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Wow, who wrote the stuff at the beginning of this page
January 9, 2009
10:10 pm
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Philips
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Bevdee, what that poke directed at me.

Or someone else

Misogynists, are you actually calling me misogynists...if so... then you should stoop so low to call other people names.

January 9, 2009
10:44 pm
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bevdee
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Phil

No, I wasn't stooping to call you a name. I'm sorry you assumed that. Did you check the links MsG provided? If you did, can you see how she, I, or any female that went on that site intent on changing their perceptions about women, marriage, divorce, etc, would be wasting our time? Unless, that is, we just wanted to flame the misogynists at that site and start up a big controversy.

If I might make a suggestion - why don't you ask the question phrased as a question with a question mark at the end of the sentence? Then simply wait for my answer before accusing me of stooping and name calling.

January 9, 2009
10:54 pm
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Yea, how about we MOVE this topic to the Libs side. Phillips, the Libs side is the "Liberation Brew" link you see above the edit box.

If you have any more replies, please see the 'Liberation Brew Threads'

January 9, 2009
10:57 pm
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horsefly
this is off....be on this forum for years....not just since last year..we can email each other Now? that Nappy is long gone....
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Phillips, I my life I have seen both sides. Sometimes men go to jail when the woman attacked them. No, that is not right....anyone provoked in violence is going to strike back. Woman are violent too. ( not me) . But sometimes the man gets all the rap for it.....every situation is as different as a leaf falling. horsefly

January 9, 2009
11:12 pm
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horsefly
this is off....be on this forum for years....not just since last year..we can email each other Now? that Nappy is long gone....
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Plus, We have grown in a society where the men are tougher all around, Women get hurt physically by abuse. Woman need to learn to never take the first punch on a man twice her size..for what ever the reason is...I did before....nearly got killed. Women and Men are built different ..if you noticed. Mentally even...in my opinion, horsefly

January 10, 2009
12:12 am
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MsGuided
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Heavy topic: gender wars and misunderstandings.

I find a lot of things offensive these days and the gender divide is one of them.

Good men being dragged through the mud by their mates and not getting support or their rights recognized in courts.

Also the long history of servitude, living as second class citizens women have had to endure, a continued beleif that they deserve little respect or freedom bothers me.

Womens bodies and sexuality get exploited and sold every day just like a mans strength is exploited and they are sent to war. Each gender gets used by their defining traits. We're all pawns really.

Humans cultivate violence and have a warped concept of what true power is. Power isn't meerly subjugating others to abuse and vieled exploitation. This culture we live in creates a breeding ground for misunderstandings and here it is playing out.

It's up to Philip to move this thread to the libs side, and it's up to all of us to be carefull what we say on this side in respect the posters and site rules.

The guy is meerly posting stats for discussion.

If women can post here about all the bad men in the world, their bad experiences, post references and research the same right should be afforded men too.

PEACE!

January 10, 2009
1:19 pm
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Philips
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@bevdee: Just checked out those site and I 10000% agree with you. Sure is a lot of woman hating going on over there...and the weird part is, it does no one any good

If you are man visiting that site, you are getting highly biased info about divorce and marriage and perhaps form an opinion that IMHO is wrong.

If you are woman and visit those site you begin to think all men are like that.

Here is my perspective.

If I had visited those sites after divorcing my first wife...I would have 100% agreed with everything that was said...as I visit them today though, I have much different opinion almost exclusivly because of the woman I am with now.

January 10, 2009
1:29 pm
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Philips
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@MsGuided

You are so right that men and women are exploited for their different traits and abilities.

From a mans perspective though it 'appears' that society, including government and the new laws are ONLY concerned with one genders exploitation.

It also appears to me that the main stream media is only concerned with it as well. e.g. I have noticed of late that almost all advertising about the aids epidemic is concerned with how it effects women even though men are still the #1 infected and fatal group of all.

I saw a US Senator say a few years ago something that I thought was kind of sexist BUT perhaps HE might have been on to something. "If you want to get a bill passed thru the senate with as little trouble as possible, you have to find a way to make it into a womans issue". Quite a controversal statement to be sure, but take a look around the TV, Radio, advertising and perhaps you will see what he is talking about.

Of course speaking of advertising, here is something I did about 6 months ago on the prodding of my wife. Everytime a commercial comes on, make note of the following

1) Is the product designed for a specific gender , if so record which one.

2) Even if not for a specific gender, make note of how any women in the ad are portrayed and how any men are protrayed.

3) When there is a battle of the sexes in the ad, who 'wins', who is made to look stupid etc.

In my experience, the man is always always made to look like a complete idiot who couldn't tie his shoes without the help of his wife/girlfriend.

Here is the danger of this IMHO, kids. Kids see this and start to form opinions about the genders they see.

Well, I was on a bit of a rant there..I will stop now.

January 10, 2009
8:12 pm
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glittered when he walked
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Phil,

welcome. You stated earlier "Can someone explain to me WHY it even matters if 40% were female-parent families. All that says to me is that children are MORE in danger in single mother homes than in single father homes or multi parent homes."

I don't see how that is a logical deduction. All they are saying is that if the data set is 40% single mom homes, then any violence toward children will necessarily reflect a high % of women committing that violence. as such the data set is biased against women if you express child abuse as being attributable to any one gender. For example if 90% of the data set were single women families then it would be ambiguous at best to draw conclusions as to which gender is more or less responsible for child abuse.

