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the world is flat & dinosaurs & humans lived at the same time
April 29, 2009
5:06 pm
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bereft
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do you suppose a truth is a truth whether you want to believe it or not?

do you suppose God does exist whether you want to acknowledge it or not, and He does establish a moral law by which He judges every human being in the world, whether you want to acknowledge that law or not?

it was postulated here that religious belief are based on nothing more than personal opionion. when the truth of Scripture is challenged by skeptics, archaeology can be used to demonstrate that at least the people, places, and events of the Bible are real, whether we wanted to acknowledge it or not.

when Jesus claimed to be God, do you suppose He was lying, a lunatic, or was He in truth God? do you suppose Jesus is God whether you want to acknowledge Him or not?

grace and peace

April 29, 2009
5:11 pm
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Shaney
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"I wouldn't presume to judge or condemn the believers in God the way many of them choose to judge and condemn others."

I practice Christianity and feel the same way about those who choose not to believe. It has never mattered to me one way or the other what people believe - to each his own. Being someone who believes in God, I'd hate to be lumped in with those who judge and condemn in a way that seems superior or overly righteous. I do hate that. I'm not a billboard sign for Christianity or for what I believe in, but if someone asks me, I tell them - and what they do with that info is up to them.

As for the bible - who knows what part is fact and which part if fiction? I certainly don't and have always had questions as to whether parts of the bible should be taken literally or contextually. I suppose everyone has their own take according to how it fits, if it in fact does, into their own personal lives. It just seems that there are just as many Christians who beat non believers over the head with their judgments, as there are non-believers who are vicious in their attempts at tearing down what Christians believe in. That's what bothers me - the sarcastic and venomous remarks between two opposing groups who will more than likely NEVER come to a conclusion, or find common ground. It just becomes a google war. lol

April 30, 2009
8:30 am
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lollipop3
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Shaney,

"It just becomes a google war."

As ususal, my little carrot, you had me rolling with that one.

And it's so true. Which is exactly why I refuse to get into these debates.

However, regardless of our differing beliefs, I respect you and I love you my dear friend.

Terri and Bereft,

I don't believe in the supernatural. I'm more of an emperical truth kind of a gal.

And as for blind faith..... I have a lot of trust issues so that doesn't generally work for me either.

Anyway peeps....carry on .....

April 30, 2009
1:31 pm
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glittered when he walked
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bereft,

While some certain aspects of biblical people and events can be supported by archeaological evidence it does not follow for me that the bible is infallible especially so when we are talking of things like divinity and what occurs after death.

One might look upon the stories of Noah, Gilgamesh, and Atra-Hasis as an attempt by early civilization to explain a great flood and if we found eveidence of a flood in the middle east that does not prove that "God exists" anymore than it proves that early man used his religions/beliefs of the time in an attempt to explain a natural disaster.

Put another way..Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and L. Ron Hubbard were real guys too. Should we acknowledge their versions of divinity/religion as truth as well ?

Few are the people who doubt the divinity and/or existence of Jesus/God who simply refuse to acknowledge him. That would be akin to not believing in something which you DO believe exists. That's a logical fallacy..akin to saying "there is a shiny coin in my pocket, but it doesn't exist." Unless perhaps you are saying that people who don't believe in God instead worship a devil of some sort.

Sure, it's entirely possible that your belief system may indeed be 100% accurate. It's also entirely possible that there is no God..the point is...we can neither prove nor disprove either one. This is what is at the core of my (and some others I would wager) agnosticism/belief/unbelief system

April 30, 2009
4:20 pm
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bereft
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“Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?" Job 11:7-8 love that old king james.

so i've heard it said that some men refuse to believe the miracle that God insured for us an infallible Bible, but are ready to believe the even greater miracle that God enables us to see the infallible Word of God in the fallible word of man. i thought that was an interesting point.

yes, i agree with you. apart from the archeological evidence, the miracles described, as well as the spiritual message, must be accepted on faith, which is the basis of our relationship with God.

