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Worried Dad - Wondering?
May 17, 2004
10:37 pm
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Zinnie
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How did it go today with the "Holy's"?

Z.

May 18, 2004
2:02 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Met with the Holy’s Went bad.

As a reminder, the Holy’s were a husband and wife team of counselors who “counseled” me and “D” for years.

Would somebody comment on whether my complaints make any sense? Can anyone see what I think their mistakes were?

The grievance I tried to present to them was as follows:

WD to Doctor Holyshrink:

1) For four years you saw “D” and I. Each appointment was at my insistence. At each appointment I voiced the complaint that “D” was not keeping agreements, that she had a sexual agenda for me that I wanted no part of . I had told her “no, a thousand times no. Not now, not ever.” At each appointment I explained that I was ready to leave the relationship over the harrasment. Rather than explain to “D” that this was harrassment and abuse, and rather than offer me education about just what does it mean when people refuse to take “no” for an answer about sex, you encouraged me to stay in the realtionship and told us basically “try to be nice to each other” or you said “Oh, WD, why are you so angry at D?”

2) “D” threatened to hurt my child in front of a licensed counselor employed by your facility who was your trainee and supervisee. There was no professional response to that other than “WD why are you angry at D?”

3) After three years of battering I told your wife, a counselor being trained and supervised by you that I was leaving “D” consequent to her assaulting me in front of my child. Your wife encouraged me to remain in the relationship. So did you. Your exact words were “You are the only one D will let herslef learn from, the only one she will let herself get close to. I’m afraid that if you just throw her out on her asshole that she will withdraw with the child, and I’ve seen what happened to little boys who are left alone with their crazy mothers.

4) I remained in the relationship and as a “treatment” undertook a ten month course of “Love Training” which while a fine thing for happily married couples, was the exact wrong thing for couples in crisis because it in no way shape or form addressed the subject of abuse in relationships. It was, in fact a form of couples counseling, which is known to usually make things worse for victims of abuse.

May 18, 2004
2:24 pm
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annastar
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Dear WD! It is such a deep issue! I have few comments, but not sure- this is what you looking fore. Remember- we still don't know where have you got an idea that she will hurt your child. See- in this country- spanking and any form of physical punishment of children considered abuse. In my country, and in many- many countries of the world it is o.k and encouraged to punish children. If you want to have discussion about it some day, we may, but I just want to tell you that what you call abuse, for some one can be just normal child/caregiver interaction. It would be important to know what exactly you mean, when you say "Hurt my child".

May 18, 2004
3:13 pm
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Worried_Dad
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annastar,

Okay. They know she was abusive to her previous partner. They know she has been running a Fatal Attraction trip on me.

Then she says "I've been thinking of hurting "J" to get back at WD"

The shrink says "I take your threat very seriously."

Before I know it, I am again hearing "Why are you so mad at "?"

May 18, 2004
3:45 pm
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annastar
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From my personal experience I would say- there are types of personalities that just make dangerous mix. Personality conflict. They working hard on making it work, produce so much passion and energy, but it often lead to the bad end. And I have feeling that you and “D” wear one of those combinations. So- from this point- yea, telling you to “stay together” was not professional. I believe- “D” could find “provider” type of men that will crazy about her, buying her presents and paying her and her child’s bills, so she don’t have to work, and you could find “Goddess” as you like, and “nice” girl on a side that would put up with it, wait for you at home, never bother you, have babies for you and support them on her own with your help. But by now I believe- you getting ready for healthy, mature relationships based on respect and understanding- this is what you may want to look for.

May 18, 2004
4:04 pm
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Worried_Dad
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annastar,

Now you are really starting to piss me off.

May 18, 2004
4:46 pm
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annastar
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O- I am sorry, if I did! I guess- I could say it softer. I guess- that’s your “fatal attraction” remark has some thing to do with it. And- may be- may be I can not forgive you for “C”? I told you- I am not always talking to you! But in general don’t you think- you two had personality conflict?

May 18, 2004
5:27 pm
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Worried_Dad
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annastar,

Sigh. Yes, the personality conflict was between a person who trusts in the good intentions of others, who keeps agreements meticulously and tells the truth, and another person who will say whatever they have to to get you into bed.

The conflict was between someone who believed in relating with RESPECT and ACCEPTANCE and someone who COULD NOT TAKE NO FOR AN ANSWER.

You have a hard time "forgiving" me for defending my right to enjoy my PRIMARY RELATIONSHIP of many years duration?

Why don't you beat me and kidnap my child then? That oughta teach me.

May 18, 2004
5:53 pm
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annastar
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WD, dear, I am sorry if I upset you any how at any time. This is official "I am sorry", and I mean it. You are the good guy and I wish I can do some thing nice for you. Some time I can not keep myself from comments, and- may be I should. I personally understand your relationships with "C", and- hay- I am dealing with it every day! And- because "she" keeping “him” in fear that "he" can abandon "him" and take away his (her) little girl, keeping “him” from loving his own unborn child. So- may be- this is just my stuff, and "C" is a good person. And I have no rights to mix it together. So- please, don’t worry about it.

May 18, 2004
6:45 pm
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Anonymous
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Annastar I think I best that you drop this

May 18, 2004
8:52 pm
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Zinnie
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HI WD,

Here are my thoughts to what you are asking. Again, always feel free to tell me to "stuff it" ...

