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the world is flat & dinosaurs & humans lived at the same time
April 27, 2009
12:01 pm
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marypoppins
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there a Christian goes again with that SMUG, SELF- RIGHTOUS ATTITUDE

guess you're not going to give the source for your post

did you not understand the question?

it's bad form to pass off someone else's words as your own

again, "these comments" were written by whom?

and as far as BELIEVING goes, you don't really know - I believe many things may be true - I'm secure enough to say that I don't have all the answers

April 27, 2009
12:06 pm
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marypoppins
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without fail, some Christian always has to pull out the "you better watch out for the wrath of God" or "you're going to burn in Hell if you don't agree with me"

yeah, right

tolerant, loving, Christians

April 27, 2009
12:10 pm
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marypoppins
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whenever there's criticism, it's either "you're going to hell" or "poor us, we're just like Jesus, so misunderstood"

April 27, 2009
12:24 pm
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Terriberry
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LOL... your cracking me up this morning, Mary.

Your the one that sounds self righteous and smug. I given you my source, for my morals and values, the bible. What difference does it make where I copied any text from.
You would only, claim it to be invalid, just like the bible??

Besides, you didn't share were you get your wealth of wisdom from...? lol

April 27, 2009
12:33 pm
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Terriberry
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Hebrews 10:22 - “Let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith.”

April 27, 2009
12:37 pm
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It No Longer Matters
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I had sworn off participating in this thread, but have one last thing to say.

For about 5 years I have participated on a Christian website. There are some fundamentalist Christians there and there are some Lukewarm Christians there and there are some who are more like me.

There are some who are more conservative and some who are more liberal.

We have several gay men who participate and unfortunately no gay women. There are several atheists and a couple of agnostics. There is a moderator who monitors the site and keeps people from being overly rude to each other. NOT ONCE IN THE TIME I HAVE BEEN THERE HAS ANYONE CHANGED ANYONE ELSES OPINION.

You two aren't going to do it here either.

Mary, my God loves me and wants what is best for me. He loves you too.

Terriberry, I agree with you also. I beleive the Bible to be the Word of God as revealed to man.

Peace and love to both of you.

Bitsy

April 27, 2009
12:42 pm
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Terriberry
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Oh... I am secure enough to say, I dont have all the answers either.

It's just this book I'm reading, that keeps leading down this narrow path, of what is right and what is wrong.

April 27, 2009
12:47 pm
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Terriberry
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God, Bless you Bitsy... I'm not trying to change anybody. It is only GOD who can somebody's heart.
I am just sharing the gospel and letting my light as GOD tells us to do. I will no longer be ashamed to speak the truth that is in me.

Love and peace to you also Bitsy.

April 27, 2009
2:22 pm
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bereft
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i really appreciate what Mary said about evil. we all can appreciate her concern. nobody would argue that there is evil in the world. everybody admits that. not everybody admits that we are totally depraved and that we have original sin in us. not everybody admits that we are evil and wretched to the core. but everyone admits there is evil in the world to some degree.

i write blunt words sometimes, they are not my words, but true words nonetheless. Jesus said, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

you don't have to go out and kill somebody or do any of the evil things Mary mentioned to go to hell, because hell is not just for criminals, it is for everybody and anybody who refuses Christ. if you refuse Christ in this life, God isn't going to force you to dwell with Him forever in eternity. but the way of faith is open: you can believe. or you can decide not to believe...the choice is yours.

the most profound thing i can say to you about suffering and evil is that, in Jesus Christ, God entered into it and turned it for good. there is no greater sin than to hate and kill the Son of God. there was no greater suffering nor any greater innocence than the suffering and innocence of Christ. yet God was in it all. "It was the will of the Lord to crush him" (Isaiah 53:5). this is why Jesus came to die. God meant to show the world that there is no sin and no evil too great that God cannot bring from it everlasting righteousness and joy. the very suffering that we caused became the hope of our salvation. "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34)

grace and peace

April 27, 2009
3:20 pm
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bevdee
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Mary -

Compare -

http://www.gotquestions.org/to.....stian.html

"Question: "Should Christians be tolerant of other people's religious beliefs?"