speaking of an infallible Bible, did you know Jesus' view of Scripture was that it was the Word of God, that it was a true reflection of a true God, of a God who could not lie but could only speak the truth? He not only believed in the fulfillment of every word of the Old Testament, but corroborated it's great truths as well. He confirmed the creation of Adam and Eve. He confirmed that it was a real creation and they were real persons. Jesus also said repeatedly that the problems that people were having in not knowing God was because they didn’t know the Scripture. “Search the Scripture, they are they that speak of Me.” He repeated again and again and again, “Has not Scripture said?”

the New Testament speaks of Noah, by the way, and the global flood. it seems to me if the flood was local, as you seem to suggest, why did Noah have to build an Ark? how could the waters rise to 15 cubits above the mountains since water always seeks it's lowest point (Genesis 7:20)?

only willful ignorance or intellectual dishonesty can account for the claim that God does not exist. the difficulty isn't with God's revelation but with man. most people would rather believe God does not exist and will go out of their way to believe it in order to convince themselves they won't be held accountable for their lives.

what i'm saying whether it be God or the devil, whether we agree or not, we all serve somebody. i'm equally certain that with some agnostics and unbelievers the problem is not their minds but their hearts. they love their sins and habits of life which the Bible condemns, and are determined not to give them up.

"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." John 3:19-20

grace and peace

April 30, 2009
11:47 pm
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marypoppins
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"i'm equally certain that with some agnostics and unbelievers the problem is not their minds but their hearts. they love their sins and habits of life which the Bible condemns, and are determined not to give them up."

Just let this thread die already people!

Bereft and TB will continue to spew their sarcasm and judgement, directly or indirectly.

I appreciate Ma, Bitsy, OMW, and Shaney for sharing their beliefs and showing how their faith helps them to be more loving. I've also enjoyed reading another thread on this side, a thread that Soofoo began, which shows a broader range of Christian beliefs.

Thanks also to Craigco, MsG, Lolli, and Glittered for their posts. It's always good to know that one is not alone.

There will be those Christians, I suppose, who judge others, beat them over the head with scripture quotes and other propaganda, condemn non-believers to hell, tell them they don't believe because they love sin too much, and tell them they can't understand the Bible because they don't believe. None of those actions convey any kind of spiritual enlightenment to me. Those people give Christianity a bad name, in my opinion.

I began this thread having been annoyed at Bereft for telling me I was going to burn in hell. It was a mistake to start the thread in the way that I did, though. Not sure what I thought I'd accomplish. Guess I just wanted to vent. In the end, though, I learned somethings and was reminded that there are certainly some pretty amazing people here at AAC.

Mary

April 30, 2009
11:49 pm
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marypoppins
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I learned some things...

May 1, 2009
4:21 am
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glittered when he walked
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There is no "problem" with agnostics/agnosticism...if the very fact that agnostics exist is an affront to another's faith, that's decidedly not the problem of the agnostic.

That would be like me saying "the problem with Christians is that they believe in God." That's just absurd. Another's faith has no bearing on mine or the lack thereof.

In the end, my confession is this..I do believe in a creator...I just don't believe that the contrived rules and stories written by man are the word of God and i have no certainty of immortality. I don't believe homosexuality or masturbation or impure thoughts are "sins"...the only transgressions of note that I see are those committed against our fellow man. The frightening thought for me is this..if there is a nuclear death of life on earth, I'm wagering that it will have begun over one faith warring with another. That they each/all will eschew love compassion and reason and choose instead righteous indignation and obliterate the planet with the comfy idea that "we'll be rewarded in heaven because we killed all of those opposed to our God..the rest are just collateral damage."

Love and Reason - Amen.

May 1, 2009
5:11 am
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CraigCo
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Amen 🙂

May 3, 2009
8:25 am
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MsGuided
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Eh G_mun!

I concur.

