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What is the defining line between NPD & BPD?
September 1, 2006
9:22 pm
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Thanks especially to you Strong. I think I know that you are a pastor in the prisons?? not sure though. I find your genuine words of wisdom a breath of fresh air, sanity, patience, and love.

I too work as a counselor and there fore, in a manner of disposition, feel that I can set myself up to be too accepting at times of dysfunctional behaviour. Its about acceptance. I somehow feel that if I connect strongly enough with someones good side that somehow it will come out even more. What the heck is that aout I ask?

As a therapist/counselor in the mental health and addictions field for twenty five years, I have diagnosed my ex with BPD, N tendencies, overlaid with sociopathology. Boy I sure can pick them can't I??

Anyway BPD encompasses many different sub categories with certain defining characteristics or definitions for each one. More often than not a list is provided with 15 to 20 characteristics provided and then goes on to say pay attention if a certain amout persist. There are also often questionaires included on the more reputable and free informational sites to see how many characteristics are presenting and the percentage for probable validity. I pursue this though with the hope and love that I will also learn more about myself through the process.

Wow ... thanks for being there and listening

September 2, 2006
8:13 am
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Ras -

If you feel led in your heart to continue praying for this man, then keep praying. I still pray for my BPD/N ex. Miracles do, still, happen. If you don't pray for him, who will?

Little -

Didn't realize you had a ex-BPD BF, also. My ex was diagnosed as BP with N overlapping and sociopathic tendencies, to boot.

I have read that these people frequently attach themselves to those off us in the care-taking professions: therapists, ministers, nurses, etc. Would be intersting to find out how true that is, eh? I am, indeed, a chaplain...an ordained minister. My ex turned to God because of my influence and began therapy with an awesome psychologist who is also a Christian & prayed for him, as much as he worked with him.

I saw great improvement in the ex during those months, Finally, he pulled away, returned to old lifestyle of hitting the bars every night and turned on me completely. I believe the darkness in/on him hated the light within me. So, it made sense that he would sever me, want me back, abandon me again, want me back, rage at me, then want me back..

I just reached a point where I could not take the raging and the abandonment and cruelty anymore. It was breaking my spirit and hurting my health.

So, now I keep my distance (2-1/2 months now of No Contact), avoiding his nightspots, etc. But I continue to pray for him. Have been tempted to send him a book that would help, but then reconsidered. His hope for recovery has to take place between himself and God. Not with me in the middle.

Hugs to you both.

- Strong

September 2, 2006
10:29 am
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Thanks Strong for being ... I'm not sure if you are here or there. Just joking.

Last night at 1:30 AM my phone rang and when I picked it up ... nothing. I knew it was him so simply said hello a few times and then hung up. Again this morning the same type of call at 7:30. I suppose he wants to disturb my sleep or something. I now will screen all callsto put a stop to this behaviour.

I will continue to pray for him yet more importantly for you and all the goodness you bring. Yes a shining light, that's who you are.

September 2, 2006
11:25 am
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Little -

Thank you for the kind and encouraging remarks. Never thought of myself as a "shining light." Been referred to in much worse terms by alot of people (grin).

But I do thank you. You have lifted me up today and I think I needed that very much.