Answer: In our age of “tolerance,” moral relativism is touted as the supreme virtue. Every philosophy, idea, and faith system has equal merit, says the relativist, and is worthy of equal respect. Those who favor one faith system over another or—even worse—claim a knowledge of absolute truth are considered narrow-minded, unenlightened, or even bigoted.

Of course, different religions make mutually exclusive claims, and the relativist is unable to logically reconcile outright contradictions. For example, the Bible makes the claim that “man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment” (Hebrews 9:27), while some Eastern religions teach reincarnation. So, do we die once, or many times? Both teachings cannot be true. The relativist essentially redefines truth in order to create a paradoxical world where multiple, contradictory “truths” can co-exist.

Jesus said, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). A Christian has accepted Truth, not just as a concept, but as a Person. This acknowledgment of Truth distances the Christian from the so-called “open-mindedness” of the day.

The Christian has publicly acknowledged that Jesus rose from the dead (Romans 10:9-10). If he truly believes in the Resurrection, how can he be “open-minded” concerning an unbeliever’s assertion that Jesus never rose again? For a Christian to deny the clear teaching of God’s Word would indeed be a betrayal of God.

Note that we have cited the fundamentals of the faith in our examples so far. Some things (such as the bodily resurrection of Christ) are non-negotiable. Other things may be open to debate, such as who wrote the book of Hebrews, or the nature of Paul’s “thorn in the flesh.” We should avoid becoming embroiled in disputations over secondary matters (2 Timothy 2:23; Titus 3:9).

Even when disputing/dialoguing over prominent doctrines, a Christian should exercise restraint and show respect. It is one thing to disagree with a position; it is quite another to disparage a person. We must hold fast to the Truth while showing compassion to those who question Truth. Like Jesus, we must be full of grace and truth both (John 1:14). Peter strikes a good balance between having the answer and having humility: “Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect” (1 Peter 3:15)."

April 27, 2009
3:35 pm
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Terriberry
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oh.. bevdee,

the truth is out... now what ?? (lol).

April 27, 2009
3:46 pm
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Terriberry
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oh yeah ... .I forgot, who cares ?

April 27, 2009
3:47 pm
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on my way
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Definition of 'Christian' is 'Christ in you'. It is what referred to believers after Pentecost. It isn't a name of a group of people, but has become so. If Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit is in someone, then he is/was called a 'Christian' because Christ lived/lives inside of that person. The term 'Christian' did not originate with Catholicism, as so many misinformed people believe.

The term itself has really gotten a bad rap over the years, because it began to refer to just anyone who said they believed in God, or people who took the insane liberty and did things in the "name of God" or in the "name of Christianity" which is a farce and has had far-reaching, negative repercussions. I do see how so-called Christians have gotten a bad name bestowed upon them in this respect. But there are genuine, Christians out there, who do not judge, and accept others for who they are, but it doesn't mean that they approve of how someone else believes. 'Acceptance' and 'Approval' are two very different concepts and I think people of religious faiths, and those who choose not to believe that Jesus Christ was who He said He was, confuse them consistently.

I am, as most of you know, a Christian. I don't say that because I think I am better than anyone else, because I don't, and most genuine Christians do not. But I profess to be a Christian because on Dec. 6, 1970, I asked Jesus Christ into my life and hence, He lives in me. Hence, the original statement in my post, "Christian" technically means, "Christ in you".

'Mucho love' to all of you here. 🙂

omw

April 27, 2009
5:00 pm
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marypoppins
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Thanks, Bevdee. Hope you're well. Miss you here.

TB,

In general, when we copy and paste something, we reference it. Otherwise, it's plagiarism.

All,

I suppose it's too much to ask of some people to acknowledge that there may indeed be more than one way, and that those other ways are not necessarily evil or immoral or sinful.

