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What is the defining line between NPD & BPD?
August 30, 2006
6:31 pm
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Rasputin
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Both NPD & BPD are mental illnesses. The NPD tends to be egocentric and arrogant. The BPD tends to...scream, yell & lie.

However, if NPD are egocentric what is the mark most defining with BPD which would enable us to identify someone as being BPD?

Can someone be both NPD & BPD?

Although I studied both of them at college, I am unable to discern...esp. people with BPD.

Thanks!~Ras~

August 30, 2006
6:40 pm
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lollipop3
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Hi Ras,

By BPD...are you referring to to Bi-Polar Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder?

Either way....

Borderline Personality have an extreme fear of abandonment and will generally lash out at others or become self-destructive if the face of real or perceived abandonment.

Bi-Polar would be characterized by extreme highs (mania) and lows (depression).

You can research these or any other mental illness by googling the "Diagnositic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition" or "DSM IV".

The DSM IV is used by mental heath professionals to diagnose mental illness. It gives complete criteria, descriptions, symptoms, prevalence and differential diagnoses for anything considered a mental illness.

I hope this helped.

Lolli

August 30, 2006
6:48 pm
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southgoingzax
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hey, sorry ras, to hijack this thread, but lolli,

where have you been? I have missed reading your posts...sorry if it's weird, as I don't post much to you, but I was wondering how you were doing. Also, you mentioned new school and career - do you mind sharing what you are doing? I am turning 31 this year and realized I am in the WRONG profession. I want to get out and do something profitable that I enjoy, but I'm not sure where to start - I'd love to hear your story about changing perspectives, on your own thread or mine, if you get a chance.

Ras - really sorry! I just saw lolli's name pop up, wnated to ask her a few questions,

zax

August 30, 2006
7:06 pm
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lollipop3
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Hi Zax,

I'm doing fine, thank you for asking. If you'd like, I'd be happy to see you over on the "hey Lolli" thread (so we don't hijack this one) and I'll answer any questions you have. Sound good?

See you there.

Sorry (((Ras)))

Lolli

August 30, 2006
8:17 pm
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Rasputin
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Thanks Lolli for your reply. Well evidently I meant the Borderline Personality Disorder.

Now the question is:

Can someone be both NPD & BPD?

StronginHim, and many others here, have their Ex as BPD. Can you elaborate & expand on this subject please? What are the main traits of BPD and can one be both NPD & BPD at the same time?

August 30, 2006
8:49 pm
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StronginHim77
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Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) and Narcissism (N) are both B-Cluster personality disorders. (The other B-Cluster disorder is the sociopath.) It is very common to see "overlapping" of the B-cluster disorders. For example, a borderline could have many "N" traits, or demonstrate alot of the criteria for being a sociopath, etc. Many doctors believe there is no such thing as a PURE borderline or a pure narcissist because of this overlapping frequency.

My ex-fiance was, indeed, a BPD. According to his psychologist, he had N AND sociopathic overlapping, as well as alcoholism.

The essential difference between BPD and N? Both are FEAR-BASED disorders but with an essential difference. The borderline FEARS losing their SO (significant other). They have a deep-seated fear of being abandoned. This fear drives them to highly controlling behavior, jealousy, possessiveness, inordinate need for attention. They will also frequently aabandon the SO when they "perceive" that the SO is abandoning them in some manner (such as, spending time with someone besides them, taking a job outside the home, etc.) A simple "thank you" to a waiter can trigger their intense fears of being abandoned and trigger (yet another) episode of borderline rage.

A narcissist is also fear-driven, but the narcissist fears being perceived as anything less than PERFECT. In short, if a SO penetrates their facade of self-imposed perfection and detects any flaws, the N will abandon (or literally destroy) that SO because they fear anyone seeing the "real" person behind his carefully constructed facade.

So, both are fear-based, but from differing perspectives. Both personality disorders, however, will "devalue & discard" their partners with amazing predictability. Both are incapable of emotional intimacy, compassion, empathy or support.

Having read a ton of stuff on the subject, I would be glad to answer any other questions you might have or recommend books which might help you learn more on this subject.

- Strong

August 30, 2006
9:18 pm
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lollipop3
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Very nicely said Strong.

August 31, 2006
12:32 am
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Longstreet
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Strong, we have been there and done that! Thank God for getting away from that madness. I broke up w/my BPD girlfriend a year ago this Labor Day weekend. I still think about her every day and miss her terribly. Then I pull out my "Walking on Eggshells" book and reread all the things I wrote during our endless arguments. A year later, I'm lonely and sad, but not a nervous, fearful wreck I was a year ago under her constant blaming, shaming and yelling. Freedom is a blessing. I had to go through a lot of pain to get to where I am, but I had a good counselor and good friends like you to help.