May 3, 2009
11:33 am
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bereft
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in their spiritual blindness, intellectual darkness, and moral depravity, men are by nature inclined to reject the Holy Creator for the unholy creature. because something even in their fallenness demands a god, but one they like better then the true God, one who accepts their own personal sins and rules they can obey, they devise deities of their own making. how convenient.

voltaire was correct in observing, "God made man in Hiw own image, and man returned the favor."

idolatry begins in the mind when we pervert or exchange the idea of God for something other than what He really is. it is not incidental that the Ten Commandments begin with the admonition: "You shall have no other gods before Me."

my friends, the power of human threats seems rather puny in comparison to the power of God's promise. "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" Matt. 10:28.

grace and peace

May 3, 2009
2:52 pm
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marypoppins
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"Bereft and TB will continue to spew their sarcasm and judgement, directly or indirectly."

May 3, 2009
7:48 pm
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Terriberry
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Mary Poppins,

You may contuine to repeat the same insults and phrases over and over again. You may contuine to pursure believers with distain, because your reminded of the choice you choose to ingore. Be that as it may.

I will stand for the truths of the bible. I will not deny Jesus as Lord and Savior. I will not give up, or grow weary, or be ashamed.

I will boast about the Lord my God the one who saved me. Jesus Christ, saved my soul from enternal damnation. He changed my life.
He can do the same for you.

It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of GOD, not by works so that no one can boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

God offers you the same gift, it's up to you to accept it or not.

May 3, 2009
8:19 pm
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SpecialK
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Terriberry,

Can't you SEE from reading all these threads that no one is disdainful of someone who chooses Christ as his/her savior? The disdain that comes out is for when you, or any other person, whether Christian/Jewish/Muslim/atheist or WHATEVER, starts telling other people who do NOT believe the same thing that they are doomed, going to hell, deviant.

I know I was a bitch to you on that gay thread, and though I try not to be that way in life either online or off, it is very hard to sit back and listen to someone tell somebody else that they're BAD.

Can't you just live and let live? I WANT you to experience a higher power in a way that is fulfilling to you. I believe EVERYONE deserves that. Can't you just let everyone else live the way they wanna live and be HAPPY?

May 3, 2009
9:54 pm
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marypoppins
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"Bereft and TB will continue to spew their sarcasm and judgement, directly or indirectly."

May 3, 2009
9:58 pm
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marypoppins
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"I appreciate Ma, Bitsy, OMW, and Shaney for sharing their beliefs and showing how their faith helps them to be more loving. I've also enjoyed reading another thread on this side, a thread that Soofoo began, which shows a broader range of Christian beliefs.

Thanks also to Craigco, MsG, Lolli, and Glittered for their posts. It's always good to know that one is not alone.

There will be those Christians, I suppose, who judge others, beat them over the head with scripture quotes and other propaganda, condemn non-believers to hell, tell them they don't believe because they love sin too much, and tell them they can't understand the Bible because they don't believe. None of those actions convey any kind of spiritual enlightenment to me. Those people give Christianity a bad name, in my opinion."

And thanks to you, too, SpecialK.

Mary

May 4, 2009
2:51 pm
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bereft
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listen, my friends, if you don't understand this yet, you'll never understand it. Jesus always confronted somebody at the point of their sin and He did it face to face with them. He never backed off and went into a dialogue about their good qualities or how He enjoyed their broader range of Christian beliefs.

whenever there was a flagrant violation of God's truth, Jesus went straight at it, not indirectly but right straight at it directly and confronted it. in Mark 10:17 – 22, the Lord used the law to expose the rich man as idolater, in John 5:45 – 47, Jesus confronts the Jews with the accusation of the Law of Moses. in John 4:4 – 26 the Lord seeks out the woman at the well and uses the law to gently confront her with her sin – violating the 7th commandment.

now you say, "well, why would Jesus do this? i mean, it just seems to irritate them every time He does it. why does He always confront them and just smash right into them headlong? i mean, can't He just kind of put His arm around and say--hey, i really like you a lot, i'm just going to live and let live.

