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zax here, I really need help, please.
October 23, 2006
8:58 pm
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cyndra820
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Zax,
Hi, I'm Cyndra.

I've read the post and have to agree that part of it is Sensei being jealous of your relationship and jumping at the chace be make crazy. If you've had problems with her in the past and he knows this I find his behavior unacceptable. He has no reason to be angry. He violated her trust in telling you things. You didn't do anything wrong.

Why do you feel bad for standing up for yourself? Don't you have a right to correct any misunderstandings? Do you need P to do it for you? You had every right to defend yourself. Please don't doubt that you did the right thing. You did nothing wrong.

It does seem P may be rallying the troops, but what is it he hopes to gain? I don't like that he seems to be manipulating your emotions. That bothers me. You don't have to clear anything with him when you are defending yourself, especially since he indicated he would have asked you not to say anything.

You did nothing wrong by standing up for yourself and putting you first.

Regards,
Cyndra

October 23, 2006
9:02 pm
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healintime
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Lovelies - I am in -absolutely- no position to tell anyone to walk away. By the time I did, it was more of a limp.

If we could say "no, I know how I feel and I know what's accaptable and if you don't like it, there's the door.." then we wouldn't be codependent.

Zax, i do know that had I been seeing the therapist I'd eventually found way back then - or had I had an email from Ma every now and again putting it simply for me - that I would have been in better shape.

I had no idea about emotional abuse, no idea about most of the concepts that we talk about on these board - and no reality check, ever. Just a man who was convincing me that he was the grownup and I was silly to mind things that were "no big deal."

I would have had a really hard time with people pointing out the obvious, I think. I was seesawing between wanting to think the best of him and beginning to realise that he was actively interested in hurting me. But it would have been good to have perspective from other women who had been in the same boat and come out the other side.

October 23, 2006
9:14 pm
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southgoingzax
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but I've read the books - he didn't do stuff like that, he wasn't like this, not really, there were moments, but he seemed to get the point and shape up, he didn't seem that bad. And I was irrational, myself, literally, due to the severe health problems I was experiencing, at the beginning. And I have had the boards, the therapist, etc. WHY CAN'T I ACCEPT THIS? It just seems so horrific, he didn't really do this on purpose, he can't really, have wanted me to be hurt, he doesn't want to control me, REALLY? REALLY?

I can't accept that, it's too awful to bear. What do I have in my life if the man I love is emotionally abusing me? Oh god, how did I sink so low?

October 23, 2006
9:19 pm
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southgoingzax
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I printed out this thread, to take to my counselor - I am seeing her tonight really late, though, and I am debating on what to do - I am still at work, it is 7:20 pm but I don't want to go home, I don't know what to do, if I start thinking too much I start sobbing and my appointment isn't until 8:45 pm. Should I go home? I guess I should go home. What do I do?

hi cyndra, thank you for your post. Sorry, I am in the worst shape of my life at the moment - I thought I knew what feeling bad was, but I was really wrong.

October 23, 2006
9:22 pm
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cyndra820
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Zax, stop letting anything related to him validate who you are.

If you are not comfortable with something he's doing, how he's behaving, anything LISTEN to that voice. It is trying to tell you something.

I'm famous for denying the truth. That's how I spent two years in a long-distance relationship with a man who has the emotional depth of a puddle. Yeah, he could pretend he was sensitive caring man, but when the s**t hit the fan the real him came out.

Don't use your being ill and a little crazy as an excuse. Are you saying because you were stressed out he had a right to behave the way he did or treat you in a less than honerable or respectful way?

I don't know much about you, but from what I've been reading you haven't done anything to justify his behavior towards you.

Regards,
Cyndra

October 23, 2006
9:24 pm
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healintime
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Zax - you haven't sunk so low - you're in the middle of a process.

Maybe ask to see P, tell him that you feel absolutely within yoru rights to stand up for yourself. Explain that what he said was bound to upset you. That the conversations on the weekend weren't helpful.

You've been back together a matter of weeks and there have been some really yucky interactions. You can't change the past - but you can decide to point out when he's overstepped - or hurt you - or seems to be trying to belittle you and practice your "that's not okay with me."

I have to run to school - will be back online later.

Hang tough - this is a storm in a teacup and you did nothing wrong. His crazy and her crazy are not your responsibility.

Hugs,

H.

October 23, 2006
9:31 pm
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southgoingzax
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But what about my crazy?

okay, healin. thank you for being here for me. I guess I will stay here until my appointment. I don't know if I should be driving.

October 23, 2006
9:35 pm
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cyndra820
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Zax,

What about your crazy? How do you feel you were crazy?

