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which road to choose
October 12, 2005
8:30 pm
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22haha
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Well, my bf decided to go to therapy and get help. So, he had one visit and I have had one visit. Problem is in my heart I know I love him (6yrs. together) but in my head I can't seem to stop the mumble that is telling me this will never work. He is trying by spending more time with me but then he isn't trying because he can be disrepectful and unemotional toward me. He is so blah everyday. It's almost like being around him makes me blah. I am a peppy person but I just feel like I have no energy. I think about the relationship all day long, things he has said, done, things that are o.k., bad etc. It's totally controlling all my thoughts. Is it a normal reaction for a guy that when I express my feelings to him that he gets up and leaves for 3 hours to go drinking with friends and comes home at 2am and sleeps on the couch? Am I just being clingy and a cry baby? He tells me he is good to me and I need to brush things off more. He says that he courted me for a while now we are just living life (as if that means no more kissing, or hugging). I am very affectionate and he is not but once in a while it would be nice. However, when I am at that point of wanting affection he just can't listen to me talk about it and he leaves me alone crying. Then the next day he says he loves me and I need to get control of myself. He says it is me, I say it is him, is there any help here?

October 12, 2005
11:08 pm
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sygg
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You might be pushing him away, back off for a few weeks with no talks about it. I with you the best. 😉 Nice to meet you.

October 13, 2005
12:02 am
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EJ
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Hi 22,
Listen to your head. This guy's an ass. None of this behavior is normal or acceptable. I know what I'm talking about - I'm 4 months out of a very stupid and ill-conceived marriage with a man who may well be your boyfriend's long lost brother. Let me quote:

1) You have nothing to complain about . . . I could be an alcoholic like my dad.

2) You can't expect me to be a good person - I was an abused child. (Ok, ok, I'm paraphrasing that slightly, but I swear I'm not stretching it much.)

3) If you don't like me, I'm sure some single mother down at the low-income apartments would be glad to have me. (This is a direct quote - I AM NOT KIDDING!)

It all boils down to this. They're ok with themselves the way they are. They feel they have good excuses for any crappy, irresponsible thing they want to do, and they have no intention of changing or taking responsibility.

It's very difficult for nice, codependent girls like us to believe anyone really wants to live that kind of screwed-up, isolated, dysfunctional life, but for some people, domestic disturbances and trips to the OR to have a valium OD pumped out of mom's stomach are cherished childhood memories, sort of like we remember that Christmas when we got the bike or gathering eggs with grandpa.

How long do you suppose it's going to take for my bitter, sarcastic stage of grief to pass???

But seriously, this is a guy who's in counseling to appease you, probably because he has a desperate fear of being left. He's not there to change. He's there to take his punishment, so you'll forget what he's done and take him back. If he wanted to change, he'd at least listen to you once in a while and quit drinking all night.

Last thought: When the horse is dead, GET OFF!!!!!

Lots of Love,
EJ

October 13, 2005
9:00 am
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CAMER
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hi 22, this guy doesn't seem to care about your well being...and for him to run off and drink with his buddies, come home at 2am and sleep on the couch????what kinda life is that!! obviously he runs to the booze when things get tough. And yes, after 6 years you still should have intimacy, with kissing hugging and all that good stuff. He seems to want to stay in his "comfy" zone and put the blame all on you.

Now did he "willingly" go to counseling or did you ask him to go??

Go with your gut instincts on this, and remember, we cannot change anyones thinking and mold them into the person we want them to be.

Keep posting, ok!!!

love, camer

October 13, 2005
9:16 am
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Anonymous
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22 - at first, in the first half of your post - I wanted to say that if he is in couseling, it will take some time for him to turn around..that going to therapy is a good first step.

HOWEVER -

after I read the end - my thoughts aren't so supportive.

my bf and I dealt with alot of crap recently - and he is finally in therapy - and we are in joint therapy.

but there is NO alcohol involved AT ALL - and he comes home every night, snuggles in bed with me, is attentive and affectionate and supportive.

If I had to live with the emotional abuse ongoing - NO - his ass would be out the door...and he could come back when he could treat me with the love, respect, attention, affection and consideration I deserve.

you deserve the same.

have you seen couples interviewed that made it past 50 years of wedded bliss??? they STILL hold hands, they STILL kiss, they STILL look at eachother lovingly, they STILL support eachother...maybe the sex has gone - but the devotion and affection are still there - the tender feelings are still there.

you can go to therapy to change behaviours - but you can't make someone be someone they aren't - and if he thinks he has a right to act like an ass, perhaps nothing will change that. I wonder if you can even teach someone how to be "tender" towards their partner or if it's something that has to come from the inside?

