with the 'third eye of wisdom' absolute truth as well as relative truth. This can be seen in his writings expressing the relative truths in words about how to see a synthesis of absolute and relative truth and therein freeing ourselves from all suffering.

How do we know this is true even relatively? We don't. Utilizing the Buddha's own strong admonitions, we must 'try before we buy' if we want to find out.

IMHO, we would be foolish to buy the biblical 'pig' in a 'poke' or any other, Buddhism included, for that matter.

January 17, 2007
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Tez

"How do we know this is true even relatively? We don't. Utilizing the Buddha's own strong admonitions, we must 'try before we buy' if we want to find out.

IMHO, we would be foolish to buy the biblical 'pig' in a 'poke' or any other, Buddhism included, for that matter. "

Hmm- thoughtful investigations into many godman religions don't bear up under the scrutiny, do they?

January 18, 2007
5:32 pm
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Hmm- thoughtful investigations into many godman religions don't bear up under the scrutiny, do they?

Nuh! If the congruency between the definition of the fundamental prerequisites for being a God and what is written in the various scriptures about the character of that same God, is tested in the light of reason, not blind faith, it fails the test miserably.

I have to concede that I have only owned copies of and seriously read the Bible, the Qu'ran(Koran), the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Morman and the Buddhist Sutras. I haven't read the Granth, the Rig Vedas, the Upanishads, or the Tao or the I Ching, though I own a copy I think somewhere in my piles of books.

The conclusions that I draw are that either God is not as the believers claim him/her/it to be or their scriptures are false or there is nothing but us chickens in the coop.

I opt for the last conclusion. In fact by my definition of the Eternal Essence, I doubt that theists would regard my concept of the Eternal Essence of All Being as being a God at all. Thus I guess that I would be regarded by theists as an atheist. I do not see myself as an atheist but more as a very skeptical agnostic knocking at the door of atheism.

January 18, 2007
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Tez

If we go by strict definition, I think I would fall under the category of agnostic because I won't commit to either. But here lately, I think I have been leaning toward atheist.

I have read the bible, several Protestant versions and a couple of Catholic versions. (The reason I did that was to see if reading all the different translations made anything gel for me) the "lost books",( I think of those as the "chunked out" books) some of the apocrypha,the book of mormon and a tiny bit of the koran.

You know, I try really hard to respect the individual's right to their belief. Respecting the right doesn't mean I have to respect or accept the belief. Does it?

January 18, 2007
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No Bev, it certainly doesnt mean you have to accept the belief.

This is a really interesting thread, for this agnostic former catholic convent educated girl.

Tez I too wondered about that 3rd prophesy. Now I know

January 19, 2007
12:15 am
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Sleepless,

Good to see you! What is the 3rd prophecy?

January 19, 2007
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Hey Bev, always good to see you too.

Well as I understand it it referred to the killing or attempted killing of the pope, but a lot of people dont buy that because it was kept secret for 40 years after it should have been released by the vatican. Free posted a good web link if you want to read more
http://paranormal.about.com/li.....70300a.htm

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