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WD: Does this count as abuse?
December 15, 2003
12:22 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi guys. Opinion poll. I have my own opinion, but I'm interesting in hearing from abused as well as not-abused on this one. Let me know which you are.

Someone slapped me while I was getting out of the shower. I slipped and hurt myself--did that person really hurt me or was it an accident?

Okay, say somebody was throwing things at me and I decided to retreat. I was dodging things when I get hit in the back by a flying object. I stumbled and fell down the stairs and got banged up pretty bad. She said it was my own fault for being clumsy. Did she hurt me or was I just clumsy?

I guess it's about "accidents" that happen during "minor" or "moderate" violence. Is it always the hitter's fault? I tend to think it is, but I am obviously prejudiced on the subject.

December 15, 2003
12:31 pm
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mj
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I wouldn't want to be slapped getting out of the shower. If I fell because it startled me, then I would be upset that someone had slapped me and that I fell because of the reaction to getting slapped. I think that some people like slapping but if you don't, then its ok to tell someone that you are not uncomfortable with being slapped. I try not to blame.

If someone was throwing things at me, then I would leave to a safe place. Unfortunately, you state that you dodged the object that hit you and lost your balance because of it and fell down the stairs. I would not want anyone throwing anything at me. I think that clumsy or not...is not the issue.

Why do you wonder? Are you questioning yourself?

Hugs Worried Dad.

December 15, 2003
1:14 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Yeah, I guess I am questioning myself. Soul-searching. The episode on the stairs actually hurt me more than any of the times she actually punched me. I told her that it would serve her right if I called the police (second time)--she said they would just laugh at me for being a clumsy ass. In a way I agreed with her at the time--I mean what could I say "She tried to kill me with a bottle of soap?"

She also told me that if I did we would be through as a couple and that she would take my son where I could never find him. I kept my end of the bargain and didn't call the cops. She did not keep her side of the bargain.

The first time I had threatened to call the police,to stop her from hitting me (she wouldn't stop,and wouldn't stop and wouldn't stop) I said "I don't deserve this treatment!" and she said "Well that's too bad, because that's what you are going to get from now on!" Then "Bam!" I thought she was speaking metaphorically. I was wrong.

When she threatened to run away with our boy, I thought it was just an idle threat, too.

So I guess I feel kind of stupid for not calling the police. On the other hand, maybe they would have just laughed at me.

December 15, 2003
1:24 pm
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eve
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Worried dad,

I think that putting the blame for these accidents on somebody is not really helpful. The whole situation sounds just like something where people get hurt, innocent or not. And this situation wasn't your fault any more than the tiles or the stairs are to blame, just for being what/where they were.

I think it's more like 'shit happens', bad luck. But it's sure a weird and mean twist of things to say that it was your fault.

December 15, 2003
1:33 pm
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Worried_Dad
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I guess I don't really believe that such things are true "accidents." I mean, I wouldn't have taken the falls if I wasn't in the process of being assaulted. Of course, she probably didn't mean to hurt me as badly as she did. Physically, that is. Psychologically, no doubt she was trying to destroy me.

Eve and MJ--were you battered?

December 15, 2003
1:37 pm
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bigdumbguy
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WD, it sounds like you've got yourself into something really bad here. I don't know the whole story, but have you two considered getting therapy together? Have you really talked about the problems with her and the abusive. It worries me that she said she would take your son and leave so you'd never find him.

December 15, 2003
1:44 pm
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mj
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I have never been battered by a husband....My first marriage, my husband that I was separated at the time from, came to my house, locked our daughters in their room and was going to rape me, but I was able to get him to go out to his truck for some music, and lock his butt out. That was the last time I considered ever being married to him and filed for divorce promptly.

I was beaten as a child by my mother constantly. Beaten physically and emotionally. I knew that I didn't want to be there in that place ever again as an adult.

My 3rd husband slammed a door in my face, and I divorced him promptly.

So battered....as a child, but I think that term is more for spousal abuse isn't it?

I believe strongly that no one, ever needs to be physically hurt by another human being. If my present husband raised a hand, or physically endangered me...I would never look back.

I am sorry she took your son. Hugs to you Worried Dad. I can't even imagine the pain you feel with your loss. I hope you can find him and have her removed permanently from her influence. Life is Tough some days. I want you to know that I do care and I am so sorry for the abuse you have suffered.

December 15, 2003
1:47 pm
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bigdumbguy
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mj, if I may ask... how old are you and how many times now have you been married? Do you have children?

December 15, 2003
1:58 pm
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eve
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I was never battered.

