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What to do now??
December 19, 2003
10:06 pm
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Hermione
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I'm dealing with my husband pushing the property settlement through - we have been separated for less than 3 months - it all seems more than fair but I am yet to have a lawyer friend check it out. He will not speak to me directly until this is finalised - he says he would then be happy to 'pull it apart' as much as I need to ( he means getting to the bottom of why we didn't work out ) - he coupled all this information with the name 'sweetie' - its left me feeling unsure - how could there be any motive attached to this other than his need for security? I don't want to be sucked in but I am feeling like I am softening - I can hear him trying, giving clear boundaries, and offering me what I need - but is it a carrot that he is dangling such that he can whisk it all away again?
I hate this!!!!!!!!
H
After all I've been through with this guy - I wanted to ring him and tell that I love him? - how would I ever learn the skills to exist within the relationship? I have it all here in black and white - his inability to be honest even with himself - does this mean I am considering learning how to deal with his behaviours rather than condemn him for them? Doesn't settling the property mean he is trying to finalise our separation? - then why is he calling me 'sweetie' again!

December 20, 2003
2:00 am
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Zinnie
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He is calling you "sweetie" to get his own way. Great way of undermining anything you may want. That way, you might actually just sign off on what he wants... instead of having your lawyer look at the paper work.

Z.

December 20, 2003
3:53 am
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Hermione
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Hi Zinnie - this is what I thought and I intend to take as long as I need to check that everything is OK - legally - I don't trust him - I have no reason to - but its like he's offering me some sort of hope for discussion or atleast working stuff out beyond the legal stuff (again very controlling - I'll only do this if you'll do that)- I think I was doing better when I was just able to hate him for what he did - now I'm getting all confused again - I read your post about your husband and to be honest - it sounded a lot like my husband - I have realised that to accept all that he is would mean learning to accept all the good stuff and stand outside all the childish behaviours that send me in circles - I just don't know if I'm up to it - or if I could even subject myself to it all again - its like I want to say to him - look ,I would love to be with you but I don't think I could do it - I'm just not up to it - too much of a challenge.
All this going on in my head when the steps we are going through are about being separate.
I'm feeling pretty low - I went back in - to test how I would feel - I feel like crap again and I wasn't before so I guess I just have to wake up to myself and see things as they actually are. It still hurts.
H

December 20, 2003
8:26 am
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Zinnie
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Hi H,

You wrote:

- I read your post about your husband and to be honest - it sounded a lot like my husband - I have realised that to accept all that he is would mean learning to accept all the good stuff and stand outside all the childish behaviours that send me in circles

Where did I post that about my husband? He has been the person in my life that has taught me the most about not falling for peoples games. With him, what you see is what you get.

Love,

Zinnie

December 20, 2003
4:55 pm
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Hermione
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Sorry to confuse you Zinnie - I meant all the good stuff! My husband is an incredibly good man which is why his actions have been so confusing and why I missed all the 'red flags' along the way - I can't find the thread - but you wrote about how your husband is caring for you whilst you are ill, how he brings you what you need whilst you are on the computer etc., is patient and kind, loving and caring - your post opened my eyes again to all my husbands wonderful qualities - he truely strives to be a 'good' man and to do what he thinks is 'right' - this is why it is all so hard - and confusing and disappointing. He has never been violent, doesn't drink or do drugs - to me he was the 'ultimate' man - which is why I married him - very sensitive with a strong feminine side but also able to come to the fore when his manly qualities were required. He cared for me and the family when I was ill, did work around the house and the list goes on....so you can understand why when he left and said that it was me who had the problem that needed fixing - I accepted this and went and had myself checked out - I checked out OK and on further investigation with the counselor we had both been to - she was able to point out some things about my husband that I could not see - that he had major issues about safety, that he constantly spoke in the third person, that he could not get in touch with his own feelings - these are not major crimes - or even really bad personality traits but the fact that he refuses to 'see' or even try to understand has left me in nowhere land - regardless of the documentation re: my mental health etc. - he is still out there believeing that I am ill - it is his only protection from looking at himself - he is looking at all the good stuff about himself and refuses to address the parts of him that made life so difficult for me - I was becoming sick within the relationship - it was a power issue - he needed me to be needing him for him to feel OK ( codependence - I think)- when I acted independently he would face terrible insecurity and rather than discuss it would act out like a child to get his needs met - for me to keep in line with what he could handle - I was constantly encouraging him just to speak his needs openly rather than sending me in circles trying to figure it all out - so exhausting. Its such a mess Zinnie - I have to let this wonderful man go - I can not ignore his actions in leaving which were heartless and cruel - I know he was running scared but to me that is not an excuse - esp. when it affected my child as well. There may be hope for us - but it would mean a long period of waiting on my behalf, waiting for him to acknowledge and then deal with his 'stuff' - then finding a way for us to co-exist without falling into old patterns - it would take incredible amounts of energy/trust from myself to be on guard for my own wellness all the time - and at this point he hasn't even begun to accept his part in all this. I'm sorry if I upset you by comparing my husband to yours - I didn't mean for it to come across that way - and to look at the whole picture - you are right there really is no comparison!
Hugs to you, Zinnie

December 20, 2003
6:23 pm
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Zinnie
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Hi H.,

You wrote:

"that he had major issues about safety, that he constantly spoke in the third person, that he could not get in touch with his own feelings"

What do you mean here? What does your counselor say about these issues.