How can one possibly have a conversation with someone who claims, "Either you believe what I believe, or you're going to hell." "You're not worthy of heaven unless you believe what I believe." "See how I'm full of God's love?"

um, "No"

yuck

yuck

April 27, 2009
5:40 pm
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Terriberry
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Lol, again Mary I never claimed the comments I orgianally posted were my own. That would be plagiarism.
I just didnt reveal source in which I got them. Guilty as charged...

Ahh... ! Finally something we agree on. YES it is too, much for anyone who confesses Jesus Christ as there Lord and Savior, to agree,

"
I suppose it's too much to ask of some people to acknowledge that there may indeed be more than one way, and that those other ways are not necessarily evil or immoral or sinful " Source taken from Mary Poppins 4-27-09 on the thread ... the world is flat & dinosaurs & humans lived at the same time Thread.

TO DO SO IS TO DENY CHRIST. Is that what you are really asking people of faith to do ? Or are you simply confused...?

Also, since your postion is one that seems to becoming from a postion, is one Unversialism. I thought I would add this question answer, from.... the source I used earlier.

Interested in your response. To all of my questions. Dont for get to include your source you used.

-------------------------------------

Question: "Is there such a thing as absolute truth / universal truth?"

Answer: In order to understand whether there is absolute or universal truth, we have to begin by defining truth. Truth according to the dictionary is “conformity to fact or actuality; a statement proven to be or accepted as true; reality or actuality.” Some people would say that there is no true reality, only perceptions and opinions. On the other hand, others would argue that there must be some absolute reality or truth.

One view says that there are no absolutes that define reality. Those that hold this view believe everything is relative to something else, and thus there can be no actual reality. Because of that, there are ultimately no moral absolutes, no authority for deciding if an action is positive or negative, right or wrong. This view leads to “situational ethics,” where what is right or wrong is relative to the situation. There is no right or wrong and therefore whatever feels or seems right at the time and in that situation is right. Of course situational ethics leads to a subjective, “whatever feels good” mentality and lifestyle, which has a devastating effect on society and individuals. This is the postmodern society, which is a society that regards all values, beliefs, lifestyles, and truth claims as equally valid.

The other view holds that there are indeed absolute realities and standards that define what is true and what is not. Therefore, actions can be determined to be either right or wrong by how they measure up to those absolute standards. If there are no absolutes, no reality, chaos ensues. Take the law of gravity for instance. If it were not an absolute, we could not be certain we could stand or sit in one place until we decided to move. Or if 2 + 2 did not always equal four, the effects on civilization would be disastrous. Laws of science and physics would be irrelevant, and commerce would be impossible. What a mess that would be, but thankfully 2 + 2 does equal 4. There is absolute truth and it can be found and understood.

To make the statement that there is no absolute truth is illogical. Yet today, many people are embracing a cultural relativism that at its heart denies any type of absolute truth. A good question to ask people who say “there is no absolute truth” is: “Are you absolutely sure of that?” If they say yes, they have made an absolute statement that in itself infers absolutes. They are saying that the very fact there is no absolute truth is the one and only absolute truth.

Beside that of self contradiction, there are several logical problems one must overcome to accept or believe that there are no absolute or universal truths. The second problem is that all humans have limited knowledge and finite minds and, therefore, we cannot logically make absolute negative statements. A person cannot logically say “there is no God” (even though many do so), because in order to make such a statement, they would need to have absolute knowledge of the entire universe from beginning to end. Since that is impossible, the most they can rationally and logically say is “With the limited knowledge I have, I don’t believe that there is a God.”