Why is it important for you if other people would see this as abuse? Legally, you'd propably have a hard time proving *abuse*. Emotionally, to me it would feel very much like abuse, especially when this happens in an abusive relationship. Not really the falling down, but the being told that it was my fault, and being ridiculed. I think that, when you live in an abusive relationship, you can't realy draw a line. Each and everything can feel like abuse, because you have been trained by experience to react whith fear.

December 15, 2003
1:59 pm
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mj
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I am 46...been married 4 times and have 2 daughters,& 5 grandchildren.

December 15, 2003
2:03 pm
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Worried Dad, she is abusive to you. No matter how or when. Falling in the shower, down the stairs, etc. all of this is due to her actions. If you ahd been left alone in the shower, at the top of the stairs... you would not likely have hurt yourself worse than you did. Being abused messes with our minds. Hang in there...

December 15, 2003
2:09 pm
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mj
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I think ridicule is a form of abuse...

How does one separate physical abuse and emotional abuse...It all hurts about the same.

December 15, 2003
2:50 pm
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Eve,

Why do I care what people think? My counselor has advised me to do some soul-searching and prepare a list of questions for her. One of those is "this isn't really my fault is it?"

What is it called when one person is deeply in love, bending over backward to make their partner happy, while the second partner is PRETENDING to be in love, when in fact they HATE their partner's guts and are planning to do them harm...

For sure it was an abusive relationship. Actually, it was in every way a battering relationship. Just because she didn't beat me every day doesn't make it any less battering. Just because she wasn't tough enough to put me in the hospital doesn't mean it did not hurt. And just because I'm a man and she is a woman doesn't make it right.

As far as "proving" abuse....She did make the mistake of hitting me in front of witnesses a couple of times, and when witnesses were in the next room, etc. And she left marks a few times, which other people saw. (BTW, imagine how humiliating it is to have to walk into a drug store and buy WOMEN'S makeup and lie about why your are getting it "oh yeah it's for my girlfrind, yeah, that's it" when they can see the black eye. Even worse is getting caught in the act of putting on the makeup by my housemate and having to explain that no, I am not a homosexual or a crossdresser--I'm just stupid.

And we did do about a year of incredibly misguided and inneffective counseling after the first episode where I had to threaten to call the cops. They billed us two thousand dollars for that worthless apporach to domestic violence intervention. Hint: NEVER approach it as amenable to couples' counseling! The hitter and the hittee need very different kinds of treatments.

Finally, as far as I'm concerned, concealing a child from a loving parent who did the bulk of the hands-on child care and who is that child's primary attachment figure has got to be one of the most violently abusive acts known to mankind. Both for the left behind parent and also the child.

I just feel so guilty because I did not protect my son. God, it's crushing. I don't know how I can ever forgive myself.

December 15, 2003
2:57 pm
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mj
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Please forgive yourself....right away.
It isn't about you its about her taking him...another abuse.

My father watched my mom abuse us. He did nothing. Years later I asked him how come....He said, he didn't know what to do so he just left.

You are still fighting for your son.
Your son will eventually be old enough to find you on his own. Hopefully you will find him before then. How old is he?

December 15, 2003
3:12 pm
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gingerleigh
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Yes!!! It is abuse, plain and simple. Suppose you had slapped her. Wouldn't that be abuse?

December 15, 2003
4:01 pm
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Hi MJ,

Thanks for the support. My son turned seven years old this July 30th.

He is such a beautiful, sensitive, talented little kid. Real smart and loving. I hope to find him soon.

December 15, 2003
4:20 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Lisset,

You crack me up. Well of course I look great naked--ha ha!

Unfortunately, she slapped me in the face. Always the face.

I asked her not to do that because my neck gets sore real easily when I'm hit. Maybe that's why she did it, I don't know--going for my weak spots. Some people.

December 15, 2003
5:09 pm
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What are you going to do, Worried Dad?

December 15, 2003
5:22 pm
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LA Rosa
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Worried Dad.

You have my sympathy WD.....and for what it is worth, I (abused) agree with you. Although her intent may not have been to cause as much suffering, doesn't escape from the fact that it did. The intent was to harm.

You should be legally entitled to know where you son is, Worried Dad. I would think so.....

Best Wishes,

LA Rosa.

December 15, 2003
5:35 pm
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Artist,

I will locate my boy and will contend for him to have as much time with his father as possible.

I will definitely be pointing out that "D" is a hitter, and have her assessed psychiatrically. And her new boyfriend. And Her mother. The subpoenas will fall like rain.