August 31, 2006
12:53 am
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the person I deal with I thougth for sure was BPD, but now I think he is sociopathic. It takes a while sometimes for the photograph to develop in the dark room. as you observe more, u see more characteristic traits. What really tipped me off was his complete lack of remorse and conscience and his uncanny ability to convince me of anything. I had never seen anything like it, in all my years in a psych related field. It was a stunning academy award winning performance, even when I LOST all trust in him, I fell for it. If you have ever seen a truly autistic child (by the old strict definitions), you will never forget the behaviors - lack of connection, self stimulation, poor communication. I have seen it. It is rare. When I saw a sociopath, it was astonashing. By the way, I am not the only person who believes this...two clinical psychs do. We could be wrong. It is just a hypothesis. I think BPDs are not as adept at living the lie. They are too busy emoting.
Sociopaths also can have explosive, impuslive, recklass behavior, but are more scaringly cunning. You want total disruption and fear, or you want to be roped in and then have total fear and disruption? That is how I see it. Feel free to comment. I am not the expert.

August 31, 2006
7:23 am
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Thanks Strong to the vaulable info about both personalities. Very scary and sad info tho.

I know mostly NPD and I totally agree 100% that they are INcapable of any empathy, support, emotional intimacy and compassion.

I also believe that Histrionic PD falls into Cluster 'B' personality/The Dramatic Emtional Ones either.

Another Question:

If NPD main trait is: egocentric + Arrogant.

What is BPD's main trait that helps us identify/recognize him as BPD right away?

Thanks!

August 31, 2006
9:40 am
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StronginHim77
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I can spot a BPD at 100 yards now.

1. They have a HISTORY of broken, chaotic relationships.

2. They will "idealize" their chosen new partner to a ridiculous degree.

3. They frequently have drinking/eating problems.

4. They are highly critical/suspicious of others...sort of like an "us versus them" mentality.

5. Within about a month, the mask will fall, the BP's inner tension will rise and you will receive your first dose of BP rage (with all the projection, blaming and splitting which accompanies it).

6. Because they fear losing you, they will show great remorse and beg your forgiveness...the FIRST time. Trust me that the remorse and forgiveness begging WILL wear off very quickly...usually by their 2ne or 3rd episode.

7. If you want the raging cycle to stop, you have to initiate "No Contact." There is NO OTHER WAY.

August 31, 2006
9:49 am
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NPD's are egocentric, but so are all the B-cluster disorders. BPD's and sociopaths are egocentric, as well. Their world DOES revolve exclusively around THEM: their needs, their wants, their preferences, their choices, their demands. Meet those needs, wants, preferences, choices and demands or find yourself discarded very quickly.

The Devaluation phase is handled differently by N's and BP's. In my experience, the devaluation cycle hit very quickly (the same night upon which I got married), whereas the BP would devalue me one day, then idealize me the next. (This is called "splitting.") And this went on for months and months with my ex-BPD. My status with him was based on my last (most recent) interaction with him. If he felt it was good, then I was a precious, wonderful saint in his book...till the next "offense." Then, I quickly got demoted to the category of "evil witch." There was no "gray" area. I was either a saint or a witch.

Since dumping me in June, I believe my ex-BPD has regretted that decision. However, I have blocked him from re-entering my life (phone, email, etc. is all blocked. I do not go to the same nightspots. I avoid his "friends," etc.) I see him online which tells me he no longer has me "blocked." That means he would like to reestablish contact, but I won't do it. I have been free for 2-1/2 months and I'm not going back to BP HELL. N's and BP's literally suck the life right out of you with their lies, their inreachable demands and their insatiable need for attention, admiration and slave-like devotion with NO RETURN to us, the poor slobs providing their NS.

OK. Enough rambling.

- Strong

August 31, 2006
1:17 pm
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Thanks so much Strong for the ample info & literature you provided me with.

Well, what I found out is that I know many people who are NPD who possess BPD traits as well.

I was ministering to a lady in my church. At the beginning, she was a nurturer, warm, affirming and praising me all the time. Despite this, I did not feel comfortable to her. When she gave me her phone #, I took a risk and gave her mine. I know I have to take chances in this.

Then, as soon as I gave her a brand new copy of the book I used for my healing as a give away and invited her to my place for a visit and nice supper....All of a sudden, she turned on me very abusively, started devaluing me verbally, emotionally and psychologically. Now, when she seems me at church, she is cold, formal and I usually am the one who greets her. Now I know this girl is most probably BPD or at least mentally-ill.

