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when to stop forgiving???
August 10, 2001
1:56 pm
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Listen...
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Ladeska, I have a few sparse people very close to me. I choose one man after another to open myself up to. I make myself vulnerable and depend on them not to abandon or hurt me. Showing them this trust, either they run away feeling inadequate, or they stick around not knowing how to help. Right now there's one sticking around, but i'm trying to figure out if he's being narcissitic, or if we're in some kind of co-dependent relationship.

Sometimes I feel like I'm blind - emotionally. It's so hard to see what to do.

August 10, 2001
2:20 pm
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Ladeska
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Listen - Sounds like you are trying to really be aware of what's going on all the way around. So, if you could make a list of the things you want in a man - what would it be?

August 10, 2001
5:59 pm
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Molly
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Can, I share my list, just like my dog, with a great big trust fund.

Seriously I think it stems from child hood, we learned how to manipulate to get what we wanted. If your a good girl, you can get this or that, if you get good grades, you get this or that, if the house is clean when I get home, this or that freedom. Going back to the reward system taught as a child, you were bad, if you didn't please the parent, and if your parents were wacko, as a kid you accepted their style of acting out, and still strived to achieve your individual agenda, from the icecream to the what ever. Learned behavior, but these are not our parents that we are dealing with, we still have the learned behavior, but the equasion is off due to the fact that these folks have other learned skills, that don't match ours, yet there is that learned drive in us, that if we keep jumping through some sort of hoop, run that extra mile, and just try harder we will have manipulated them to the point we need to get what we want.
I am sure this is a very simplistic explanation, and maybe not even close, then you get it, that your in some sort of dance with out music, and say screw every one, I will only do for me what I want to do that brings me pleasure. These folks are not mom and dad, I know what to do at work for my agenda, and relations, well that is where the boundry lines come in. Toss the emotions and electric lust, a date is just a date, if I dress up pretty, he will think I am eye candy, and take me some place nice, if I kiss him, he will buy the dinner, If I sleep with him he will call me again, If I cook him breakfast he won't leave in the night.
But what if you wear what you want, will he still take you out nice, if you don't kiss him, or flatter him, will you get stuck paying for your own meal, and if you don't sleep with him, he might never call again, thus the scenarios that women who have no boundry lines get them selves into. Women for years, have played the game, and now we do it to fast, thus we get stuck with who ever the manipulation of the week is.
I watched a movie the other day, and it reminded me of how did we get from here to here? The man used to have to prove him self worthy of a woman's attention, ya know that hard to get game, yea dude I am a princess, can you climb the wall? Does mom and dad approve, is he educated, is he with secure employment, what is his family back ground, what is his goal, his reputation, and what about the woman's reputation, what vibes does she give off? Does she look easy, does she really mean no when she says no, or quick to change her mind.
We truly have all the power, just like in rape, ain't no way you can rape a drunk man, it don't work.
A man will always try its up to the woman, to draw the lines, to create the expectations, and we have just gotten to damn easy.
I swear if we got some of the old fashioned rules down, and knew who we were before we went looking for what ever the other half looked like we wouldn't be so quick to jump on for the ride. We are just so damn quick to care for them, to let them into our hearts, and lives to share, and provide, with out references, its like we demand more for our cars, than we do for our hearts and souls, like would you take your car to just any one, ugh ugh, oh, he charged me for this tune up, said he was still in school, and didn't really know how to work on my car but I paid him any way and will take it back to him after he finishes his education, and ugh he did put a dent in it with the wrench, but he truly wants to work on my car, and I am sure he has good intentions, I will go back next week and give him, just a little bit more money as an incentive. Ugh, he forgot to tighten the spark plug, and I had to call a tow truck, after sitting on the highway, but he said it would be ready in the morning, I hope he studied spark plug 101 this week I really need my car, oh, he charged me only $500 this time and said he was sorry, wasn't that cute. And he winked at me, but the car isn't running right, it keeps stalling, well I will call him, maybe if I let him keep the car longer he can do it better, well picked up the car today, and he said some one broke into the shop and stole my battery and tires, and he didn't have insurance, so I know its not his fault, and he said he thinks he found the problem but i can always bring it back, got me a good deal on the tires and battery, only $1000. with a warranty, well the car wouldn't start and I had it towed to his shop, and he wasn't there, it was closed down, and the tire is defective, and the battery is dead, I called the number on the warrenty, I wish I could find him, I know he could fix it, as you sit in the parking lot for the rest of your life. Does this make a damn bit of sense?

August 10, 2001
10:13 pm
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Lydia
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I am stretching my boundaries of forgiveness..hopefully for the last time.

I choose to believe he really wants to change and he is proving that daily. My love for him is what compels me to stick by him through this transitional time in his life, hoping that he will keep his promises "to make things right."

I'm scared to death because I know the pain I've endured has been immense. I've listened to all of your warnings and have really done some soul-searching.

I won't run off and get married but I will always wonder "what if" if I didn't give him a chance to reconcile the relationship that I once thought would stand the test of time.

Can anyone relate????

August 13, 2001
8:00 pm
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Molly
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Relate and living it. I am sure you have seen enough of my postings over the years to know that I threw in the towel, left him high and dry, and sadly enough, it sent him into a positive tail spin. he has done lots and lots of work, physical, psychological, emotional. I caved into it, after all, I am the one that professes counseling, supposedly believes in recovery, right? Well after living on my own,for over 2 years, dealing with my financial devistation, job changes, family distortions, which are slower to recover, found my self manipulated with lies, and yet, with a continuing up hill down hill, approach to stability. I have been back for 1 year and 5 months. I have discovered, that the less I give, the more I get. I can't say for sure that I am here to stay,and have had more than one foot out the door since my return. However the closer I get to leaving the closer and harder he gets to keeping me. it is me that sets my boundry lines, and it is me that feels the pain, when I let others cross it. it is me, that needs to take the stand, and me that needs to take care of me. Currently I have all that I need, almost, and still working on the wants, i try real hard not to get into the dance, but have the knowledge of what and who I am dealing with, remember the story of the scorpian and the snake, well, just remember what you did to get where you are at, and don't do it, take what you get as a gift, and never loose focus, of what he is, and what you need to do to protect you. Do, not enable his financial delimma, do not give more than you can, and never loose sight of what he is.

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