Additionally, do you think that when you began taking steps to be independent, he felt threatened?

Or is there another reason that I get in the back of my mind, and I don't want to hurt you... so let me know if you really want an opinion on this.

Love,

Zinnie

December 20, 2003
11:38 pm
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Hermione
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Hi Zinnie

I'm interested to read your perspective....I'm bracing myself...
H

My counselor said that from the moment she met my husband – “he was mostly concerned with telling her that she could do nothing for him - that he knew it all - done it all etc. (in the nicest possible way) - he tried to establish control over her and only wanted to concentrate on 'me' - it was always about me - never about him - and at the times when our counseling headed in that direction - he wouldn't have it – he would turn everything around.

He has issues with his own safety in respect to childhood sexual abuse - we are both survivors - he got it into his head that I was going to accuse him of molesting my son - ( I offered him sworn written statements to state the opposite but he would not accept them) I feel that this stems from when he was a child - his mother caught him with another boy - and rather than seeing him as the victim - she saw him as the perpetrator - threatened to call the police and then never mentioned it again. ( he has never been open with his mother about the abuse that occurred - he wants to protect her) This was only one occasion of abuse in his life – there were many ( within the extended family).

I understand how he came to these conclusions with me as I had to overcome my own issues within my marriage - entrusting him with my son whilst feeling unsure if he had infact dealt with his own abuse ( he had told me that he had but over time it became obvious that he hadn’t) - I had never been in this situation before and it was coupled with my son's first year at school and developmental stuff kept coming up that I found confronting - I sought counseling for these issues and put strategies in place that helped me - I got over it - but my husband never did. My biggest concern was the fact that my husband had never confronted or outed the abuse within his family and I was expected to put my son into situations that I did not consider safe ( having contact with known abusers – me saying no to family stuff made it difficult for him to explain)- I had to deal with one of his abusers attending our wedding - I did this for my husband because he didn't want to deal with the 'WHY'S?'- so I put strategies in place to protect all the children there. It ruined my day and I'm sure my husband had to put his feelings away - as he does everytime he gets to see his family. ( hence the next bit....)

The counselor suggests that my husband disassociates - which is like - he can't get in touch with his own feelings (too scary to acknowledge them - he has to put them away) - it is easier/safer to say ‘"Roger" (not his real name) feels this’ or ‘so "Roger" gets to feel like….’ - apparently when a person is doing this they are out of touch with themselves.

Out of touch with his feelings eg. I would say - when you said that you sounded angry - are you angry at me for doing/saying this/that? No I'm not angry... then to the counselor... did I sound angry when I said that? Counselor - well actually you did sound angry...do you know how you are feeling? How would you describe it? He would sit there for a long period of time and eventually say – I don’t know – but I’m not angry (said again in an angry tone)

It was a very complicated relationship - he could no longer live his life with his head in the sand - issues were arising all the time. I guess because I had chosen to tackle my issues head on ( outing my abuse and dealing with the consequences) - it was threatening to him - he blames me for it all coming up - but I guess I just represented the freedom one can get from dealing with abuse in a different way - no longer fearful of it being exposed. I never expected him to walk the same path as me but I also didn't expect him to lose trust in me either.

I hope you are having one of the not so bad days Zinnie, I know that it takes incredible will power to just get up everyday - I truly appreciate your input and I am really interested in what you have to say,
hugs to you,H

December 20, 2003
11:42 pm
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Hermione
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Hi Zinnie

I'm interested to read your perspective....I'm bracing myself...
H

My counselor said that from the moment she met my husband – “he was mostly concerned with telling her that she could do nothing for him - that he knew it all - done it all etc. (in the nicest possible way) - he tried to establish control over her and only wanted to concentrate on 'me' - it was always about me - never about him - and at the times when our counseling headed in that direction - he wouldn't have it – he would turn everything around.