I agree with Healing, you should have a talk with P and tell him that you were withing your rights to defend yourself, and point out when he's hurt you.

You have every right to expect respect and honor from him. Don't settle for less.

Regards,
Cyndra

October 23, 2006
9:37 pm
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healintime
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Zax - you weren't feeling crazy until he mentioned this. You didn't get crazy on your own. Expecting for that comment not to make you crazy would be crazy. Putting a seed of doubt in your head about how you're seen/perceived at teh Dojo - that's Crazymaking. It makes you crazy.

Hang in there,

H x

October 23, 2006
9:41 pm
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southgoingzax
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cyndra,

because I WAS angry when I called sensei. I should have waited to cool down. I should have thought things through, and not thought just jumped in with both arms swinging. I should have had patience, and spoken to her in person, calmly, and not the way I did. And then, I wouldn't feel like P is right, that I acted without thinking, that I just reacted instead of thinking.

cyndra, I think I need to go home now, I guess I can't sit here for an hour - or I can, maybe I don't want to. I need to do something though, I feel paralyzed.

thank you for being here. You too, double, I'm sorry I am in such a state, I just never thought he was this way, I always believed he was good.

October 23, 2006
10:05 pm
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healintime
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Zax,

One final thought - I don't know that it's necessarily about being "good."

In the same way that we feel like we'll shrivel up and die if we let go (remember Ma's great post about feeling like our survival depends on hanging in there) I think that they feel like their survival depends on maintaining control. The more that contro is threatened - the more they'll do to reassert it. In exatly the same way that the more we fear losing them, the harder we hold on - even as behavior gets worse and things become more uncomfortable.

Maintaining control (at any cost) is as much of an objective for them as holding on to the relationship (at any cost) is to us. Because both sides feel like it's a battle for survival. And it is in a weird way - a battle for a sense of self - whether it's by being "bigger than" or "attached to" we each need those things in a fundamental way to feel like we exist. I think that P's universe was given a good shake when you started to stand up for yourself and he needs, on a basic, basic level, to feel like he can get that feeling of "bigger than" back again. Often it's when we shake that sense of control that we see behaviors that we could never have imagined coming out - the more threatened they feel, the worse it gets.

H x

October 23, 2006
10:10 pm
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elizabeth anne
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If it is making you so crazy... Confront him tell him how you feel... Maybe you will feel better... You are making it all about you, because he makes it all about you..

A conversation that took place 4 years ago... you are feeling guilt over something that to me should not break up a relationship... Is that all it takes for him to say see ya? Red flags.... There is so much more to a relationship than THAT... You seem to be walking on eggshells...

Manipulative to make you feel bad.... and he has made you feel bad...Stand your ground sweetie... Give yourself some credit... There is no way in hel* he should be giving up on you for what has transpired... You have explained and rightfully so... If he doesn/t get it... Take confidence in yourself... you explained yourself and he should understand... If that/s what it takes for him to end it, there has to be something else going on...

Tell him I am sorry, I have explained my situation... If you feel you need to leave because of it... so be it... Tough Love... Respect for yourself...

October 23, 2006
10:22 pm
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Healin wrote: "Maintaining control (at any cost) is as much of an objective for them as holding on to the relationship (at any cost) is to us. Because both sides feel like it's a battle for survival."

Wow, healing, that is one of the best and most succinct descriptions I have seen of the dynamics at play in a codep/controller relatioship.

I shouldn't be reading here let alone posting, because I am REALLY really supposed to be doing something else.... but just had to say thanks for that excellent description.

Hope to add more later....

kroika playing hooky

October 23, 2006
10:55 pm
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And Zax,

I hope your counsellor can help contain your anxiety and help you center down into feeling your own truth and strength.

hugs, kroika

October 23, 2006
11:16 pm
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doubleloss
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zax. how are you? how was the appt. w/ counselor? did it help.

oh my friend, you keep turning corners left right and center and that is enough to make anybody crazy. the pain is bad, i hope it doesn't get any worse. It did get worse for me. i don't think i'm even close to being out of the woods.

at the end of the day, i guess he's just as afraid as you are, just different ways of showing it and perhaps the source of fear too. reading all your pain is helping me understand more about my own, and about this whole concept of co-dependancy, i guess that if both parties hand on for fear of X - it can't be a loving healthy relationship, right? - so, how do you know that it is REAL love vs. need. did it startt as love and changed into something else, was it something else and then changed to love but kept some of the something else?

how are we really supposed to. and also, we can love someone, truly, but if that person doesn't love us back, then does it count? i guess it does right, love always count. but we can't make any body love us. we can't just as we can't make ourselves love someone we just don't.

