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WHAT???
June 18, 2003
7:15 pm
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Uh....well.....someone just sent me this and I read it and am just a little bit stunned. So, what is up with this? A little bit stunned meaning that.. I can still surprised by things like this (There's hope for me yet)but - "chilling" isn't even a good word for this.... what are we doing here?

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCul......asp?Page=\Culture\archive\200306\CUL20030611c.html

Any thoughts?

June 18, 2003
7:55 pm
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I don't think it's a bad thing. The way I read it, it just means that you can't plead insanity after having sex with a child. It makes people a little bit more responsible for their actions. Or maybe I'm just interpreting this wrong.

June 19, 2003
3:22 pm
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"If pedophilia is deemed normal by psychiatrists, then how can it remain illegal?" Nicolosi asked. "It will be a tough fight to prove in the courts that it should still be against the law."

And then I take note of this as well...

NAMBLA, takes the position that sexual relationships between men and boys can be appropriate and should be legal, is considered to be one of the most controversial organizations in the United States.

And I don't know, call me silly nilly but I think we might have a little problem here...

June 19, 2003
3:58 pm
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I agree. It is a problem simply for that fact that it seems to be cloudy in definition. On one hand it seems (as silence pointed out) that by not declaring it a mental illness, perpetrators will be held even MORE accountable because now they don't have the "I was mental" defense to stand on. Not that mental issues should be overlooked of course.

However if this is going to be a tool for adult/child sex advocates, then it bothers me greatly. The playing field for sex between adults and teens/children is not level. Generally, the younger you are, the less mental experience you have to handle sex. I remember being physically ready at 17 but no one prepared me for the emotional attachments and entanglements. Two two teenagers experimenting with sex is a whole lot different than an adult and child...

~smelly_cat

June 19, 2003
4:16 pm
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The thought of any of it makes me cringe, Murderers get off scot free on insanity regaurdless of the legality these "sick" individuals need to be in a place where they can not hurt the individuals that they are hurting screw them they can rott for all I care but the innoscent is who suffers from this the most. Jene

June 19, 2003
4:36 pm
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Silence, as usual your line of thinking is well educated. I agree. However, I fear the cloudiness of the issue will serve as open season for unscrupulous folks who may manipulate within that vagueness, as my wise friend smelly_cat (chuckle) said.

(PS Smelly_cat, just laughing at the way that sounded! Where DID you get your name?!)

If the thinking in this country comes anywhere close to thinking this sort of behavior is even in the neighborhood as okay, ..... well, that's outrageous!!

June 19, 2003
4:40 pm
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All I know is - the law of the land should be.......you do that kind of thing to a child - you get your whacker cut off or the woman gets hers sewn up. That might be deter some of these crimes. Then again, why even bother, if you can do that to a child - why are you living and breathing? Not too keen on paying taxes for their room and board in prison either, as if any of them ever change. They get out and go right and do it again. Rehabilitation and justice for their victims, my ass. But, that is the story we tell ourselves.....has nothing to do with - the facts.

June 19, 2003
8:17 pm
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Hey Sixfoot,

OFF TOPIC: Yeah 'tis a funny name! I got it from Phoebe on Friends. She sings this song... "Smelly cat, smelly cat, what are they feeding you... smelly cat, smelly cat, it's not your fault". I'll betcha can download it from WinMX or Kazaa.

June 19, 2003
10:12 pm
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It's very disturbing, I don't agree with the idea that pedophilia should be normalized. But, are all murderers classified as ill? (Some are I know, but I don't think all are.) There isn't a mental illness called "murderophilia" or something, that I know of. Yet murder is still illegal, and probably will remain so for the foreseeable future. Would sexual abuse of children also fall under the same category, whether it is "normalized" or not? Disturbing trend though... Would this honestly pass?

Wouldn't it stop an abuser from using illness as a defense, and hold that person accountable, as Silence suggests?

Just musing...

June 19, 2003
10:27 pm
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Sounds like a rare file. You won't find anything but popular music on Kazaa. And enjoy the magical queue program that is WinMX

June 19, 2003
10:40 pm
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I guess we'll just have to sit back and watch what twist this takes. One thing I always notice in things like this is there is that path that it "could" take...people believe that's what is going to happen, wanting to think the best, it's forgotten, laws are passed and then lo and behold, it went stage left and everyone goes OMG!

Unfortunately down through time, in many cultures, it's been no big deal to have sex with children. Unfortunately, the age in which our children here in the states become of "age" in real time is getting earlier and earlier. You look at a 12 yr. old girl these days and you think you are seeing an 18 yr. old. Now how does that happen? What are the steps that lead up to this in a society?