The third problem with the denial of absolute truth / universal truth is that it fails to live up to what we know to be true in our own consciences, our own experiences, and what we see in the real world. If there is no such thing as absolute truth, then there is nothing ultimately right or wrong about anything. What might be “right” for you does not mean it is “right” for me. While on the surface this type of relativism seems to be appealing, if it is true then everybody sets his own rules to live by and does what he thinks is right. Inevitably, one person’s sense of right will soon clash with another’s. What happens if it is "right” for me to ignore traffic lights, even when they are red? I put the lives of others, not to mention my own, at risk. Or I might think it is right to steal from you and you might think it is not right. Clearly, our standards of right and wrong are in conflict. If there is no absolute truth, no standard of right and wrong that we are all accountable to, then we can never be sure of anything. People would be free to do whatever they want—murder, rape, stealing, lying, cheating, etc. and no one could say those things would be wrong. There could be no government, no laws, and no justice, because one could not even say that the majority of the people have the right to make and enforce standards upon the minority. A world without absolutes would be the most horrible world imaginable.

From a spiritual standpoint, this type of relativism results in religious confusion, because there can be no one true religion, no one way of having a right relationship with God. All religions would therefore be false because they all make absolute claims regarding the afterlife. It is not uncommon today for people to believe that two diametrically opposed religions could both be equally “true” even though they both claim to have the only way to heaven or teach two totally opposite “truths.” People who do not believe in absolute truth ignore these claims and embrace a more tolerant universalism that teaches that all religions are equal and all of them will lead to heaven. People who embrace this worldview will vehemently oppose evangelical Christians who believe the Bible when it says that Jesus is “the way, and the truth, and the life” and that He is the ultimate manifestation of truth and the only way one can get to heaven (John 14:6).

Tolerance has become the one cardinal virtue of the postmodern society, the one absolute, and therefore intolerance is the only evil. Any dogmatic belief—especially in absolute truth—is synonymous with intolerance, the ultimate sin. Those that deny absolute truth will often say that it is alright to believe what you want, as long as you don’t try to impose your beliefs on others. But this view itself is a belief about what is right and wrong, and those who hold this view most definitely do try to impose it on others and are therefore hypocritical. They set up a standard of behavior which they insist others follow—thereby violating the very thing they pretend to uphold. Those who hold such a belief simply do not want to be accountable for their actions. If there is absolute truth, then there are absolute standards of right and wrong, and we are accountable to those standards. This accountability is what people are really trying to reject in their rejection of absolute truth.

The denial of absolute truth / universal truth and the cultural relativism that comes from it are the logical result of a society that has embraced the theory of evolution as the explanation for life. If evolution is true, then life has no meaning, we have no purpose, and there cannot be any absolute right or wrong. Man is then free to live life as he pleases and is accountable to no one for his actions. And yet no matter how much sinful men want to deny the existence of God and of His absolute truth, they still will someday stand before Him in judgment. The Bible declares, “…what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools” (Romans 1:19-22).

Is there any evidence for the existence of absolute truth? Yes. First, there is the human conscience, that within us that tells us the world should be a “certain way,” that some things are “right” and some are “wrong.” Our conscience convinces us there is something wrong with suffering, starvation, rape, pain, and evil, and makes us aware that love, generosity, compassion, and peace are positive things for which we should strive. This is universally true in all cultures in all times. The Bible describes the role of the human conscience in Romans 2:14-16, “(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”

The second evidence for the existence of absolute truth is science. Science is simply the pursuit of knowledge, the study of what we know and the quest to know more. Therefore, all scientific study must by necessity be founded upon the belief that there are objective realities that exist in the world and that these realities can be discovered and proven. Without absolutes, what would there be to scientifically study? How could one know that the findings of science were real? In fact the very laws of science have to be founded on the existence of absolute truth.

The third evidence for the existence of absolute truth / universal truth is religion. All the religions of the world attempt to give meaning and definition to life. They are born out of mankind’s desire for something more than simple existence. Through religion, humans seek God, assurance and hope for the future, forgiveness of sins, peace in the midst of our struggles, and answers to our deepest questions. Religion is really evidence that mankind is more than just a highly evolved animal. It is evidence of a higher purpose, and of the existence of a personal and purposeful Creator who implanted into man the desire to know Him. And if there is indeed a Creator, then He becomes the standard for absolute truth, and it is His authority that establishes that truth.