October 13, 2005
12:22 pm
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mrdibbs
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(22)I tend to agree with "sygg" Though a "sick"relationship" can survive.First thing is to get help for yourself.Try ALONON they are very supportive and besides meeting people who are going through the same as you they will give you lots of copeing strategies that will help you.Maybe if he sees you getting help he will in turn get help for himself too.Lots of love and luck x

October 13, 2005
1:08 pm
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sewunique
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If it one biggie I have learned here is when someone does good to or for you (him seeking therapy for your relationship) in the guise of doing good and tirns around with harmful words in that good deed or actions that speak of bad behaviors.........he is only fooling himself. Don't YOU be fooled by him. See it clearly for what he is up to.

Ask yourself this....what are his intentions? Does he walk the walk and talk and talk the talk? If it walks like a duck, it is a duck.

~Sew~

October 13, 2005
1:40 pm
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lessthanalive
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most likely if you have doubts, you have them for a good reason. and it sounds to me like your trying so hard to believe him even though you know its not true, that your making yourself do the crazy dance! i know cuz this is the story of my life. trust your heart. trust yourself that you know something is screwed up and not having the outcome you may have hoped for. love is a verb. if he's saying it thats nice and all but how does he show it? how does he make you feel loved. i did this dance forever with my ex and i allways managed to talk myself into thinking he loved me and he always leaves and this last time when he left, i made up my mind to trust myself and love myself regardless of what he does. i will still love him forever but i have to love him from a distance becauwse he hurts me.

October 13, 2005
7:49 pm
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22haha
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Thanks for all the input. Well, first of all.. I asked him to go to therapy and he said finally that he agreed that he is the problem and he needs help. He said he is afraid of being hurt by people and he pushes everyone away and he didn't want that to happen with me. That was a month ago and he has been to one counseling session and goes again next week. He found the first one to be interesting and said he will give it a chance. However, since then he has done so many things that hurt me and when I tell him he is pushing me away he says "then leave if ya want to" I think this is his defensive side coming out. He knows he needs help and I try and stay with him but it is taking a toll on me. I love him and I know he loves me but after a while it's like, come on already...

Second, he is still intimate with me - when HE wants to be. It always seems to be about when he wants to do something then it is o.k. And of course since I love affection - I'm not going to turn him away, but when I try and he's not in the mood to hug and kiss it's like pulling teeth and I usually end up frustrated and upset.

Third- I just feel like he is miserable in life. He never seems happy and he drinks way more than he should. I get upset that he isn't happy althought I know it is not me. However, when you care about someone it's hard not to let it bother you. So, i feel like I am really struggling these days to stay with him (the way he is) or to leave and be alone. I love him and I don't want to be without him but it would be so nice to have someone hold me and take care of me the way I do EVERYONE else. I give give give and have no one to rely on for my emotional support. It is very lonely after a while, makes me want to cry.

My dad was an alcoholic and my mother took so much crap - I guess I have become my sweet mother. You would think the man that loves you would be sympathetic to your past - but he has his own issues to deal with. Not to mention he has cheated, lied and betrayed me in the past. But I could go on for days about the past. I am trying to focus on today and today he is in therapy and I am still unhappy.

October 13, 2005
8:13 pm
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Sobers_Honey
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HI 22, I sympathize with & know exactly what you're going through. Except mine thinks that having sex shows me how much he loves me. When you get treated like dirt & are lied to & taken for granted, you have no desire to be intimate with that person. It makes me feel like a $2 dollar whore. Then I feel even worse about myself & the whole situation. Everytime I try to have a serious conversation with him, wether it be our relationship, the kids bills etc. He gets all mad & disappears to get drunk. One time he actually left when social services was here to talk to us about an accusation his daughter had made (she had told the school I had hit her, but had actually just pulled her off her brother to prevent her from beating the S*** out of him)leaving me to fend for myself. The daughter is another whole can of worms which I won't get into right now. I just wanted to let you know that there are others out here like you & that you don't have to do this alone.

October 13, 2005
8:34 pm
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prison4parents
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He has control issues and appears to be a mysogonist like the man I married. Ditch him now save yourself the heartbreak, they are almost impossible to escape once you marry them - honest and true - and their motto becomes "Whatever it is you want you cant have it" and you will ahve cheate dand trapped them and ruine dtheir lives. You will step into a sucking black hole that is endless, at some point you may emerge and 30 years of your life and effort is just gone, time that should have been for building a nest egg or a future, spent trying to accomodate and placate or escape this man - run far run fast and dodge that bullet.