A very good article brings out some good points about what happens when this happens...

http://www.frc.org/get/fp00gc.cfm

And I watch reports on T.V. in the last few months about kids and I do mean "kids" that have their own soft porn sites that their parents or single parent, (often the mother) allow their daughter to put these cute little pictures out there on the web of her in all these provocative scenes/clothes/poses and basically sell these pictures and/or videos for a price and see nothing wrong with it. Even the fact that these little girls can be - tracked down to where they live via the net seems to not affect them. But, it's just a way to make money, not unlike how we talk about other countries that prostitute their children in order to make a few bucks, too. How are we any different?
It's just real disturbing....

Things that get in under the carpet aren't always going to look so bad. They are going to have an angle that covers the real agenda. Hey, okay, I'm a bit suspicious and like I said - we shall see. I hope for the best, I really do.

I've listened to the Nambla people before and to hear them talk - having sex with children is just a very natural thing, and no it's not an illness, it's just a sexual preference. It's not that I'm scared it won't be considered an illness...I'm afraid of that other path...those little stepping stones where something is just eased into being. It's the slow slide that concerns me.

June 19, 2003
11:01 pm
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Ladeska, where have you been ? I got a ticket for hearing this stuff,and excellerating to the news on the DR. Laura show about 3/99. I didn't read much of your post, but they wanted to add it to the dsm IV. I should have told the CHP before he started writing.Amazing huh!

June 19, 2003
11:05 pm
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Somehow I think that the kids who are having the sex with adults wouldn't say that it's natural or normal... I'd love to see the actual data from the folks in that article who claim that the kids find it a happy memory. Bullshit.

June 20, 2003
8:49 am
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I don't know, Molly. Been to busy doing my thang! Hard to keep up when so much of this crap is going on, ya know?

It's just age old, guys...and it just breaks my heart. I guess I expected more from us, from mankind (sigh)....but this one thing, this one right to do this to kids just keeps popping up everywhere, in every culture and we never really grow past it. And here where we're supposed to be the most civilized country on earth - we just do it in a more veiled and sneaky way.

When I look at that nasty little "power" thing and what it brings with it, you see things like this. Pedophile rings are being exposed all over the globe right now and guess what - it's men in high places that are doing it. It's like it's a delicacy, a symbol of "arriving" at the penacle of power if you can do this to children. Sort of like the "best wine in the house" to be served to you.

Wow, and doesn't that just make someone "all that"? But when I think about it and look at the women who have been abused by people like this as children, the pattern is always the same. They take immense pleasure in having this kind of sick control over someone so innocent and so full of life. It's almost like they hate what they cannot have so bad that they torture anything that embodies it. Pervert and twist what is normal and turn it into something dark. Children are the "perfect prey". Them having a voice is so very hard.

I personally don't see this as a mental illness. I see it as a flat out choice. I don't think it can be cured either. We have enough examples of that one when you put them in prison, let them out and they can't wait until they do it again.
What to do with these people then? I can only come up with one solution, lock them up and never let them out or look at it like the real murder it certainly is. There's more than one way to kill someone...and calling it premeditated is an understatement. It's all some people eat, sleep and breathe. I guess it really feeds that predator instinct, is like a game that hypes them up. What can I destroy in someone today?

But if this gets twisted around to the thing of - it's just a normal sexual preference kind of thing, look out. Get a few won cases on the books in the courtroom and there you go.

It's that old "blurring of the lines" technique that is so insidious and so twisted, always looking for a way in that we have to be aware of. That's the nature of anything that goes wrong in a society, it has a thread of seemingly good in it and dares you to really question because the front cover flying "seems" reasonable...seems to be following another path. But you kinda have to be real careful what you let in the front door behind that. Things are often very disguised.

It's very ugly to really look at this, to wonder what anyone would get out of hurting children in this way. What in the hell would it feed in someone? I don't think I really want to know the answer to that question.

I just look inside our own courtrooms now and go.....why......would anyone who can clearly see what a child is going through here - put that same child back into the care of the parent who did it and believe the most absurd lies and cover story? Why would we just slap people on the wrist for this? What is in our very nature that keeps us from protecting our own children? We're much more concerned about tax breaks or what makes us look good.

I guess for me to simply say "I don't understand" is just where it all leaves me. I had no idea when I left my home life that this had been rampant in mankind since the beginning of time and that we keep on trying to make it possible, saying we are "trying to educate ourselves", trying to do this and that we are just NOW beginning to really understand all this. Oh BULLSHIT!!! We've always known what's up, okay? I just don't swallow that garbage anymore. People say to me, I just didn't know what the signs were and I go - Really? Since when do we not know the primal indications that a child is being violated. You can freaking smell it on them for crying outloud! We're perceptive about so many other damned things, why are we supposedly so stupid when it comes to this kind of thing? Nope, don't buy it anymore. People know plenty, they just deny that they do and that is the one thing I really have a very hard time with. That thing in us that turns the other way and has much knowledge of what's going on. That turns something in me that just about brings me to my knees.