You wrote: "1) For four years you saw “D” and I. Each appointment was at my insistence. At each appointment I voiced the complaint that “D” was not keeping agreements, that she had a sexual agenda for me that I wanted no part of . I had told her “no, a thousand times no. Not now, not ever.” At each appointment I explained that I was ready to leave the relationship over the harrasment. Rather than explain to “D” that this was harrassment and abuse, and rather than offer me education about just what does it mean when people refuse to take “no” for an answer about sex, you encouraged me to stay in the realtionship and told us basically “try to be nice to each other” or you said “Oh, WD, why are you so angry at D?”

- I guess my first question would be, as you wanted no relationship aside from friendship with "D" - how do you think you finally succumbed to the physical? Just a short clarification, please. I realize that you were in a life style of many physical relationships, and that was your choice as long as your partners understood and kept their agreements. Yet, "D" was not willing to keep the agreements - so why did you finally give in? That is the mental aspect that the "Holy's" should have delved into with you. BUT, for what they should have been dealing with "D" is the fact that she felt she needed to obsessively chase you, and terrorize you. Addtionally, as her actions were essentially stalking, depending on the year(s) this was happening, and the laws where you live, in all honesty, legally and ethically, they should have reported her to the police. Although again, that is going to depend on what the laws in your state are. Lastly, do you think that they did not act accordingly as they were trying to "handle the situation within the Good Enough community" instead of bringing in the outside?

2) “D” threatened to hurt my child in front of a licensed counselor employed by your facility who was your trainee and supervisee. There was no professional response to that other than “WD why are you angry at D?”

Again, this should have been reported immediately to CPS, and that was made a Federal Law within the mental health community within the last ten years. Again, this is why you may actually have a case of negligence against them.

3) After three years of battering I told your wife, a counselor being trained and supervised by you that I was leaving “D” consequent to her assaulting me in front of my child. Your wife encouraged me to remain in the relationship. So did you. Your exact words were “You are the only one D will let herslef learn from, the only one she will let herself get close to. I’m afraid that if you just throw her out on her asshole that she will withdraw with the child, and I’ve seen what happened to little boys who are left alone with their crazy mothers.

This disturbs me greatly. Why would they not have encouraged you to leave, and take your child with you?

4) I remained in the relationship and as a “treatment” undertook a ten month course of “Love Training” which while a fine thing for happily married couples, was the exact wrong thing for couples in crisis because it in no way shape or form addressed the subject of abuse in relationships. It was, in fact a form of couples counseling, which is known to usually make things worse for victims of abuse.

This, you will get as many different theories on as there are mental health professionals. However, I would be intrested in knowing what the "Love Training" consisted of, if you don't mind enlightening me.

Z.

May 18, 2004
9:44 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Zinnie,

Yes, they were trying to handle it "In Community."

The important thing about "Love Training" is that that's all there was. Nothing like "Gee, did she hurt you? How long has this been going on? You know this is a bad sign."

Just "learn to be more loving."

May 18, 2004
9:47 pm
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Zinnie
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Thanks for the clarification WD. Did they express any concern at all for your missing son?

May 18, 2004
9:58 pm
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Worried_Dad
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I think the Holy's are way into valuing and preserving relationships at all cost.

Best I can tell RE interventions to abuse, about the only thing that works is if the abuser hears that they are being....abusive.

I was willing to offer her the relationship we contracted for, which was similar to what was given me by "C." She said she wanted a relationship that was unlike her relationship with "Mr. T." A relationship without deception, coercion, violence, based on respect.

She also wanted a relationship which was unlike her relationship with the guy she was living with. That guy, she said, wouldn't make love with her, made her sleep in her own room, etc. She was lying about that of course.

I felt like I had a lot of love to give, and something to offer her in terms of learning. Silly me. My relationship with "C," although primary, was wide open.

I encouraged "D" to explore relationships with other guys--play the field, see what men are like, find out what she likes, etc. And she did end up having some connections with other men, for which I thanked God.

How it is that "D" finally had her way with me is coming up in the digest.

May 18, 2004
10:08 pm
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Zinnie
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What are you planning on doing regarding the negligence of the "Holy's" - have you thought that far?

I would like to read more about the Holy's case methodolgy, as in actuality is sounds a little "out there" to me anyway.

May 18, 2004
10:44 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Zinnie,

No, although they feel sorry for me being separated from my son, the Holy's have never expressed the slightest inkling of awareness that I am not the only victim here.

And they only consider the hitting to be abuse--never mind my brain.

May 19, 2004
2:51 am
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Zinnie
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Then you are extremely correct in saying they are so completely removed from any current mental health teachings of the last 20 years, in honesty - they should not be practicing. Believe it or not, even the Catholic Church, inclusive pastoral counseling believes in mental and emotional abuse.

By the way, did you know that on the Good Enough link that you posted, Dr. Holy, DOES reference following some of the teachings of Adidam?

Just FYI.

Z.

May 19, 2004
7:29 am
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Worried_Dad
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Yes, I have found it. How embarrassing. To make things worse, the Doctor actually has a photographic portrait of Adi Da in his office!

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