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WD: Crazymaking
December 19, 2003
11:55 am
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Zinnie
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Free,

You are a big person.

Z.

December 19, 2003
12:18 pm
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Wanttobewell
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Free,, you've been put through so much pain, physical and psychological. I learned from you that sometimes the choices you make may cost you your life. Never again will I ask why women stay with abusers. I'm very glad that you found an attorney who believed you. I talk to my girls constantly about abusers, but what you wrote is what I will be having them read.

You know,,there are just some people who need to be killed!!!

Thank you for this thread. W

December 19, 2003
12:26 pm
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mj
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Lisset, if you read lots of posts all over...these threads, you will discover it is happening to lots of people. I didn't realize how being ignored really hurts ones self esteem.

December 19, 2003
12:35 pm
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Zinnie
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But, it's not necessarily being ignored. People for the most part are selfish - myself included, and we tent to go back to what OUR issue's are. I don't think it's a case of being intentional, but perhaps that day I'm concentrating on what I'm going through that particular day or time.

Also, if people post in anger constantly, or keep making the same mistakes in the same situation over and over and over and over and over again - those are some of my "triggers" and I will shut down and move on. Self preservation?

December 19, 2003
1:35 pm
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Wantobewell

I hope you do let your girls read everything. I mean everything. Zinnie's experience with her daughter is not as uncommon as one may wish to believe. because ya know what, this is the reality of it all. this is what is real. Getting into a marriage is easy. Getting out is possible only if your partner is willing to let you. Especially once kids are involved.

It seems so easy to get out. It appears that there is so much support for a person attempting to leave an abusive relationship. But truth is, victim's are at the bottom of the beurocracy. there are so many who need help, and so little gets to us.

When ya ask for help from a judge, I learned you must have an attorney. Judges hate seeing people in pro-per.

The legal help provided through public assistance is just that: public assistance. These people are overworked, underpaid, and understaffed.

If I had to provide a potential solution to this "domestic violence task force" forming in California (I jsut read about that in the paper the other day) it would be this: When a person is granted an EPO, he/she is called the next day by a private attorney referred by the task force- a no-nonsense, aggressive attorney like the one I happened upon. One that reads between the lines, who would be able to spot the true aggressor so that abusers could not take advantage of this aid (and trust me, they would). People say "oh we don't have the money". Bullshit.

Before there was finally an arrest and charges were filed:

the police been involved umpteen times. Child support services had been involved, prepared a case, presented it half-assed, and of course there was never a judgement. There had been an EPO during our marriage. We had been in front of the judge, oh let's see, 4 times for visitation and support and we were both in pro-per. I was charged with contempt by him and it got dismissed. An attorney was assigned to my oldest daughter to "look out for her best interests." Our file is about 5 inches thick and the obnly thing I've ever filed was for divorce in 1997. So may I ask, what has all this cost the system?

I'd say a helluva lot more than it cost me to hire this attorney- probably about 5 grand when I'm done paying.

I would have been willing to pay back the system. In 1997, if an attorney like the one I had this past year could have represented me, I'd be done paying that 5 grand back by now. And would not have lived in hell for 6 years. And would not have a daughter contemplating suicide. and would not have taken up the police departments time, the courts time and space, for nothing. Because that's what it was. For nothing. the system paid out thousands of dollars. And I never saw a penny or an ounce of support.

Until, I fell upon a competent DV attorney. The legal system is overwhelming to somebody trying to live to the enxt day. Check this out.

He took it on his own to file for all the restraining orders (there's an EPO first, then a TRO, then a Permanent PO), he stopped visitation-asked for supervised-got my kids therapist on the stand and almost got him to breach the confdentiality thing kuz he knows stuff about my ex-he fought and fought. Then(and I don't know how he did this) came to my town and got this case transferred to his town where the DA prosecutes dv seriously, and when the detective in my town was taking too much time, he filed a complaint against him and demanded a report to the prosecutor within a few days and got it! He was violating my PO one day and the police were brushing me off and so I called him and boom, the prosecutor herself is on the phone with me, and then the Sergeant at the police station and all the officers eyes lit up- I guess this has never happened. He couldn't be arrested at this time, but it was close. he hasn't violated it since then. The police were not nice to him on this day and have been very nice to me since then.