October 13, 2005
10:12 pm
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22haha
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He totally has control issues which I have called him on before. The entire relationship is about him, his schedule, what he wants to do. It's like I can do whatever I want and he doesn't care - until I actually put it to the test. I have become so insecure about him that I am afraid to do my own thing and he just sees me as clingy. We spend a lot of time together and he says that is how he shows me he loves me. BUT, saying and doing are two different things. I tell him to show me and he tells me he isn't going to change or do anything different to blow sunshine up my [email protected]@. Don't get me wrong we do have a nice time from day to day I just feel emotionally detatched from him because he is such a distant person. He doesn't open up, won't share things with me and is very private. He is also secretive which drives me crazy. The wierd thing is.. he is secretive over stupid things. I guess I know what I need to do but how do you go from spending every day for the last 6yrs. with someone and then just walking away? I would loose most of my friends and the man I love at the same time. Its funny that my therapist says... "stop making it about him, what do you want?" Well, what I want is for him to be happy with me and love me normally. I guess you can't always have what you want. So, how do I make it about me then???

October 13, 2005
10:28 pm
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Neshema
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22-
Sounds like you let him define you. his needs define you, his friends define you. You lose him and his friends, you lose you. You can't be yourself around him, because he won't let you, and you allow it. You know what happened to me, 22? I put an end to my "gay bf" defining me and my schedule and our work, and guess what? He got reallllllllllllly mad. He took our toys out of our sandbox and left me with nothing. Now I am so down in the freakin dumps, but I know who I am, and I know who he is. And, he is waiting for me to come crawling back, and he can wait until hell freezes over. I even thought he was a gentleman. At least we know your guy hangs out with naked women in the hot tub and is EWWW. My guy is just a refined version of EWWW. So, either way, when we let them control us, it stings to finally say, YOU CAN'T DO THAT ANYMORE.

October 13, 2005
10:29 pm
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EJ
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Ah, 22, you've summed up the essence of codependency in one sentence: "What I want is for him to be happy with me and love me normally."

You do realize, I hope, that you have absolutely no control over whether this guy ever becomes happy and normal. He's just made you think that you have control over it by sending the message over and over that you're responsible for his happiness or unhappiness. Don't believe it! Stop believing it Today!!!

Take your life back one piece at a time. If you don't have a job, get one. If you don't have any friends apart from him, make one.

If you've allowed him to control all your activities, do something on your own. Find a good church or support group. Make contacts with healthy people outside the relationship who can support you, whatever you decide to do. It will be impossible for you to get out when you feel he controls all sources of your emotional support. No one's strong enough to break free entirely on her own. You have to know that you have people there for you. That's especially hard for us, because usually we have screwed up families who give us terrible advice and no support. But there ARE good people in the world. It just takes effort to find them.

Love and best wishes,
EJ

October 14, 2005
1:09 pm
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22haha
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Ah yes, codependent I am!!! The thing is I have so many wonderful caring friends and family outside of him and I STILL can't let go. I go on these thoughts of "well, maybe this is normal and I am just a dreamer and a cry baby". I guess I just have to stop caring what he is doing. What he does controls what I do. I am so afraid he will cheat on me again I am afraid to live my own life. He isn't very trustworthy although I thought by going to counseling he wanted to change who and how he is. I just don't know anymore. I love him but I am tired of being sad and unhappy. I know he does love me but he is so miserable in life I just want him to snap out of it. FRUSTATION has set in!!!

October 14, 2005
5:19 pm
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geminismiles
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22, your story sounds so much like mine it's eeery! Please, if you can't let go right now detach. empower yourself. STOP letting him be a parasite and suck the life out of you! My x was never "loving" with me when we were intimate. When I tried to express my needs he became defensive and rude. Something inside of you is telling you that you are not happy. Please listen to this voice because one day she will be so muffled you won't be able to hear her at all and then you'll be in extreme danger. You can't MAKE him love you the way you want to be loved because he is loving you in HIS way. HIS way won't change. Let go of the "hope". I "hoped" my life away for 7 Years!!! He never changed - get got worse and I became more and more unhappy. Then my "frustration" turned to resentment. For a long time I thought I had BPD because I felt like "I hate you - Don't leave me"...I don't know, all I can say is that if he's not loving you the way you know and deserve to be loved chances are tomorrow he's still going to be loving you in HIS way. Well, HIS way isn't working is it? Knowing what you need to to for yourself and doing what you need to do for yourself are two different ball games I know. But they don't have to be...