The other man I know, an exbf, I feel that he is both NPD & now when I read your posts, I believe he does have BPD as well. Too bad for him! I know he's a good guy, IF he takes the trouble to start his own healing & get rid of FEAR, IMAGINED FEAR. Will he do that??? All I can do for him is keep him in my daily prayers, I can't stalk or call him, after all he lives at his gf's place and I DON'T like to call a man who lives at/with his gf's place.

Strong - Is there any chance of reconcialion between you and ex Hubby, IFFFFFFFF he proves to be faithful and genuine in his healing???

August 31, 2006
1:55 pm
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By the way, when I studied at college, we were told that most BPD are bi-polar. Also, they are either in fusion or distance. Either hyperactive people or lethargic as their name suggests, the limite personality between what is normal and not normal.

in addition, I found this info on the internet: The majority of BPD are females, about 75%.

August 31, 2006
1:56 pm
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Ras -

Do you mean, would I reconcile with my ex-BPD fiance? The one who discarded me 2-1/2 months ago? IF he proved "faithful and genuine in his healing?"

Good question. I do not believe it is possible for him to heal in the natural realm. It would take a miracle of "deliverance" from the dark entities which drive him, the fear, rage, shame, hatred of women, suspiciousness, lack of trust, tension, etc. I really believe it would take a miracle from God to free him from this stuff. Do I believe in deliverance? Yes. Do I believe in miracles? Yes. Do I pray for this man? Yes. But I would be afraid to take him back into my life. Probably, the ministers involved in his recovery and deliverance would have to sit down with me, face-to-face and testify to me of his deliverance and wholeness. And even then, it would take time.

Did I genuinely love him? Yes. Probably always will, but not enough to let the dark stuff in him destroy me anymore.

Thanks for asking, though. I have asked myself the same question many times. There is my truthful answer.

- Strong

August 31, 2006
2:03 pm
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Ras -

Alot of what I read about BPD's says they are dysphoric (the opposite of "euphoric"), so they are tense, anxious, depressed, irritable and edgy, most of the time. That builds up, until they have their "rage explosion," followed by a couple days of quiet, then maybe one "good" day, then the tension begins to build again. My ex had a 12-14 day rage cycle. (I actually journaled it for nearly a year.) You could set your watch by his explosions. My son would warn me when they were due to hit, as we charted them on our kitchen calendar with coded letters. (We never told the ex about it, of course, but the chart was ALWAYS accurate.) T = tension building; R = rage explosion, S = silent withdrawal, and so on. The cycle accelerated, toward the end of our relationship. I think becoming publicly, openly engaged to be married triggered alot of panic and fear in him. (They always fear enmeshment, as much as they fear being abandoned.) Ultimately, he left me, before I could leave him. WHICH MAKES NO SENSE TO ANYONE, EXCEPT A BP.

August 31, 2006
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Nearly forgot to add, he also sabotaged each and every Holiday. The only exception was HIS birthday. He was always genial and euphoric on HIS big night out. (And I always made a big deal out of celebrating it...dinner out, fancy gifts, balloons delivered to his house, etc.). But he managed to ruin all our family holidays, including my birthday, Mother's Day and even the day we got engaged. (turned on me unexpectedly and viciously on the way home from our romantic engagement dinner...I will never forgot how shocked and devastated I was from that episode...and it was only "shades of worse to come.").

August 31, 2006
2:17 pm
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I am so sorry (((Strong))) you had to endure ALL this. You really don't deserve any of that with your kindness and generosity of helping every one here.

My heart goes out to you sweetheart! Thanks for the feedback and inputs!

(((Hugs & Prayers)))

August 31, 2006
3:04 pm
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Hugs to you, too, Ras. You have a good heart.

August 31, 2006
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Hugs to you, too, Ras. You have a good heart.

August 31, 2006
5:56 pm
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Wow Stong,
I read your words and it feels as though you have taken them right from my mouth. I swear we could be talking about the same man. I admire you so much for being so strong and keeping away from your abuser. The more I read about your expiriences the more convinced I am that my H does have BPD and the more I believe that I will be free someday soon! Thank you for your wisdom. I know it is a huge help and inspiration to anyone here that may be living with any type of abuser.

August 31, 2006
6:18 pm
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tryin -

I have read alot of your postings on other threads and -- yes -- it does sound as if you have a BP on your hands. I am truly sorry for you. It is a rough way to live (if you can call it "living.)