Further, there are many different kids of abuse. Could it not be argued that not participating in raising a family is also a form of abuse? the denial of affection and parenting? It can be argued that negligence is abusive. People have been convicted of depraved indifference.

My guess is that men are more likely to be physically abusive and women are more likely to be emotionally abusive.

I agree with you that all too frequently for my liking that advertising and TV often depicts guys, especially white guys, as bumbling boobs. Because think about it..you have to tread lightly these days lest you be considered as sexist or racist. That message used to bother me a little as i have 3 daughters, but then i realized that as their father (and the best one I can be) they get a daily example of a good man. and that should weigh more heavily in their minds than what they see on some crappy TV show or commercial.

January 10, 2009
8:24 pm
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glittered when he walked
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or alternatively, that the data set maybe biased against men.

e.g. If single mom families make up 50% of families in that society, then a data set that only reflects single mom families at 40% would water down the true number.

conversely, if single mom families make up 30% of the families in that society, then using a data set is 40% will overestimate the abuse committed by women.

clear as mud? If i abused any readers minds...my apologies. ; )

January 10, 2009
8:34 pm
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Philips
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@glittered.

In reference to this.

"For example if 90% of the data set were single women families then it would be ambiguous at best to draw conclusions as to which gender is more or less responsible for child abuse."

Actually NO, it wouldn't. Assuming that the numbers as they are right now remain the same (approx 60% of child abuse is attrib to women) the women would be responsible for MORE child abuse, in the example above 60%, the fact that there are more (90%) single mom households does not change who is responsible more. BTW, I am trying to dig up some stats which actually account for this, as they adjust for single mom/dad households, I know a while back the stats I saw actually made the the percentage go UP when they were adjusted for single mom households.

One other thing about the stats for child abuse that is 'wrong' imho. They count step-dads and boyfriends on the "DAD" side of the equation which IMHO is wrong , they should actually be counted on the "MOM" side as that is who has care and control of the children.

Also, from what I have read, the ONLY categories of abuse that men are higher in are sexual and "Witnessing domestic abuse" <--whatever that is. If you remove the last one, moms are actually responsible for approx 75% of abuse. Now , does this make sense in terms of how much time they spend with the kids , sure it does. BUT does it really matter when talking about child abuse..imho, NO it doesn't. When the kid is being abused, it sure does hurt any less because mom spend more time with him than dad while she is hitting/abusing him/her.

January 10, 2009
8:40 pm
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Philips
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@glitter

"Further, there are many different kids of abuse. Could it not be argued that not participating in raising a family is also a form of abuse? the denial of affection and parenting? It can be argued that negligence is abusive. People have been convicted of depraved indifference."

That could be right depending on the circumstances, BUT remember women request divorce much more often than men do and receive custody of the kids. I could be said THEY control who sees the kids and when. If someone isn't participating in raising the family a case could be made that perhaps it isn't HIS fault per se.

IMHO , the default position should be 50/50 custody. This should be adjusted of course as necessary, but it should start out that way. As it is right now, Fathers have prove themselves fit parents to get any kind of decent visitation (which is a word I despise) whereas MOM generally doesn't. When you consider the percentage of women vs men abusing kids this seems to go against the very notion of "best interest of the kids".

January 12, 2009
1:16 am
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glittered when he walked
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Phil,

au contraire..a biased data set does not by definition accurately reflect the data of an entire population. data can be normalized sometimes perhaps..sometimes it cannot. it depends.

Let's substitute 90% women in the above example for this. e.g. we examined 1000 homes in North America...90% of which were single moms households where the mothers had red hair (for the sake of argument let's say). We found that children were abused in 100 of the 1000 homes. In those 100 homes, 92% of the abusers were red headed women.
It would NOT follow to state then that 92% of the ALL the children abused in ALL OF NORTH AMERICA are abused by red headed women. Do you see now what I'm getting at? To draw DIRECT conclusions about an entire population one must have a subset of that population that truly represents the population as a whole.

The default position of any given custody case is what is best for the children. That is ideally what the courts evaluate and determine.

Sure some vindictive women i am sure manipulate the system to their advantage...I'm guessing though that there are guys who pull some crappy stuff too and it's probably a wash. and some couples do reach amicable divorces. many cases involve "shared" custody..whether it's 50/50..60/40...etc. when you say visitation are you speaking of supervised visits? that's another matter entirely.

I will grant you that here in the US that i think the Bradley amendment is bad legislation. It was intended to give the legal system some teeth in dealing with deadbeat dad's but it's language is so draconian that it prohibits a man, or a woman, who is ordered to pay child support from getting the support reduced even in the event of hardship such as loss of job, injury, shoot one guy in the first iraq war was a POW who was later arrested on his return to the US for not paying child support! I'm thinking child support payments would be difficult to achieve from an Iraqi jail. ; )

January 12, 2009
6:34 am
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Philips
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I see your point, but the data I saw showed that when they used ONLY single mom and single dad households MOM were way ahead in terms of abuse...and they used a rate not just raw numbers. Trying to dig up the site I saw.

I would disagree that the default position is what is best for the child. The default position here is that MOM gets the kids, and dad has to fight.

WHen referring to visitation (A word I hate), I was indicating that DAD become a visitor and almost ceases to be a parent.

AND yes, CS is draconion and the method used to calc it are way out to freaking lunch.

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