October 14, 2005
6:39 pm
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22haha
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Gemini - you hit the nail on the head. I know he is loving me to the best of HIS ability. You are right though his loving ways are not the way I need or want to be treated. Today I got my hair cut and colored and he looked at me and said "what the hell happened to your head". Now, normally if someone would say this I would laugh but from him it just brewed anger and I got pissed. I am so easy going but he just does nothing to be friendly with me. Then, when I get angry and back off he is nice as can be. Tired of the go around with him. I need to figure out how to let him go and find what I am looking for in a person/relationship. It just amazes me how someone can be so cruel and hurtful to someone that has been nothing but good and helpful. Although, he would tell it another way, I'm sure. Thanks, telling me to detatch is what needs to be done.

Nesh - I will try to define myself and stop letting his world be my world. You are right, without him I feel lost, that needs to stop first and foremost. I will deal with the anxiety of spending nights alone wondering if he is out with other girls because I need to do it for myself. I need to be able to be alone and not worry all the time who (oops, lol) i mean what he is doing.

October 14, 2005
7:13 pm
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Shaney
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Hey there 22 -

I'm not sure that I would expect too much after one therapy session - not to give him any excuses for his behavior, but people don't change over night... and some people never do. Should you leave him? I don't know? I don't really know everything there is to know about your relationship and what sort of life you're willing to tolerate if things don't get better. You're young - I'd hate for you to look back on your life in 5 years and think that you've wasted your love on someone who doesn't love you back the way that you want them to. We can get our shit together, we can regain our self esteem, we can find new loves, but we can never get the time back that we waste. That's my biggest regret looking back - why in the hell did I waste my time on that guy. Time is too precious to have years of regret.

The only thing that I can say about his treatment of you, is that we all set a precedence with these guys the first time that we let them treat us badly without consequence. We should leave right when we see a pattern - not stay in hopes that it will get better, or in hopes that WE can make them change because they love us so much. It RARELY happens that way. The more we let them treat us badly, the more they do it... and the bad treament usually escalates! I've seen it in my friends' relationships a million times. It's a bad cycle to get into, but the hope that it will get better by itself, is just not the case.

22 - you two have had good times, but in these six years, you've also seen a lot of heartache - the cheating, lying, emotional abuse, the beating down of your own self esteem... it all takes it's toll. It's not good for us in any way, shape or form... it ages us.

You're a smart, beautiful, young girl, with a lot of potential. Whatever you don't feel that you have right now, in terms of friends, love, attention, esteem... you can definitely find if you're TRULY open to finding it. You have to be available though, emotionally - and when you're so focused on what your bf is or isn't doing for you, you're not available to be your full potential. Where do YOU see YOURSELF in 3 years? Answer that question for yourself REALISTICALLY and HONESTLY, and then decide what you have to do to get there.

October 14, 2005
7:24 pm
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geminismiles
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(((((22)))))) Just know that you are not alone. I KNOW it's hard. I wanted to leave, i'd feel guilty. I wanted to stay, i'd be unhappy. The bottom line is that life is too short. I used to think: I'd rather be miserable with him than without him. WRONG! Leaving the relationship was painful as hell but I have my life! And I'm sooo thankful for that. Because if he wasn't sucking it from me slowly, he tried taking it from me violently. I finally "woke up". Leaving him was the hardest thing to do, but I did and I am so thankful.

You are an amazing person and a wonderful gift, you have so much to offer the "right" person. That "right" person will appreciate you for who you are...cut, color and all! You deserve to have the one you love gaze loveingly into you eyes, you deserve to have the one you love sweep you up in his arms and tell you everything's going to be alright. You have the right to feel loved, protected, safe and cherished. Don't let fear keep you down because it will for as long as you let it. Look at all of the red flags waving and listen to that inner voice.

October 15, 2005
11:31 am
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22haha
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Shaney and Gem - thanks. I feel like I already lok back and think of all the time I wasted. It is such a cycle. He is an ass one minute and then later that day we are out having a great time - as if the morning thing never happened. I do deserve to be happy. The funny thing is last night he said he felt "blah". Thats funny because that those were my exact words of how I see him. When he is blah I feel blah. Well, I am going to try and build my own person back up and stop letting the fear control me. I have to take my life more seriously because in 3 years I don't want to be on this site writing the same thing about this guy. It's too bad he can't be happier with me but it has nothing to do with me - he isn't happy with anyone including himself. He can keep going to therapy (me as well) and I will try to be a stronger individual.