June 20, 2003
8:23 pm
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My daughter was sexually abused by are father, the thought that this may be accepted as an illness and people like him will be left free to do it again and again makes me sick.
What happen to some people being simply evil?
I mean if someone is very good and helpful and nice we do not call it an illness, so way do we treat murderers, etc as being ill and not just evil?
I don’ t believe in all that crap that he or she and a troubled childhood, a lot of us did and we do not all turn bad.
It seams to me like a lot of excuses for unforgivable behaviour.

June 20, 2003
10:19 pm
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I know, huh? It's just all twisted around. I'm so sorry about your daughter, OneDay....I hope she's gotten help. And I agree, people like this are just flat evil. I can't figure out why we can't just come to that conclusion and dance around it like we do. I guess it has to happen to you for you to "get it", ya know?

We carry this thing way too far that "we can change people or rehabilitate them". At what cost do we keep exploring that avenue of unreason? Some people are just gone. They are pure predators and most will tell you, you let me out of prison and I'll go right and do it again.

I think some crimes are even worse than murder, especially when their victims die a little bit every day.

June 20, 2003
10:51 pm
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Again. I'm not sure if this applies to boys as well as girls. I'm not excusing anything that these people do. But one of my better memories of childhood was when I was 8, a teenage girl exposed herself to me. It didn't get physical. But I got to see everything that was forbidden to a boy my age. I don't think harshly about her now. I sometimes wonder why she did it. But I don't think I was traumatized in any way from it. then again, she didn't really molest me. I don't know what this says... but that's what I have to contribute.

June 21, 2003
9:46 am
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"If pedophilia is deemed normal by psychiatrists, then how can it remain illegal?" Nicolosi asked. "It will be a tough fight to prove in the courts that it should still be against the law." Excuse me??? Since when do psychologists or psychiatrists have any say in what's legal? Or in what's immoral? They can do what they want, as far as I'm concerned - go ahead and classify pediphila as "normal"; as long as it remains immoral and illegal, who cares? Psychiatry and psychology have no place in our courts - and that's what we need to fix. I used to know when the first legal defense of insanity took place - sometime in the 1800s (I think). If anyone could tell me, I'd appreciate it. It's all gone downhill after that. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Who cares if someone was mentally ill? Andrea Yates is a perfect example. She killed her five children. She did something evil. Continue to study her, but hold her accountable. But NOW has made her the poster child of mental illness. People who molest children are evil. Debate about what happens in other cultures simply tickles our ears and makes for interesting conversation - but that's it. Keep this crap out of our judicial system.

June 21, 2003
1:48 pm
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Toad...AMEN, AMEN and AMEN!!!! I like the primitive way of doing things. You catch someone doing that to a child, you shoot them, end of story. No debate about the inner working of their brain or what facility to send them to so we can study them, try and rehabilitate them or whatever. You did something unspeakable and there are no second chances. End of story.

But....I'm biased over here guys. Please forgive me. I lived with someone like this who tortured the hell out of me and because he decided to find God, (which he really didn't, but I've never seen a psychopath who did, doesn't mean the tree didn't fall in the forest, I just wasn't around to hear it) and all of a sudden POOF! the man is a celebrity in town! Funny thing though, he never did say one thing to me personally about what he did....which would go against the whole claim to being "changed", wouldn't ya think? I mean if it were me, I'd be mopping up the floor with my tears and begging this person for forgiveness and quite honestly would probably throw myself off the nearest bridge.

But.......he did start preaching to me though about how I need to do this and that. Of course, he just changed disguises and continued to do what he does best - evil.

Society however, those around them, walk off patting themselves on the back thinking they have just witnessed a miracle. I beg to differ. What the just witnessed was - a good con job.

Reading Dr. Robert Hare's book "Without Conscience" can be an eye popper. We don't study psychopaths as much as - they study us. We can classify them as whatever and they just wiggle free in the end and go right back out and do it again, laughing at our stupidity. That's where our intelligence has brought - us.

Not sure it's necessary to really understand the inner workings of such evil, as much as it is very necessary that you meet it just consequences.

It's always been a mystery to me why we want to study and heal people who are truly void and absolutely dark and yet, we hardly raise, much less jump over the bar, of taking care of the victims or making sure this person doesn't ever do it again. I dunno, just kinda irritates me somehow.

Silence.......that wasn't about her molesting you. It was kids exploring their sexuality, discovering themselves. Big difference in that and pedophilia.

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