He has issues with his own safety in respect to childhood sexual abuse - we are both survivors - he got it into his head that I was going to accuse him of molesting my son - ( I offered him sworn written statements to state the opposite but he would not accept them) I feel that this stems from when he was a child - his mother caught him with another boy - and rather than seeing him as the victim - she saw him as the perpetrator - threatened to call the police and then never mentioned it again. ( he has never been open with his mother about the abuse that occurred - he wants to protect her) This was only one occasion of abuse in his life – there were many ( within the extended family).

I understand how he came to these conclusions with me as I had to overcome my own issues within my marriage - entrusting him with my son whilst feeling unsure if he had infact dealt with his own abuse ( he had told me that he had but over time it became obvious that he hadn’t) - I had never been in this situation before and it was coupled with my son's first year at school and developmental stuff kept coming up that I found confronting - I sought counseling for these issues and put strategies in place that helped me - I got over it - but my husband never did. My biggest concern was the fact that my husband had never confronted or outed the abuse within his family and I was expected to put my son into situations that I did not consider safe ( having contact with known abusers – me saying no to family stuff made it difficult for him to explain)- I had to deal with one of his abusers attending our wedding - I did this for my husband because he didn't want to deal with the 'WHY'S?'- so I put strategies in place to protect all the children there. It ruined my day and I'm sure my husband had to put his feelings away - as he does everytime he gets to see his family. ( hence the next bit....)

The counselor suggests that my husband disassociates - which is like - he can't get in touch with his own feelings (too scary to acknowledge them - he has to put them away) - it is easier/safer to say ‘"Roger" (not his real name) feels this’ or ‘so "Roger" gets to feel like….’ - apparently when a person is doing this they are out of touch with themselves.

Out of touch with his feelings eg. I would say - when you said that you sounded angry - are you angry at me for doing/saying this/that? No I'm not angry... then to the counselor... did I sound angry when I said that? Counselor - well actually you did sound angry...do you know how you are feeling? How would you describe it? He would sit there for a long period of time and eventually say – I don’t know – but I’m not angry (said again in an angry tone)

It was a very complicated relationship - he could no longer live his life with his head in the sand - issues were arising all the time. I guess because I had chosen to tackle my issues head on ( outing my abuse and dealing with the consequences) - it was threatening to him - he blames me for it all coming up - but I guess I just represented the freedom one can get from dealing with abuse in a different way - no longer fearful of it being exposed. I never expected him to walk the same path as me but I also didn't expect him to lose trust in me either.

I hope you are having one of the not so bad days Zinnie, I know that it takes incredible will power to just get up everyday - I truly appreciate your input and I am really interested in what you have to say,
hugs to you,H

December 20, 2003
11:42 pm
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Hermione
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Hi Zinnie

I'm interested to read your perspective....I'm bracing myself...
H

My counselor said that from the moment she met my husband – “he was mostly concerned with telling her that she could do nothing for him - that he knew it all - done it all etc. (in the nicest possible way) - he tried to establish control over her and only wanted to concentrate on 'me' - it was always about me - never about him - and at the times when our counseling headed in that direction - he wouldn't have it – he would turn everything around.

He has issues with his own safety in respect to childhood sexual abuse - we are both survivors - he got it into his head that I was going to accuse him of molesting my son - ( I offered him sworn written statements to state the opposite but he would not accept them) I feel that this stems from when he was a child - his mother caught him with another boy - and rather than seeing him as the victim - she saw him as the perpetrator - threatened to call the police and then never mentioned it again. ( he has never been open with his mother about the abuse that occurred - he wants to protect her) This was only one occasion of abuse in his life – there were many ( within the extended family).

I understand how he came to these conclusions with me as I had to overcome my own issues within my marriage - entrusting him with my son whilst feeling unsure if he had infact dealt with his own abuse ( he had told me that he had but over time it became obvious that he hadn’t) - I had never been in this situation before and it was coupled with my son's first year at school and developmental stuff kept coming up that I found confronting - I sought counseling for these issues and put strategies in place that helped me - I got over it - but my husband never did. My biggest concern was the fact that my husband had never confronted or outed the abuse within his family and I was expected to put my son into situations that I did not consider safe ( having contact with known abusers – me saying no to family stuff made it difficult for him to explain)- I had to deal with one of his abusers attending our wedding - I did this for my husband because he didn't want to deal with the 'WHY'S?'- so I put strategies in place to protect all the children there. It ruined my day and I'm sure my husband had to put his feelings away - as he does everytime he gets to see his family. ( hence the next bit....)

The counselor suggests that my husband disassociates - which is like - he can't get in touch with his own feelings (too scary to acknowledge them - he has to put them away) - it is easier/safer to say ‘"Roger" (not his real name) feels this’ or ‘so "Roger" gets to feel like….’ - apparently when a person is doing this they are out of touch with themselves.