This is what a person needs when they are trying to escape. It can't be done alone, I don't care what anybody preaches. I know. Kuz I tried every avenue available to me. Every service offered. Every phone number I could find. But none of these options carry any power against dv.

gettin long winded here.

free

December 19, 2003
2:07 pm
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This just off the press.

I'm so pissed. I'm gonna share because people need to know EXACTLY how much support is there for a victim.,

I have been assured by so many people, even the website for victim witness, that I shall be reimbursed for losses if I cooperate with the prosecution, I just have to file an application.

well, NOT.

I do not recieve financial compensation for time taken off work due to testifying etc. Last year I was at 2 days unpaid leave. I only get 10 per year. I'm out thanks to this trial. Completely out until June. My next paycheck will be 1 day unpaid leave and God help me if I or my youngest gets this flu. those funds are only available if the losses are due to physical disability from the crime. Well shit I don't need that- I have disability insurance.

the witnesses subpoena'd by the prosecution don't get compensation either. One took a day of vacation, the other unpaid leave.

there is not compensation available for all the restraining orders. I had to pay for those. Never mind this man just plead guilty to stalking.

We do, however, get counseling. I have a 35 dollar co-pay, so I guess that is better than nothing, which quite frankly, is what I actually expected.

and they say getting free is a victim's choice kuz there's so much help available. Such bullshit.

free

December 19, 2003
2:30 pm
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Zinnie
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Free,

I know you might be hesitant to tell us, but what state are you in?

The reason many states have adopted the fact that the criminal has to pay a fine, like in my cousins case he was fined $25,000.00 and he HAS to pay it, cannot write it off in bankruptcy - that is what is supposed to be reimbursed to the victim. For days off for trial, counseling, etc.

Check into it.

December 19, 2003
2:51 pm
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Zinnie
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Free...

One other thing, and I know it does not pertain to you directly, but it does to my daughter which is how this came about.

My husband has a Law Degree, and is also a chemical engineer. He keeps his company in compliance legally with Hasmat, EPA, etc.

Anyway... he began a year ago studying for some additional qualifications. Why? To help people like my daughter and you. He is now working with "The Family Place of Dallas" to help those who need strong legal help and cannot afford it.

Z.

December 19, 2003
4:05 pm
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mj
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Hugs dear Lisset, I am sorry that you are in pain.

December 19, 2003
4:09 pm
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arwen
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It is never the victims choice. Never, ever, ever, ever, EVER!!!

The abuser chooses to commit a crime!

If you were driving down the street, and a friend of yours rear-ended you, and then drove away, would it be YOUR fault?

If later, you were driving down that same street and they did it to you again, would it be YOUR fault?

If you changed your route to and from work, and they did it to you again, would it be YOUR fault?

If you got a different car, and they did it to you again, would it be YOUR fault?

If you finally confronted them and said "I've had enough." so they shot you dead, would you be saying "Gee, why did they confront that lunatic?" or would you be saying "I can't believe that lunatic shot someone over a ridiculous confrontation like that..."

Would you choose to live knowing you will get hit vs. leaving knowing you will be killed? Can you even begin to comprehend what it means to answer a question like this if you haven't lived it yourself? And if you have lived it yourself, can you answer it for someone else--whose situation is as unique as your own?

I get so sick and tired of all this blaming the victim bullshit.

If you are asking a victim "Why?", see it as your own red flag and take the time to get as educated about domestic violence as you can. Get educated about it until the only question you ask is "Why do people choose to abuse?"

Arwen

December 19, 2003
4:52 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Arwen,

Amen!

As far as why people choose to abuse....I've said it before, but it bears saying again.

Batterers and other abusers are entitled, manipulative and disrespectful. They hurt people because they have learned that violence is an effective way to express their anger and that coercion is an effective way to get what they want. They abuse because abusiveness is a rewarding relational strategy for them. They abuse because they get away with it.

December 19, 2003
5:00 pm
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Zinnie

I live in California. I"m so po'd right now. i hve been given the name of my ex monster's probation officer as she wants to meet with me after the first of the year. I intend to let her know what I think of this victim witness bullshit. To date I have spoken with two victim witness advocates from the District Attorney's office, and the only compensation for me and the kids is counseling. None for the witnesses as that is only available if they come out of state.

Mind you, mye x monster has to pay restitution to the state. He's been fined, and they get to go after him for court costs etc as far as prosecuting him and he will have to enter into a payment arrangement with the District Attorney's office.