Jesus did it because He cared about them. if we care about the lost, we will not hesitate to speak to them about sin, righteousness, and judgment … the way Jesus did. if we're ever going to communicate truth with somebody we've got to hit them at the point of their error and make them realize it.

there will be those unbelievers, i suppose, who will judge and condemn Christians here because we follow, by example, our Lord and Savior. when we confront a sinful world that loves darkness rather than light, it is going to react. those who love Christ love Christians; those who hate Him hate those who follow Him.

if Christ hadn't come, folks here could have continued to gloss over the reality of their sin, allow people to do a great job of salving their consciences and ignoring the truth. they would blissfully allow everyone to march towards hell. none of those actions convey any kind of love to me. how does it seem to you?

Christ ripped off their blinders and forced people to see themselves as they truly were. they became aware of their sin and many hated Him for it.

there will those who continue to spew their hate upon us for following Him. thank you for bestowing that honor upon us.

grace and peace

May 4, 2009
3:05 pm
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Mary, God loves you and so do I;)

Bitsy

May 4, 2009
3:25 pm
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Shaney
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Good God. I'm a Christian, and a pretty involved one at that - but our pastor or church has NEVER pushed us to "confront" or "force" our beliefs on anyone, EVER. I remain open to opportunities when it comes to offering what I believe (and that's if, and only IF someone approaches me) - but I never seek out the "lost" (oh brother) and cram my judgment or my beliefs down their necks in order to SAVE them from the depths of hell. That's just downright fanatical if you ask me. If someone had come at me, as you describe bereft, before I decided to become a Christian - I would have run for the hills screaming. Although some of the things you post are thought provoking, I see much of what you say as rude and judgmental.

Run, MaryP, RRRUUUUUNNNNN!

May 4, 2009
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""And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" you mean guys like Jim Jones? or Jerry Falwell..those who pass judgment upon others by claiming to know the mind of God?

Hey Matt, How about we just do our best to minimize homicide in the first place thank you very much..you let me worry about my soul.

May 4, 2009
4:33 pm
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bereft
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"For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."—Luke 19:10.

"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. When he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!' I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents, than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance."

Christ came into the world, loved a lost world and sought to win it to Himself for the Father's glory. we are sent into the world to love the lost world, to seek to win the lost world for the glory of God the Father.

our mission is the same mission Christ had, it's the same mission God the Father had...no different, identical. should a physician shun the sick? should a shepherd avoid the lost sheep?

grace and peace

May 4, 2009
4:36 pm
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goodness gracious as my grandmother used to say! :0)

I'm reading these threads and I want to share what came to mind. Is everyone familiar with the Bible story in the New Testament about Mary Magdalene and Jesus and the crowd of people who wanted to stone her because she was caught in the act of adultery? Jesus walked up to her and stood between her and the crowd of people who by their 'religious' laws, thought they were right to put her to death by stoning her, because she had sinned, been caught in the act of adultery. Jesus knelt down and drew a line in the sand, and said to the crowd "Let you who is without sin, cast the first stone." The crowd of people dropped their stones and walked away. They knew that they were just as guilty. Jesus sized up the situation, and spoke directly to the issue at hand for that particular occasion. Then, he was alone with Mary Mag. He looked at her and said to her, "Where are your accusers?" She looked around and realized they were gone. He said to her, "Neither do I condemn or accuse you. Go and sin no more."

The key element here, and whatever else anyone would like to gleem from this story, is that in spite of the fact that she was an 'adulterer', or a 'sinner', Jesus stepped up to the plate for her, protected her, and spoke directly to the crowd, and he obviously got His point across, but then that was who He was, He was always capable of getting His point across. But He also told her "Go and change your life and don't go back to the old ways," by saying to her, "Neither do I condemn or accuse you, go and sin no more". So Jesus accepted her for who she was, all of her mistakes, He met her at her point of need, she didn't have to clean up her act for Him to love her and accept her, but He did tell her, to not go back to her old ways.