Out of touch with his feelings eg. I would say - when you said that you sounded angry - are you angry at me for doing/saying this/that? No I'm not angry... then to the counselor... did I sound angry when I said that? Counselor - well actually you did sound angry...do you know how you are feeling? How would you describe it? He would sit there for a long period of time and eventually say – I don’t know – but I’m not angry (said again in an angry tone)

It was a very complicated relationship - he could no longer live his life with his head in the sand - issues were arising all the time. I guess because I had chosen to tackle my issues head on ( outing my abuse and dealing with the consequences) - it was threatening to him - he blames me for it all coming up - but I guess I just represented the freedom one can get from dealing with abuse in a different way - no longer fearful of it being exposed. I never expected him to walk the same path as me but I also didn't expect him to lose trust in me either.

I hope you are having one of the not so bad days Zinnie, I know that it takes incredible will power to just get up everyday - I truly appreciate your input and I am really interested in what you have to say,
hugs to you,H

December 21, 2003
12:05 am
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Zinnie
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Hi H.,

Well here we go.

You describe him as being very helpful until he is confronted. I come from a family of men like that. My Dad's side of the family, the men suffer from the biggest sense of "machismo" ever recorded.

When you were describing the way your husband acted, being very loving and giving at times, but then with holding, blaming, shifting things and turning them around the way he does, sent up the big red flags to me of an affair.

My entire family, I feel lives with their heads in the sand, especially the men. They do these things, and then turn it around and blame their wives, and they think everyone is buying the story. I'm not, did not then, and will not now.

That was something I was wondering if you had thought of with your husband.

I'm not sure if you know the full story and how I came here. If you want, you can look up "Biggest Mistake of my Life" - that was my original thread.

When I first started helping my cousin, you should have heard the tales he would embroider about the type of husband he was. Giving, loving, and ever so caring. When his wife had surgery, he stayed home and her Mother was so shocked because he would carry her from room to room, and bathe her, and even shaved her legs. Did he really do any of this? Doubtful, since I don't think this man can tell the truth about anything including his name.

He told me about how he went to counseling, and then was ordered to go to family counseling by the Base Commander (he was in the military), and how they went, but his wife "flaked out" any time they started getting to close to what HER real problems were. Sound familiar?

Now for the real story. I found the counseling report he was so worried about. He lied to me. It is almost the exact opposite of what he told me. Not only that, but in this report he ADMITS to sexually molesting his younger sister.

Well, then one time he and I were talking on the phone, and I asked him flat out - when you get out of prison what are your plans? He proceeds to tell me that he knew a woman that he used to work with who was going to buy him a ranch, and a motor cycle, and stuff like that. At the same time, he has been talking about how faithful of a husband he was, and how good he was to his wife (both of them), and such a good Christian man. Now let me ask you this? If he was such a good Christian man, and so loving and attentive, why would he even know of a woman who was going to do all of these things for him? To me, he obviously was fooling around... or he could have been lying about that too. Who knows.

All I know is that when the men in my family start with their story's and trying to turn things around like what your husband is doing to you, it generally means one thing. They have some thing or some one going on the side.

As for him not confronting his abusers, but expecting not only you to, but then putting children in harms way. Sorry, there is no excuse for that.

That is the other major issue I'm having with my family. They are all saying "well, can you believe Zinnie stood up for a child molester?" Well, guess what? Zinnie didn't know this man was a child molester. Yet, these people knew this about this man, and not only did they continue to go around him, they let him take care of their kids. Now what kind of sense is that?

From what you are describing, he was loving and caring - as long as you did what he wanted you to do. If you rock the boat, he got angry and disassociated - which is dangerous. Addtionally, putting kids in harms way because he does not want to confront an abuser. Wrong.

I had another cousin (this one on my Mom's side) attempt to molest me when I was about 13 or 14. I NEVER EVER EVER want to see or hear from him again. He married and had his own kids. His son died accidently a few years ago - he fell into the family swimming pool and hit his head and drowned. I'm sorry that happened, and I pray that he did not suffer. But, did I send this man a card? No. Did I ever let him around my kids? No. If I saw him lying in the middle of the street dead, I would back my car up and run him over a few extra times to make sure it was done.

Now, in reference to my husband. He is a good man, and we have a good solid marriage. He has his days - he is having one today. He was the Range Master for a competition shoot, and came home tired, sore and not feeling well. Cranky bugger when he wants to be. I finally got him off to bed... so, now hopefully I can finish some stuff up.

But with him, he will confront things head on. He is the person who taught me the most how to do so because that is how he deals with things. I have also learned a great deal from him of what to let go. Because sometimes in the big scheme of things - is it really worth it?

Anyway... those are my thoughts. I hope I have not hurt or offended you, but it sounds like he is playing too many games, and like I have told Vegas over her ordeal, you are so above that, and deserve so much more.

Love,

Zinnie

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