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zax here, I really need help, please.
October 23, 2006
7:20 pm
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southgoingzax
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why would he do that? Why would he want me to feel bad about things in the dojo? He wasn't just sharing? Telling me something to let me know what was being said about me? Was he really trying to hurt me with that information? Is he really that bad?

October 23, 2006
7:21 pm
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healintime
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Zax - bigger picture? Since you and P started seeing each other again have the two of you had a direct conversation about what's going one? About whether you're back together? About what the ground rules are?

October 23, 2006
7:23 pm
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healintime
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Remember in high school when catty girls would say something like "I'm your friend and you should know this - So and so is telling everyone that you're a bitch."

October 23, 2006
7:25 pm
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southgoingzax
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no. But the conversation, I don't know how it started, where we were in our big discussion - if it was before or after me asking him what he had told people about us, the "break", and everything...I can't remember. But he started to say something, and then stopped, and then said, no, never mind, I shouldn't tell you this. And I said, no what? What is it? And then he said, "did you see sensei talking to me before class, well, apparently, someone told her that you were going to make me quit the dojo. She asked if I was, and I told her no, of course not. And then I said if I knew who said that, I was going to have a "conversation" with that person, and she said, 'somehow I think it might be more than a "conversation", which is why I am not telling you who said that."

But don't you think it matters if I had asked him what he had been telling people, what people had been saying, that he included that, so that I would know?

October 23, 2006
7:26 pm
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healintime
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Unless P is developmentally delayed - how could he possibly tell you that the Sensei (I don't know much about martial arts but I do know that Sensei's hold a position of authority and respect above and beyond just being business owners) of the Dojo had intimated that you would "make" him leave because you were a woman scorned and expect that you wouldn't be upset to hear that.

October 23, 2006
7:30 pm
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southgoingzax
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Yes and no - We have had a lot of big talks, and are...or at least, were, starting to lay ground rules. The first being that he would not decide to take a "break" again autonomously - that he would come to me and talk things out. That was really as far as it had gotten, but we had definitely agreed to give it another chance. We agreed we were back together. And he agreed to keep talking and working through our other issues with me.

October 23, 2006
7:34 pm
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healintime
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No, I don't. I really don't. I think that when someone loves and cares for you that they have a pretty good filter about what will hurt you.

I'm friends with two great girls - J and V. V is unbelievably anal. Neat freek, plan freak, organizer freak. Irons her underwear. When she's really stressed it gets worse. It can be frustrating for those who love her. J and I occasionally have a laugh about it - but it's from some deep seated "stuff" that means she tries hard to control the uncontrollable wny way she can (usually with cleaning products).

Neither of us would -ever- mention it to her face - because she woul dbe mortified, and we love her. Enough to deal with having her wipe the coaster under our glasses when we lift it to take a sip.

There are things that you just don't tell people.

And seriously, he broke the Sensei's trust by telling you. I'm sure she would be -mortified- that he did. It wasn't just an administration detail - she asked whether you were the sort of girl who would run an ex-boyfriend out of the Dojo. If she is angry that he repeated that conversation she has every right to be.

October 23, 2006
7:35 pm
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southgoingzax
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I don't know. I just...I never thought he did things intentionally to hurt me, I just thought he was oblivious to most human emotions and so maybe he never thought I would be bothered by it.

Is that really the truth? Did he twist sensei's words to make me feel bad, knowing the volatile past I have had with her, knowing that it WOULD bother me? Is he so mad now not because I spoke to her but because I blew his cover? Oh, god! Could I feel any worse?

October 23, 2006
7:38 pm
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healintime
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Zax, since you've been back together you've had two fights and now this. From your posts it sounds like P is working hard to try to assert control. Really - I mean that objectively. Comments about your immaturity - your state of mind - and now being angry that you stood up for yourself and made yourself heard.

If he breaks up with you over this, how tenuous is the relationship? Can you deal with walking on eggshells indefinitely?

October 23, 2006
7:40 pm
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healintime
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You have a volatile past with her? He knows this???

And you think that he didn't know that what he said would make you uncomfortable?????????????????

October 23, 2006
7:42 pm
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southgoingzax
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I don't know, healin, I feel guilty, I feel at fault, I shouldn't have said anything - he was trusting me to use discretion and I didn't, and now sensei IS probably mad at him. Oh fuck. Oh help me, he's never going to forgive me and how sad is it that I am trying to defend him? But it just doesn't seem right, that he would try to hurt me like that, his crimes have usually been of omission, not this...direct intentional manipulation. At least I always thought so - whose story is the right one? Which version is the truth? I can't believe he really did this on purpose.

I know you must think I am entirely too thick-headed, but I just can't accept that he did this to hurt me - how can that be true? Why would he do that? When he wanted to be back together?

October 23, 2006
7:44 pm
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healintime
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I think that when you started setting boundaries and didn't just fly back into his arms, you probably shocked the pants off P. You challenged his authority zax.