Of all of the people that you know, Jesus is the same, yesterday and forever. I cannot prove His existence, I don't know that anyone can, because it is a personal relationship. People beleive what they want to believe. But I do believe enough that it puts me in a camp of faith, and faith is what it is all about. Once you decide to believe, God doesn't leave you there by yourself, and say, 'ok figure it out for yourself'. He begins to change you on the inside. And prayer...communication with God? I do have to say, that I have seen so many miracles from prayer, that it would take an 'act of God' to make a difference, and He has. Life is hard, but exciting. Not all of your problems go away, but they change. It truly is an awesome road to travel, and I write this stuff because I can't help it. But like Shaney and others, I don't go after people to talk to them about God, but if the opportunity presents itself, then I do. I thik as Jesus did, He took advantage of every opportunity to reveal who God was/is, but HE also met people at their point of need. He spoke to them personally. And those whom He knew would not listen, as the Pharisees who crucified Him, He didn't talk much at all, but loved them from a distance as HE forgave them.

alright, i'm done.

May 4, 2009
4:47 pm
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marypoppins
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thanks, Bitsy! love you, too

Good God is right, Shaney! Sheesh. The funny thing is, I think I've stated already on this thread that I think there may be a God. I talked to him quite a lot in Catholic school. He was who I appealed to for love when it wasn't coming from my crazy parents.

If Bereft or TB think they're bringing me closer to Jesus with their rants, they're mistaken. Both of them continue to prove the point of this thread again and again.

My issue is not with Christianity. There may indeed be a God, a Jesus, a heaven. It's comforting to think so. In my opinion, other possibilities may be true as well.

But berating, shaming, and excluding others is not cool. Religion is misused in many ways. It's power, politics, and big business. It also gives people a chance to come together and support one another in love. That part is not lost on me.

But, as Glittered wrote, there are those fanatics, who feel so strongly a need to control, that the end justifies the means. "Our way is the only way and the right way and we'll die to prove it" causes a lot of trouble.

Religion can also be an addiction. I have a sister who chose Jesus over therapy. This I've talked about before with Bev. Rather than deal with the pain and shame of our childhood wounds, she has slapped on the Jesus band-aid. Religious addiction is real. Google it. See it right here on this forum.

I've also stated before that my decision to keep my mind open about the wonders of our universe was made because of my travels and the people in my life.

Anyway, I still feel blessed. Blessed to have an education, blessed to have traveled, blessed with an intelligent, loving, and open-minded daughter, family, and friends. And, last but not least, I'm grateful for my AAC friends. For nearly two years now, I've found support, kindness, and interesting discussion here.

Peace and love.

All the Marys

May 4, 2009
5:20 pm
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I went to my "step" grandmother's funeral today. (she was the mother of my stepmother) She was 95 and loved God with all of her heart. As the Pastor was saying his closing words he said he would miss her kiss every Sunday.

My stepmother is the oldest of 3 girls. The youngest is Pentacostal and is the biggest BITCH I have ever been around. Last year she found fault that I had my father's funeral out of the church when his body wasn't even there. Before they closed the casket the funeral director gave each of the daughters a minute to tell their mother good bye. She leaned over the casket and said, I know I am your baby and your favorite. Good God! The woman is in her sixties! Isn't she a little old. Later as we were back at the house and she had left "never to return" sigh, once again Thank God...I made the comment that for someone with such an up close and personal relationship with God that she claims to have...she sure is miserable. That is what some of my fellow Christians are showing. You sure are miserable. Do you think anyone wants to be like you???? Show God's LOVE...They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love, by our love....

Bitsy

May 4, 2009
5:27 pm
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Something that I have noticed on these threads is that those who profess to be Christians, seem to be held by others to a higher standard. There isn't much that Christians get away with here, and that is also positive. If people who profess to be Christians are questioned about their faith or something they have stated, it is very important to have the right attitude and the right answer and show love. I for one appreciate being held to that standard.

MARYPOPPINS,

I have been meaning to ask you...when you sign your name at the end of your posts, "All the Marys", what do you mean?

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