Gratefully,

Strong

September 2, 2006
12:06 pm
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It is amazing. I feel like I am reading about the person I have been involved with for over the last four years. The screwing up holidays, the mental cruelty, a recovering(?) addict who goes to at least one AA meeting a day, etc., came from a family with a very cold and cruel father. He sees a psychiatrist weekly and has been diagnosed bipolar. This man is an extremely well-educated person. He has a Doc. of Divinity from a very well known school, has had his own parish, been a college instructor and college chaplin. When we first started going together, I thought, wow, he must really have it together. When the rages and maltreatment started, I thought it had to be me, my fault because look at all he has done, accomplished, etc. We got back together 10 weeks ago after a nine month separation and for the first two months, he was great. He would even thank me for putting up with his moods, inconsistancies, etc. I was so supportive, told him he was doing great, gave him tons of encouragement, etc. He made a big deal about my birthday, we were going to counseling together... He actually appeared so happy. I know for a fact the counselor told him I am a person 'worth trying to keep around.' Now he no longer wants to go to counseling with me, I am a monster again because I expected him to spend some, any, time with me in the last two weeks and he has to 'rethink' our relationship. He had wanted again an exclusive relationship with me. Now I am now the reason for his problems (that he had for many years before we even met), I am trying to control him, believes I should have no expectations or needs in the relationship, etc. I know I am not perfect, I make mistakes but I apologize. He had told me when we got back together, he had done a lot of introspection and that he was responsible for 90% of the problems we had experienced. I have no idea if that is true but, right before I broke it off last time, I had asked him to go to counseling with me and he refused, like he is refusing now, again.
During our previous time together, a year and a half ago, he was in an accident and his car was totaled. I strongly encouraged him to buy an inexpensive, compact car. He went out and bought a car he really couldn't afford and, I found out later, actually told people that I told him I would no longer go out with him unless he bought the fancy car. No one who knows me would ever believe that, no one. When we got back together and I brought this up, he couldn't figure out why I was upset. I brought this up in front of the counselor and I insisted he tell people the truth. He says he did but I wonder. We are both nearing retirement. I will be fine and have planned my finances accordingly my entire life. He has not and says he will always have to work and he had to deplete a significant amount of money he had saved to get himself out of the car debt since the payments he took on were more than he could afford.
I have noticed that many of us who get involved with these types of people are in 'helping' professions. I have a graduate degree and am a retired social worker. I believe I love him but I can't deny I feel sorry for him, for the situations he has caused himself to be in. So I have taken maltreatment from him I know I should not have. Today is the first day I have not had an email from him in 10 weeks. I will not contact him trying to help, I know to want to is sick on my part, to want to be there and help him when he treats me poorly.
Went to my first CODA meeting two days ago and it helped a lot. But it is torture, every minute I want to call him and go back under his terms, losing any shred of personal dignity I might have. An exhusband of 32 years abandonded me 5 years ago very suddenly after he went to live with a woman he'd been having an affair with that I'd known nothing about. So abandonment is a very big issue with me.

Thank you for the chance to write about my feelings and fears.

September 2, 2006
3:19 pm
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StronginHim77
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Rosie -

It is possible that this man's "abandoning" behavior has re-triggered the terrible sense of loss and rejection that you experienced at the hands of your cruel ex-husband. Betrayal is serious. The pain of this man's abuse is stirring up all that old, unhealed pain from the loss of your exhusband?

You need to be very very kind to yourself and comfort yourself. Surround yourself with compassionate people who understand that you are GRIEVING. This man is opening up all those old wounds. You are tempted to stay with him because it probably feels so "familiar." (That is what I was doing with my abusive ex).

What were your parents like? And what was your relationship like with both of them?

- Strong

September 2, 2006
5:36 pm
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Light some candels, listen to some good music, treat yourself to whatever YOU want for supper.

I will not contact my ex! Let me say that again ... I will not contact my ex.

As I was reading your thread Rosie I was drawn to "I'm not perfect, I've made mistakes but I apologize"

I think that is the difference of you,I, and Stronginhim is that we take responsibility for our behaviour and its effect on others.

My ex asked me, at the beginning of our dating, since I was talking about value systems what did I value about all. I quickly said, "Above all do no harm"

Recently we were driving along and he espoused the same value. Without a heartbeat I added "Including ourselves"

It added to my riddle.

Thanks for listening

September 2, 2006
9:18 pm
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StronginHim77
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Little -

I always enjoy the "gems" you post.

Thanks!

- Strong

September 3, 2006
12:31 am
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Thank you littlespirit and Strong.

Strong, I answered you on the No Contact thread.

September 4, 2006
10:56 am
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Ras -

I am not sure if CODA meetings would be beneficial for someone with a personality disorder. (Although they certainly would help his/her codependent partner). Sounds like this man needs an extended amount of therapy and possible medical support, as well.

If he is truly BPD, he would have quite a few years of serious work ahead of him, in order to "recover." Few BP's make it because they run, once the therapy begins addressing their deeper issues. They are shame-based, as well as fear-based, so such psychiatric digging is -- for them -- fearful and shaming criticism and condemnation. They basically LOATHE themselves, so therapy makes them feel even worse.

Not a very hopeful situation. I believe that prayer (miraculous intervention of some sort) is their only, true answer.

- StrongInHim

September 4, 2006
5:08 pm
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Strong -

I think my exbf is Mostly NPB. He might have some traits of BPD but in my opinion, tho I am not psychiatrist, but as an educated person, he is motly NPD as well as the Charmer Abuser Personlity. They really fit his personality very well.