Controlling men, subtly, give us a list of rules. We play by them nicely until we can't do that any more - and when we start breaking the rules, they have a tendency to bring on the backlash. Did you ever read that Lundy Bancroft book you got from the library? There's a great part in there about setting boundaries and then trusting that they'll accept that. There's a honeymoon period until you're back in the picture and then they double their efforts to assert control.

October 23, 2006
7:46 pm
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healintime
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Zax - do you have any of the Melody Beattie books?

October 23, 2006
7:49 pm
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healintime
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You're feeling badly because you broke the rule that says you have to put P first - even if that means losing your voice.

It's his fault for telling you something that -he- had been entrusted not to. He knows he screwed up. I can'y imagine, especially if you've had problems with Sensei that he knows about, that he told you this to make you feel comfortable, or good.

Can you? Honestly - I ask you that in all seriousness. If you have a history with this woman can you imagine that P didn't know that it would upset you?

October 23, 2006
7:51 pm
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southgoingzax
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"You have a volatile past with her? He knows this???

And you think that he didn't know that what he said would make you uncomfortable?????????????????"

Yes, I mean, he was always telling me not to let her get to me, not to get involved in her craziness, not to put too much stock in her obsession with our relationship (it truely was an obsession) and to let it go. I always thought he was trying to help me. I guess, when you put in in that light, it doesn't make sense for him not to know I would be upset by it, but maybe he thought I was past all that and it wouldn't bother me - I'm sure he thought it SHOULDN'T bother me, or he wouldn't have told me - maybe he thought I'd think it was funny. I don't know.

Help me stop defending him. Help me stop feeling so damn stupid.

October 23, 2006
7:55 pm
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healintime
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"I really shouldn't tell you this..." is a little like

"no offence, but..." or

" I don't want to hurt your feelings, but..."

When anyone uses those phrases you know that THEY know they -really- shouldn't be telling you, that they know they're about to offend you and that they are fully aware that your feelings are going to be hurt. The preface is basically an indicator that they know in their heart that they're about to hurt you.

October 23, 2006
7:58 pm
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healintime
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Zax, I had a crazy, jealous, manipulative friend who really, really had a crush on my ex. She was the only person who actually liked him.

When I left - I spoke to him on the phone - I called specifically to say that she was fragile, lonely and would reach out to hom (they only met a handful of times). I asked that he be cordial but not see her because things between us had been rough enough and that it would put me in a horrible position.

Well, I had been home six weeks when a friend mailed to ask whether I was okay with their date (she'd told everyone I would be fine with it).

October 23, 2006
8:00 pm
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southgoingzax
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I did read the Lundy book, and I've read two by Beattie - I just...he didn't....

He didn't seem to be that way. He didn't really fit any of the profiles, he just mostly ignores me when he is angry with me - the cold shoulder, and then does not want to talk about it after he has forgiven me. Yes, I understand that in itself is manipulative and controlling. But he never seemed to do anything else in the book - he USED to yell at me, once a year, or so, about being too passive, not being more animated or directional or sure of myself, but I drew the line and made it clear it wasn't acceptable to yell at me and he hasn't in probably three years or so.

The only other place where our lives really intersect is at the dojo - and we have had our share of problems and conflicts with that, but isn't that normal because of our relationship and the difference in our rank - I mean, surely there are some tensions to be expected with that kind of situation...

I mean, I guess I never really saw him as that controlling or manipulative - it always just seemed like he just didn't care that much or wasn't tuned in to my feelings. I never thought he was like that.

October 23, 2006
8:00 pm
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healintime
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I called and left a message that I needed to speak to her. I mailed him briefly to say that I was devastated, and confused - and that it was the only thing i had ever asked of him. If he didn't understand why I wasn't okay with it that there was nothing left to talk about.

October 23, 2006
8:01 pm
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healintime
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He mailed to tell me that he would cancel, immediately, and it was no big deal - just a dinner, definitely not a date.

October 23, 2006
8:02 pm
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southgoingzax
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what happened?

October 23, 2006
8:03 pm
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healintime
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She emailed to say how excited she'd been (she would have been travelling four hours round trip to see him) and that I was "silly" for minding a dinner between friends but that I knew how badly she needed some company and how attracted she had always been to him - yada yada.

I mailed her to say that after all that had happened between me and the ex, after all the things he had done - that I coudln't be friends with someone who thought that dating him would -ever- be okay with me. And that it had taken me a year to walk away and make some distance - boundaries that she had violated.

October 23, 2006
8:07 pm
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healintime
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I called him to talk about it about a week later after I had settled down and -he- was angry with -me-.

I was "making a fuss over nothing." I knew that "she was crazy" but also that she was really fragile and "I had wounded her deeply." (He barely knew her and had always been utterly scathing of her).

October 23, 2006
8:07 pm
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healintime
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He siad I obvously had some "issues to owrk through with my relationship with her" and that it "wasn't his problem.

October 23, 2006
8:08 pm
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southgoingzax
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It's not a very nice friend who goes after an ex - it's insulting, that she cared so little for your pain and only thought of her own gratification.

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