Maybe too much time has passed for me to get physical custody, but at least I will have the satisfaction of pointing out in public that normal, healthy, decent people do are not coercive in sexual relationships, they do not lie, cheat, and steal. Normal, healthy, decent people do not make a habit of assaulting their lovers, they do not threaten to hurt children, they do not withold medical care from children, they do not use corporal punishment on infants and toddlers, and they definitely do NOT conceal children from their parents.

You wouldn't think I would have to argue about something like that.

LaRosa, thanks for the support.

December 15, 2003
8:59 pm
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Zinnie
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Worried Dad,

You wonder if it's abuse BECAUSE you had the accidents? Honey, it's abuse because of the acts themselves.

Slapping someone, and throwing a bottle at someones head and hitting them - those acts ALONE are abuse.

What have you done to find your son?

Love,

Zinnie

December 16, 2003
2:47 am
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free
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WD, what sticks out to me like a big red flag is this: after you had these "accidents", it doesn't appear that she wanted to help you or console you or comfort you. My ex monster never did either.

But I bet if for whatever reason you lost it and slapped somebody or threw something at somebody and he/she fell or got hurt you'd be immediately remorseful and would certainly check to see if that person was okay and probably apologize profusely. Abusers aren't like that.

They act remorseful when they realize they might lose you.

Kuz it's all about them.

There must be a way for you to find your son. I know when I was considering running, I was told to forget it. That it never works. People can't hide on this globe anymore. The only way would be to enter a victim-witness protection program where all ties with family, friends, and past are cut off. Even then, there are simply no guarantees.

I wish I had information on how to go about finding somebody. I know I've asked a few times about what you are doing and there hasn't been a response. Once I thought about it, It's like "duh". One doesn't go posting that on a website. She might see you coming. I'm sure you are doing everything you can. And my thoughts and prayers are with you.

And as for whether or not these "accidents" were your fault. What if they were? I mean, let's just assume for a moment that this person who fell in the shower and down the stairs was me. And everybody here agrees it was my fault for falling. I'm clumsy, an idiot, etc. just for the sake of it. And in the moments immediately following......

Would anybody here laugh at me? Would anybody here point at me? Would anybody here make fun of me? Would anybody here humiliate me?

Or would everybody run over to see if I was okay?

Well guest_guest might point and spout off about my self-esteem (just kidding guest, rib-rib)-

Nah. I bet everybody would make sure I was okay. Kuz me getting hurt would be about me.

You getting hurt WD isn't about her. It's about you.

Her abuse isn't about you. It's about her.

I've found in my own soul-searching that there was some kind of role reversal in our minds. I thought I was the perp. He thought he was the victim.

Personally, I think being the perp would be better kuz then I could change things, fix things, save our marriage, find peace and happiness within the relationship-not just for me, but more importantly for him and our kids. How desperately I longed for the power to do that.

That's what made me the victim.

free

December 16, 2003
2:57 am
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Zinnie
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Hi Free,

You posted:

But I bet if for whatever reason you lost it and slapped somebody or threw something at somebody and he/she fell or got hurt you'd be immediately remorseful and would certainly check to see if that person was okay and probably apologize profusely. Abusers aren't like that.

They act remorseful when they realize they might lose you.

Kuz it's all about them.

Excellent point. Let me share.

When I was in my C/A relationship, as I said before intimacy with him was not really intimacy because if it was not painful for me, he did not enjoy it. Several times when there were marks or bleeding he would make comments like "well, if you were not so up tight... ect." Well, that was junk, pure and simple.

Then, here I am with my husband... one day we were carrying in groceries. He thought I was already in the house with the last load that I was carrying in, but I was actually behind him. So, he get's through the front door, and kicks it shut with his foot. The door caught my foot, it got slammed between the door jam, and the door. He was so worried that he had hurt me seriously that I think he apologized for two weeks straight. There was a bruise on my foot sure, but it was an accident pure and simple. He did not mean to do that, any more than the dog when she tripped me walking down the stairs in our yard one day.

But this other man? The only time he ever apologized was when I told him I didn't think it was working out.

Love,

Zinnie

December 16, 2003
10:15 pm
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>> Someone slapped me while I was getting out of the shower. I slipped and hurt myself--did that person really hurt me or was it an accident? << i was abused in childhood. I say it was abuse from the moment she slapped you. Whether you slipped and died or etc, the "abuse or not" question has been answered when she slapped you. Who's fault is it? not a good question. it will be your fault if you continue to live with the person under the same conditions. if they say sorry and start treating you with respect, thats fine, but if they dont do that, you should have nothing to do with them.

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