The woman I was minstering to in my church would be an ideal BPD.

When I read Melody's book, I found out many codep traits that belong to my exbf and his present gf.

For instance, despite his outwardly strong, selfish, independent character; he is very insecure, needy, fearful man, no wonder he ended up living with his present gf not with me, coz I'm too strong, bossy and independent for him.

I remember once while we were dating, he told that I was a proud person. Thus, he can't handle me. Whereas his present gf is reall "ragdoll/dooramt", who has no boundaries whatsoever. She lets him control her just like a remote control & every thing is on his terms, preference and conditions.

Even over the week-ends, he goes out without her and she does not seem to mind despite all the free catering & sheltering she's providing him with.

So, I honestly believe that they both can benefit from those Coda meetings in that church across their place.

In addition, considering my ex-bf, I think, since he's hard-working Type 'A' personality, he is prone to stress and depression. It could be that he struggled with burn-out on his last job in that pharmaceutical company. I am pretty sure he was taking some meds. I figure/sense that was the reason why he lost his job. Hardwork + Promotion led to ~Burnout/stress/depression + jobloss. This is my own analysis, I hope I am right in this!

Most type 'A' personality are prone to stress and depression. They are ambitious, hardworking, goal-oriented people. I used to be like that, a real workaholic, but now, I learned to love and take care of myself & thus I call myself a "recovered workaholic." LOL

My prayer now is that he will realize than this trial was HP talking to him asking him to learn to love himself and that work/$$$$ is not everything in life, in the same way HP spoke with me several years ago and I heeded His voice. I also pray that HP will bring so many good blessings out of this trial/test!

Please keep him in your prayers, he is a good guy who has been disoriented. I don't even know if he has siblings, he is not very forthcoming person about his family of origin!

Thanks Strong!~Ras~

September 4, 2006
5:45 pm
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As for his present gf - she really has a problem with her self-esteem, she definitely has very low self-esteem.

No decent woman would accept having bf & life like that: jobless, cold, uncommunicative, unemotionl, no emotional intimacy, controlling, manipulative, lack of empathy. In addition, he moved into her place when he lost his job about 2 years and a few months ago. So far, she is the only breadwinner.

I just wonder how long women of low self-esteem can put I with such low-quality of life???

Can someone answer me???

September 4, 2006
8:58 pm
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Ras...

If he is "jobless, cold, uncommunicative, unemotional, no emotional intimacy, controlling, manipulative and lacking empathy," why don't you shake the dust off your feet and move on?

He is SO damaged and unlikely to change in your lifetime, my friend.

- Strong

September 5, 2006
3:15 pm
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Ras -

My other concern - If he has not worked in over 2 years, how can he be considered "hardworking?" I could see being out of work for a few weeks, even a couple of months....but YEARS? That doesn't sound right. Something is rotten in Denmark here.

- Strong

September 5, 2006
7:39 pm
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Strong - If you re-read my previous posts on this thread, I wrote about his stress, burnout and depresion which led to his professional depression & then resulted in his jobloss. Yes, I believe he is Very hardworking man!!!

In addition, I indicated also that he has NO Diploma and he is over 40 years old which makes it difficult for him to find a job easily.

The problem is: the more he stays jobless, the more it will be considered as something NEGATIVE against him in the job market - AND the more his self-esteem will go deeper and deeper into the pit.

I know when I lost my job unfairly once, my self-esteem became: minus zero, what! It even vanished, I had no self-esteem whatsoever and mind you I'm a woman, how much more when it's the man??? it is HELL!!!

I pray that he would find a job even if it's menial one and would enroll in college & take one course per semester, in this way he can pay for his courses and keep it light and does not feel overwhelmed.

Believe me Strong he is a good kid, he is just screwed up due to his abusive childhood. Since I come from similar abusive background as well, I can't help but empathize with folks like that!

I am not defending him b/c I am biased to him. I just feel for people, I have compassion and concern toward others not just him and I am presently praying for a number of girlfriends and male friends who are suffering from depression and low self-esteem.

I went thru lots of pain, agonies and
sufferings and I know what is it like and I know very well that HP put these people in my way to minister to them and give them wisdom, help, books...etc.

If you & others here have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to convey them to me!