Shaney - once all these bad things have happened, how do you then try to turn it around and say I am not going to allow this anymore? How do I show him I am serious that he can't do the things he is so used to doing?

Last night was the first time I have seen him jealous EVER. We were in a bar and I was walking by a man who decided to take my hair and smell it (GROSS) and my bf didn't like that at all. Good to know he still cares in some respect.

October 15, 2005
11:46 am
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lollipop3
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22haha,

I don't have much advice here considering I am in the exact same situation. Or have been at least. Mine is coming to an end. Painfully slow, but coming to an end non the less.

However, I would like to touch on something that you said in your last post where you said "good to know he still cares in some respect.".

22, please don't allow his reaction to another man showing interest in you to blind you into thinking that it is a sign of caring. Jealousy has nothing to do with caring. It has everything to do with control. I don't mean to sound harsh but it really has nothing to do with you. His reaction is all about him and his insecurtiy and his fear of losing control of you. Nothing more, nothing less.

I know that you want to believe that it means that he "cares" but it is really just another form of control rearing it's ugly head.

Take care of yourself and keep posting.

Love,
Lolli

October 15, 2005
12:39 pm
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Rasputin
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Hey 22haha,

I am sorry honey you're going thru all these ordeals. It must be awful and debilitating to you and your bf!

I am in similar situation with male friend of mine tho we do not live with each other due to the fact that I am spiritual person.

I would say to your situation is Give him a chance. Change is NOT easy, and not sudden. It is usually a process that is gradual and needs so much patience, prayers, devoted time from both parties involved. In some cases therapy is must in others no.

Luckily no intimacy took place between me and my friend so in this way, I am protecting my heart and soul from any agonies if this relationship is not meant to us.

Haha, Why not develop your spiritual side, pray for him, encourage him thru your support.

So put him to the test and see how he behaves. He might surprise you! However, Do not nag, lecture, baby talk him or do any scolding. When you start to work on your own spirituality, you will notice that you yourself have changed and have adopted a positive attitude. When you change, there is great possibility that he will change too!

I've been told that All marriages and romantic relationship are going to suffer at one moment or another esp after the honey moon and infatuation period have passed!

All the best to you honey!!!~Ras~

October 16, 2005
7:15 pm
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22haha
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Ras, thanks. I am going to work on having more control of myself and my life. I do let him define me and maybe once he realizes that I am able to be on my own and I am not clinging to him then he will loosen up and allow himself to get help. He is in therapy and for that I give him credit. He is NOT the type of person to do something for someone else and I know he is doing it because he knows he needs it. I will try to be stronger on my own yet supportive of him at the same time.

Lolli- I realized lately that there are so many reasons that I feel we do not fit together as a couple. I do think I am a kinder, more patient, easier going person. I stopped the other day dead in my tracks and thought "why do I let this man control me and why do I allow myself to be so hurt by him?" I am a good person and my bf is a very harsh person. I said he cares when the man in the bar noticed me because normally I spend all night watching him to see what girls he is checking out. It was the first time in a long time that I thought "who cares what he does, I am going to pretend I don't care and see what happens". Normally, he walks aways from me, pretends he doesn't care who talks to me and acts like I am a big girl and I can do what I want and it doesn't matter to him. So, when the man at the bar smelled my hair - it was just nice to see a spark in him that I hadn't seen in a long time. I guess I never allow him to have that spark because I am constantly (for 6 yrs) worrying about what he is doing. I understand what you are saying about the control things but for once it just made me smile (internally) and say "see, I am good looking and you better shape up or one of these guys is gonna snatch me up" I felt like I finally had an ounce of control. Guess I kind of liked it for once.

October 16, 2005
8:12 pm
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lollipop3
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Hi 22,

I understand exactly what you are saying. It is nice to feel validated once and while and so often with these men we don't get to feel that.

My therapist tells me that I need to learn to validate myself, and I know that she is right but it stills feel good to be wanted sometimes.

I was just a little concerned that you were misinterpreting his reaction but it seems as though you have a pretty good handle on it and I'm glad to hear that.

Keep taking care of you and you know what.....you are absoultely right....if he doesn't shape up there WILL be someone out that sees you for the wonderful, kind, caring person that you are and when it happens, it will be his loss.

Take care,
Lolli

October 16, 2005
10:38 pm
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human drama
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This thread is very long.
I am tired and need to get some rest.
Hate when I feel this drained.

Looks like you received a bunch of advice! Just wanted to drop in to show support.

Follow your heart!
HD

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