Although I have days of loneliness or sad memories, my overall feeling (since the breakup) is one of peaceful relief. He was a HORROR to be around and put me through hell. My sons got tired of seeing their mother weep. I grew to dread the contact I did have with him. The phone would ring, I would look at the Caller I.D., see that it was him and my entire body would tense up with dread. I kid you not. I would not relax until AFTER I left his presence and walked into my (safe) home every night. That is a very sad commentary on any relationship.

It was good at first, until the devaluation & discard stuff began. Then it was straight downhill into hell.

I hope you find the happiness you deserve.

- Strong

September 1, 2006
10:35 am
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Ras -

Sorry, I sort of overlooked what you had mentioned about your ex-BF. You say it's possible that he is N with BPD overlapping. That is such a common combination. Did he abandon you? Many of them do, out of their deep fear of enmeshment. (They are as afraid of getting too close to someone, as they are of being abandoned. It creates a terrible "push/pull" struggle which usually culminates in the N/BP abandoning the partner with no warning or explanation.)

Please share what you experienced. I do not know if they can ever be free of the terrible fear that oppresses them and drives all their thoughts and actions. Again, it would take a miracle of deliverance? Most therapists hold little hope for BP's, unless they are motivated enough to stay in therapy for YEARS and do the work to recover.

- Strong

September 1, 2006
8:38 pm
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Strong -

Sigh, this man & I dated in 2003 for a short period, during which he invited me out for my birthday to a beautiful exotic restraurant and bought me a small chocolate cake which I kept in my fridge till we were both back to my place & we had coffee, cake and conversation till midnite. During that nite, he did not even touch me at all, out of respect for me coz he knew that I was a spiritual person. In fact it was I, who kissed him on both cheeks on that nite and put my hand on his back - in bortherly innocent way - to thank him for his lovely gift. He is a reserved man, BTW.

All this to SHOW you that this man, even tho, he is emotionally dysfunctional, did not even touch me, kiss me or take advantage of me, even tho we were both all alone at my place. All this increased my love and respect toward him!

Our relationship remained merely and toatally Platonic!

During that short dating period, he would only call me occasionally, many times he wouldn't even return my calls. At that time, he used to live with 2 roomates, a guy and a girl, right across the street of my place and he was working unhappily in a company even tho he got promoted.

Depsite our short courting period, I learned a lot about this man. I learned that he came from dysfunctional family, he was rarely hugged by his parents and at that point there was no communication between his parents and him and they didn't even care about him. He also told me that his parents were unhappily married and the only reason they stayed together coz they were appearance-conscious people.

Following that year, we once came acorss each other and exchanged our news in which I asked him about his job and he mentioned that he did not work any more. I felt sorry for him & told him that I had been keeping him in my prayers since he told me that he hated his job. On that day, he was really looking so depressed and sad!

I found out later from some resource that due to his jobloss, he moved out from his presnet place into a gf's place and ever since then, as far as I know he's been living with this gf and I also believe that till this moment, he is still jobless, the poor guy.

His relationship with his gf is very toxic, codep and unhealthy. He is controlling, esp now since he's jobless, & she is reall "doormat" who worships him & loves him unconditionally. I also believe that he is using her financially, emotionally, sexually, and even energetically and physically since he is getting free services from her: shelter, food, sex, laundry, tenderness for his broken ego etc. Worse than that, he has no diploma and he is over 40 which are all negative factors toward helping him find a job easily and even increases his depression.

A gf of mine told me that this relationship between them will not last for long. Do you think this is true? They've been together for maybe 2 years or over.

Right now, I am planning to purchase a book about a man who comes from an abusive background/family who turned out to become a murderer due to his childhood past. However, ever since he turned his life to HP, he was totally transformed into a warm, caring and kind, authentic man able to build healthy emotional intimacy with others.

Right now I am praying to HP if this man, my ex-bf is open to change & wants to really become a good healthy guy, that we would see each other & I would give him that book so that he can be inspired and realize that HE is NOT ALONE in his miseries and pain and that CHANGE is POSSIBlE!

Strong - Do you think there is hope and healing & happiness with this man? Should I continue to pray for him or should I re-direct my prayers to someone else?

Awaiting your perspective on this sujbect! Thanks hun!

September 1, 2006
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The bottom line, Strong, is: I honestly feel that this guy/ my ex-bf is basically - A GOOD GUY with issues/baggage, just like so many of us who are getting healthier here.

Ironically, there are CODA meetings taking place in the church's basement right across from where he & his gf live. I pray that someone will tell them about those CODA meeting, so that they both can start attending those meetings & start their own Healing!!!!

Will my prayers ever be heard!!!!

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