Fortunately there is such a Creator and He has revealed not only Himself but also His truth to us through His very Word, the Bible. Knowing absolute truth / universal truth is only possible through a personal relationship with the One who claimed to be the Truth—Jesus Christ. Jesus claimed to be the only Way, the only Truth, the only Life and the only path to God (John 14:6). The fact that absolute truth does exist points us to the truth that there is a sovereign God who created the heavens and the earth and who has revealed Himself to us in order that we might know Him personally through His Son Jesus Christ.

April 27, 2009
5:49 pm
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bereft
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“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).

“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).

“God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life” (1 John 5:11-12).

throughout the Bible we find the same undeniable truth: there is no salvation except through the person of Jesus Christ. it is because man is what man is and God is what God is.

grace and peace

April 27, 2009
6:13 pm
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sorry, this is a bit off topic.... but Miss Bevdee! have you been officially un-banned? Or are you just being tolerated?

Had to ask!

April 27, 2009
6:21 pm
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marypoppins
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so sweet, so loving, so full of ...

Jesus Christ...

April 27, 2009
6:59 pm
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It No Longer Matters
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Mary, can I ask you to use a little less sarcasm. I don't think I have every used my religion to beat anyone over the head. Truly we have all sinned and come short of the glory of God. It is by grace that we are saved. I am no better or worse than anyone else and I don't set myself up to be.

I generally try to be quite tolerant.

Thanks;)

Bitsy

April 27, 2009
9:23 pm
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marypoppins
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less sarcasm than TB? less judgemental than Bereft, who continues to beat me over the head with Bible quotes and warnings of hell?

you're in a different place than they are, Bitsy - you and OMW and Ma Strong. I see how your faith helps you love and try to understand.

I cannot accept that the people I know, many from other countries, religions, cultures - very honest, moral, and loving people, cannot go to heaven, if there is one. If God is going to punish me for accepting good people into my heart, and opening my mind to the mysteries of life, than so be it.

Mary

April 28, 2009
1:15 am
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bereft
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Mary, it is so difficult to accept that friends and family, people we know and love, people who are loving, kind, honest, generous and decent people, people here on this board will go to hell because they believe they are good enough.

the problem is nobody is good enough. we all deserve hell because we all have sinned. do you think TB, Bitsy, and all the other Christians here are good enough to stand before a Holy God? no, no one is righteous enough. no, not one of us. we are all in the same boat.

would you respect a judge who looked the other way when the law has been broken? no, the person who breaks the law deserves punishment. even though the judge may be the law-breaker's father, it is the responsibility of the judge to pass sentence and see that justice is carried out, even unto death. there is no partiality where the law is concerned.

we all have broken God's law and deserve punishment, we have all earned our punishment because man is what he is, a sinner by nature.

the problem is there is nothing we can do to pay a Holy and Righteous God back for our sins because God is what God is. we are all condemned to hell before Him. the wages of our sin before a Holy and Righteous God is death, eternal separation from God.

all of the religions of this world throughout history, except Christianity, are based on the premise that man can earn favor with God, can achieve righteousness with God by being good enough.

this is my starting point. suppose God is a loving, gracious, merciful and forgiving God who is also Holy and Righteous, whose eyes cannot even look at sin, who made heaven and earth just for us, and we could care less who He really is. think about all of this and if you're willing, let's talk about His and our dilemma. no more Scripture. okay? i look forward to it.

grace and peace

April 28, 2009
5:45 am
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(Hail Mary)

I hear ya. Too many Christians that I've known throughout my life never fail to get backed into a corner & pull out the proverbial trump card & doom you to hell if you don't conform. It's ultimately a lame attempt to control through fear & intimidation. None of them can ever explain why there have been so many past religions with the same story as Christianity dating back to the Egyptian God, Horus. (Sun of God) Boy, ya wanna talk about plagiarism, huh!?
Oh wait, it all a coincidence. - lol!
Lamb of God, light of the world, 12 disciples, died, born again etc, etc, etc. Yea, it's all just more of the same ol story being gradually beaten to death over & over again.