it is all very confusing to me. but what it is clear is that P is really pulling the strings and pushing all your buttons. it makes me angry that he does that to you and i wish i could say something that would click w/ you and start to be able to let go.

i think i had a little moment like that on sunday when i was talking w/my friend and the topic of xbf quest of his family's mental health issues came up. so whether it's mental illness, evilness, just controlling/abusive behaviours....i can't do anything about it... and frankly, i don't want to either, however, that doesn't mean that i don't love him, i do and there's isn't much i can do about that.

if people at the dojo think that you are little "P", i wonder what other comments he might had made about you.

even just a little comment said w/just the right words at the right time can send a message that someone is "not right, or crazy, or whatever" the bad mouthing doesn't have to be loud and clear, it can be subtle and quiet, so that way, nobody can point a finger BUT the insidiuous comment is made. I wouldn't be surprised if P had made little comments like that, and from your postings he might just raise the ante now.

zax, don't beat yourself. really , you're not crazy and i know you are strong and smart and at your own time you'll make a decision.

i know the pain, it hurts so much, feel it, let it go, don't hang on to it. i'll come back later!

double (((((((zax)))))))

October 24, 2006
1:09 am
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southgoingzax
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hi. i'm going to apologize for the typing, it's late and i can't stop shaking. he didn't call me back, i called and sent two emails saying i was sorry and to please call me and he didn't.

my counselor told me i did the right thing, to stand up for myself, it was something said about me, so i had a right to clear it up. my momsaid to put myself in p's shoes - how would i feel if he took something sensei told me bout him and went back to her about it? well, i would be mad. i would be mad that he did that. so where does that leave me? i was wrong to do what i did. i should have thought things through, and then i would have realized that i can never win with sensei, so it doesn't matter what she thinks about me and it was just not worth the effort. i was wrong.

my counselor wants me to get a psych eval - she thinks i need drugs. i do. i just have no health insurance and no way to pay for it. my head hurts so badly. i am shaking and i don't know how i will function tomorrow.

October 24, 2006
2:48 am
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doubleloss
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zax.
maybe you need the drugs to help you get through this, I don't think there is anything "wrong" with you, but a broken heart and that no amount of drugs will cure that, we all know that in these boards. however, do whatever it's needed.

your mom is right -if it was a normal situation- but it isn't. from where i sit, it looks like this big game, and i see someone like you being played, and i can relate to it because i've been there and i wish i could just make it go away. however, even if you don't see it, you are getting stronger, and little by little you are coming out of your shell, and really, it takes guts to do that, and you are doing it. i'm cheering for you. talk all you need, say all you need to say to whoever you need to say it. If you feel you need to apologize to P, do it, nothing wrong with owining your mistakes, but leave it at that, with that I mean don't blame yourself for the WHOLE mess.

Take care my friend, i'll try to check some computer somewhere and say hello. mega hugs, double ((((((zax))))

i will be gone for a week

October 24, 2006
5:04 am
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Hi Zax,

Hope you got some good rest. Double's right "under normal circumstances.." But if the tables were indeed turned, would you break a confidence and tell P something hurtful that had been said about him? I doubt it. Doesn't sound like you. Even if you want to take responsibility for calling in the heat of the moment (which makes you pretty much human) you did so because your buttons had been pushed. P knows the history - not only did he break S's confidence - but he undermined yours. His responsibility too.

A wise woman once told me "Remember, not everything can be all your fault, all the time." Good advice.

Hugs Zax,

H.

October 24, 2006
8:18 am
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Hi Zax,

I am so sorry you're going thru this.
I've been following your threads for some time. Hope you don't mind if I throw my two-cents in.

I don't think the issue here is whether or not you did something "wrong" (which, you didn't). The issue is how something this small (in the bigger scope of things) is being blown up to this magnitude.

It has you sooo upset. Scared, trembling, frozen, shaken. At the same time, P is giving you the silent treatment- which in my eyes, is like a "punishment".

Zax- you ALWAYS have a right to speak up for yourself. We ALL do. If P is bent that you did it without conferring with him, thats OK. But in a HEALTHY relationship, you discuss it, you apologize (if you feel you need to), the other person accepts the apology, and you MOVE ON. That's the way it should work.

I am so concerned about you in that this man seems to have so much power over your emotions. I really wish you could get some good counseling.. and if you can't afford that (I can't either), then maybe get some good books to read re codependency. You need to bring your focus back to YOU.
You are a wonderful, caring person.. and you really need to take some time for yourself.