With love, Ras~

September 6, 2006
9:09 am
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Ras -

What do you see in the future for yourself and this man? (Best possible scenario, vs. worst case scenario?) The comment which grabbed my attention was your "proposal" that he get some kind of job --- anything he could land --- to prevent further spiralling into depression and pick up one class per semester, etc. That sounds alot like codependent "fixing" of another person's life. Troubled me a bit. Kind of like a red flag for my OWN self...the sort of "thinking" which I used to do, before I became aware of my own codependency.

Did you tell this man any of these things? Or make any of these suggestions for getting his life in order?
- Strong

September 6, 2006
6:53 pm
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Hi,Ras. Do you still have contact / conversations with this man who means so much to you? And how well do you know his gf? Is or was she a close friend of yours?

I'm a little confused by your posts. You refer to him as your ex-bf, but admit that you only went out together for a very short ime, & he didn't return your calls. Yet you seem to know a lot about his private life with his new girlfriend. So am I right in assuming that you do know them both very well, & speak with them often ... from the way you analyse their relationship?

I'd try to help if I understood the situation better. Wishing you the very best in your own life! Blessings - Gazelle.

September 6, 2006
7:37 pm
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Strong -

I did not have any expectation of this man in any sort, no am I dreaming of him as my future hubby.

However, as I spiritual person, I keep him in my prayers - whether he is the right man for me or not. The bottom line is I am an emotional, comapssionate person & I can't help stay indifferent to people problem.

HP put this man in my way, then there must be a REASON for this, not necessarily romantic one. All I can do for him, his gf and other friends is KEEP them in my prayers.

"Did you tell this man any of these things? Or make any of these suggestions for getting his life in order?"

There is NO communication between this man and me whatsoever. I don't talk with man who has/lives with gf. Period!

September 6, 2006
8:18 pm
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Gazelle - Hi darling! Haven't seen you for a long time, I've been missing you & wondering where you were!

No Gazelle I don't have any contact with his man since, as far as I know, he's moved into his gf's place ever since he lost his job.

But since he lives in my area, sometimes we happen to come across each other. He tries to avoid me, I think the reason for this is b/c he resents me. He feels that I am more healthy than him and esp right now he is Very depressed and filled with low self-esteem.

"I'm a little confused by your posts. You refer to him as your ex-bf, but admit that you only went out together for a very short ime, & he didn't return your calls. Yet you seem to know a lot about his private life with his new girlfriend. So am I right in assuming that you do know them both very well, & speak with them often ... from the way you analyse their relationship?"

The reason I know about his private life is b/c during our short dating period we knew so many things about each other. In addition, when he lost his job and moved into this new gf' place, I found out his phone # from his previous roommates and I used to call him thinking that this gf - who is his gf - is his roommate. He always lived with roommates: both men and women, so I couldn't know and thought that she was just a his new roommate. Till one day, I had a computer exam and needed some help, so I called him & asked him about some computer books, he said yes and brought me a computer book over to my place without coming upstairs to my place. On that day, I asked him about his life and she told me that that roommate girl is his gf. I was stunned when he told me that and decided to cut this man out of my life.

As for his new gf: NO I don't know her at all. I only saw her once in the park with him and as soon as he saw me, he started kissing her and stroking her hair ONLY to tease me and make me jealous. Otherwise, he spends the week-ends without her and she does not mind!!!

The reason I know so many things about his life and his new gf is b/c I know his personality as a controlling man and when I used to call him at this place and his gf would answer me, I could figure from her voice tone that she was like someone "controlled, rigid", plus all the traits of classical codeps people like being too sweet, suppressing her feelings & wants.

For instance, if it were me in her place and a woman called him, I would be angry and I would ask that woman who she was and the reason why she was calling him/bf. Imagine, Gazelle, she wouldn't mind me when I would call her house and speak with her bf. The reason for this is: She is someone who has NO BOUNDARIES whatsoever and does NOT get angry at all.

Reading Melody's book made me a real Expert and savvy about codep people that's the reason I know a lot and can even figure and imagine their life together.

Controlling manipulative men like my exbf look for women who are: very weak, subservient, submissive, have NO boundaries at all, very codep, do not love themselves, have very low self-esteem, unhealthy, come from dysfunctional ex-relationship & families.

It is NOT difficult to figure out these things, right!?

What do you think Gazelle? Any comments, help! Thanks for the blessings, wishing you the same!~Ras~

September 7, 2006
8:36 pm
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Gazelle - Have your read my post yet? Any comments I welcome. Please don't be embarrassed or hesitant. I am an honest person and accept any wise counsel!

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