The religious beliefs of those that you've been attempting to debate with are based on nothing more than personal opinion. Of course they have no proof nor ever will. If a person takes even a half assed look at history, there is one truth that becomes quite visible. Christianity's roots actually stem from nothing ore than the worship of the sun (son). I think you're just scaring some of these folks with what they may deem as blasphemous dialogue, and not unlike a frightened animal, they get extremely defensive. Logic & reason just doesn't ever seem to be part of a Christian's argument. Long winded scriptures references, finger pointing, opinions & judgement at best. Most of them have been conditioned that way & would argue that black is white if the "bible" proclaimed it to be so.

Ah well, live & let live, I suppose. There are always exceptions to the rule. e.g. My own mother is a Christian & a genuinely sweet & decent person of good will. She just doesn't know anything else & I don't choose to rock her religious boat. People are going to believe what they believe. It's good to see that more & more people are starting to discover all of the age old lies though. Christianity is definitely on the decline and for good reason. The more one has an open & honest look, the more obvious it becomes. Some people are able to open their minds to the myriad of other equally as plausible explanations of life & some - either can't or just plain won't.

See you in hell, I guess! 😉 lol
The book of (Craigco 11:verse3)

April 28, 2009
10:50 am
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No one plugs into Jesus Christ, unless they have a personal encounter with Him. Then, They KNOW.

All the "reasoning" and debating in the world will not take the place of actually feeling and experiencing Him for even a few seconds. That's what it took for me.

When I pray for people and gentle touch them on the shoulder or hold their hand, I have seen their countenances change when they felt Him touch them: amazing!! And wonderful to see.

So, I let HIM do the convincing. My part is this is simply to show up and be the "messenger" through whom they encounter Him.

- Ma Strong

April 28, 2009
12:24 pm
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Hi Mary,

It really doesn't matter what I think or other Christians think, what matters is what you think, what you read, what you hear, what you do.

And, it isn't that Christians say there is only one way and are not open to another way, it is what God says, what Jesus Christ says and taught/teaches. Personally, I believe that there is only one way, but those are my beliefs and as Jesus Christ, I will not shove them down your throat. All people from all ages of time only report and share what they believe in, and I admit it, I believe God's way in the Bible is the only way, because that is what He teaches. So it doesn't matter if you reject me, or anyone else here who believes the same, what matters is your life and what you choose to do with it, and that of course involves believing or not believing...your choice. Hopefully you do not see arrogance in this. You are just as verbal about what you believe to be true, so there really is no difference. When I talk about my beliefs, as other Christians (Christ in you) do here, I, they, are only the messenger. I didn't write it, or create it, but God says that his Word will last forever, and so far it has, and I suspect it always will. Eleven disciples were left after the Resurrection, and they were told to take the Word until all the world....eleven men. They did and that was over 2,000 years ago and it has withstood all criticism, etc. and it changes lives consistently, over and over...and THIS is what is difficult to ignore. The only lives it does not change are those who do not accept it.

The world is going to end one day, you are going to die one day. So am I. And I have seen people die in fear, die lost, and die blissfully happy. That is the state of which there soul passes...at death, it shows how we lived.

I hope that I do not come across as being judgemental, I try to love people and treat them as I would want to be treated. Knowing Jesus in a realtionship is a gift. If someone gives you a gift only you can decide if you want to accept it or not. But I am so certain of who Jesus Christ was and is, that I would wager my life, if HE did not live up to anyone's expectations after accepting Him.

You know Mary, I have been talking to Tez on these threads for a few years about God. I hope he comes back, but you remind me and you sound alot like Tez...not implying anything, but you do sound like him!! 🙂

April 28, 2009
12:25 pm
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MA Strong,
I just read your post, and funny, but I wrote my post after the fact. We both talked about being the 'messenger'....now that is the Holy Spirit!! 🙂

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