If it's any consolation, I've been where you are right now.. many times. That gut-wrenching, panic-stricken anxiety feeling that freezes you in your place.. you feel like you cannot MOVE. Your mind spins out of control and all you can think of is how you could have/should have done something different so they wouldn't be "mad". Its awful. And it's also awful that he knows your upset, and apologetic, yet still does not call.
That is manipulation, pure and simple.

This is not the end of the world Zax.. I know it feels that way, but it will pass. Take some deep breaths and try and relax.

Keep us posted..
(((Zax)))

October 24, 2006
9:40 am
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morning.

i should be at work or something. no, healin, you're wrong, i would have told him that, i think. i would have assumed he would think it was funny that people can't stop talking about us, that for four years we have been hot topic in the dojo and people still can't let it go. I would have told him. And i would have been pissed, too, if he took that back to sensei. it would make me feel really bad, like, angry, that he would violate my trust in something.

i'm not saying his reaction is fair, i'm not saying that the silent treatment isn't punishment, but i think i would be that mad too. the more i think about it the worse i feel. i am frozen and so sad and i don't know what to do - anything i can think of to fix it will just make matters worse.

i know that i have created all of this, and i feed it with my obsessing, my mind goes over and over and over the same stupid moments and i can't stop. i know i have created this problem and i have made p out to be some sort of demigod ruling over my life and i do feel like i will DIE if this ends, i will die, i can't, i don't, know what to do, i did this, and i AM hanging on for dear life, and everything i do will just make it worse but i can't stop i wont survive without him and i need someone else to come take over, i can't do this anymore, i am a total disaster. someone else take over

October 24, 2006
10:03 am
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southgoingzax
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8:00 am.

I guess I'd better go to work. Just sent another email to P - that's it for me - oh fuck why did I do this? I am so sorry. i am so sorry.

i don't even know what to say. you are all right, of course, but i was also wrong and it doesn't matter. all that matters is that my hopes are gone, everything that might have been, unless he forgives me it's all gone. and yes, that's stupid and sad and pathetic but it is what it is I have nothing without him. it's wrong and it's dangerous and it's stupid to have my meaning invested in someone else but it's too late for that, and now i am a total messss. I'm going to try to go.

October 24, 2006
11:11 am
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StronginHim77
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South -

I have read this entire thread. Having been in your shoes, I understand the panic you are experiencing. We, codependents, do feel as if we can't "survive without him;" we do "hang on for dear life" and that we genuinely know that we "just can't survive" without that man in our lives.

Right now, you are a woman, split in two. How so? Your mind knows the Truth. But you are unable to make decisions, according to that Truth. Why? Because your other half is EMOTION-DRIVEN. You are driven by the frantic, codependent, panic-stricken need to HOLD ONTO THAT MAN AT ANY COST. Because without him, you have no identity. You are nothing. Worthless. Empty. Abandoned. Alone.

We've all been there. We've felt those horrible feelings, thought those terrifying thoughts and re-acted accordingly. What you are experiencing can (literally) make you ill. PHYSICALLY ill. Heck. I landed in my local hospital's ER twice, while I was in the throes of what you are suffering.

My obsessive need to justify, rationalize, explain, exonerate, excuse and idealize the man who nearly tormented me into a breakdown (and yes - he used silent withdrawal as a punishment for me whenever I displeased him) nearly pushed me over the edge. I gave up so much for him: my self-esteem, my inner Truth, my friendships, the respect of my children, my peace, my joy, my personal freedom and my right to do whatever I wanted, whenever I chose. I laid it all on the altar of Codependent Need and lit the firewood with the fires of my inner panic and dread of losing him.

I understand, South. I really do.

All I can do is stand by in love. You know the answers here. You know what he is. You know what he is doing. You know what is happening and why. And you are the only one who will know when you are ready to do something to save yourself.

Love,

Ma Strong

October 24, 2006
11:29 am
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Zinnie
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Zax,

I posted on your other thread about this jerk.

Please read... and get rid of this creep!

Z.

October 24, 2006
11:31 am
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thanks ma.

I have made an appointment for a psych consult - hopefully I can get some sort of low-income assistance to help with the cost of anti-depressants. If I wasn't without health insurance, I would maybe have done this sooner. I have to get my mind back together. I know this isn't what you mean by saving myself, but it's something. It's what I am willing, and hopefully able to do for myself.

October 24, 2006
11:38 am
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Dear South -

We all have to reach that point of saying "No More" on our own timetable. Your timetable is not my timetable. You will know when you have had enough...when you are strong enough and desperate enough to take a stand for yourself and sever the relationship. You can't do it, until you're ready. Medication will help. My doctor gave me temporary medication to help me with the panic attacks and anxiety I was suffering during those final months with my ex.

And with the rough months, immediately following my decision to step back and maintain "No Contact" whe

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