I'm 5 grand in the hole plus unpaid leave plus liquidating assets to get out of this state with the kids for a couple weeks shortly after he was formally charged.

My attorney filed for enforcement of previous child support orders and our Marital termination agreement- he is in arrears a couple thousand. then my attorney tried to fix the child support order which this judge made when he entered my income at about 7 thousand a year more than I make and the judge gave my ex monster 2 exemptions of our three kids. Judgement comes "no modifications to previous order shall be made". WHAT? The previous order was made on faulty numbers! We showed that. It's another example of "you bug me- go away." And it's just bullshit. Losing those two exemptions cost me over half of what he pays in support. In short, he makes about 57k a year, I make about 45k, he has them 23% of the time, and he will be paying a net of about 5 thousand a year to care for three kids. Well that got eaten up by my attorney in filing all those restraing orders and trying to fix the child support boo-boo. As for the arrears, well, I guess tough shit. I married the guy!

I'm just so angry right now.

And Lissett, I'm not ignoring you. Right now I'm involved in my own pity party. I'm just in full blown tantrum mode.

free

December 19, 2003
8:25 pm
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Zinnie
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I am wondering if this is because the basis of all of this began in family court?

Although, it is the employer's choice as to whether or not they are going to pay their employee's who have to testify in a trial, or serve jury duty. Don't forget when you serve jury duty, you get that big $5 - $9 per day. Enough for parking and hamburger from the dollar menu. But, keep in mind that in America, we still have a democratic court and our right and priveledge is having a trial by our peers.

Part of the reason's Judge's do not like to see people represent themselves is it makes their job all the much harder. The reality of the way our system is set up, is that it's the Judge's job to make sure the lawyers follow procedure, the law and jurisprudence of practice. Is it your fault? No, not really and it bothers me that the Judge you had at the time brushed it under the carpet.

You also have to look at it this from this perspective. This man was doing everything he could to threaten and ruin your life. It cost you five thousand dollars to eradicate him. To me, it would be worth the cost, even if I had to liquidate things, or go into hock to pay the attorney. If it got him off of my back, and made him follow the law, I would gladly pay it.

Is it right? No. Is it fair? Not really. But, sometimes there are some things we have to accept for what they are and move on.

At this point he knows he can no longer mess with you. He will also think long and hard before he tries it again - with you anyway.

Sadly, in a few years, it will be his girlfriend that he has now that he will be terrorizing - and she will sitting there thinking to herself "wow, I remember that bitch Free, who really must not have been such a bitch did all the stuff she did."

Z.

December 20, 2003
2:09 pm
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You are very right Zinnie. i would have made these payments and taken these losses if I knew that he would be out of my life.

I am considering taking my child support case to Child Protective Services to handle, before He files another support case. At least that way, I would have some type of representation- I would not be completely alone in dealing with him. They are half-assed, but more than me by myself.

Just thinking about it. It would mean going to court again. Not sure I wanna go to court ever again. But then, if he files, I have to.

free

December 20, 2003
7:05 pm
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Zinnie
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Free,

Let me see if I can find the name of the clinic out there you can go through.

I'm originally from CA, and not long ago a friend of mine (still living there) filed some type of petition that gave her a raise in child support. Apparently it can be done. Now if he contests the new amount, you will have to go back to court, but if I remember right if he is the one contesting the action, he is responsible for the legal bills. Don't hold me to this, I'm going by what some one else told me, and neither that person nor myself are attorney's.

Anyway, she went through some type of clinic. Also, when her ex-husband and his newest "Squeeze of the week" decided not to pay any more because the kids did NOT want to see him, she was able to put a lien on the house. Of course that did not get her money right away, but when they tried refinancing, boy did they get a shock. They could not refinance until he paid her the back support.

Also, here in TX, and I have heard that other states are going with this. If he falls behind on his support and you record it he cannot get a license. For anything. He cannot get a marriage license, he cannot get a driver's license. Nothing.

This guy is a piece of work, I'm glad you are away from him.

Z.

December 20, 2003
8:27 pm
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I think the best thing to do is to jump the gun and re-open my case with Child Support Services through the District Attorney's office. I don't know all the forms, etc to file and quite frankly don't have the desire to learn all about it. I was in court with them once, and I know I will be basically presenting my case. With them behind me, though, perhaps it won't irritate the judge.

What I'm not happy with is the fact that he is getting away with paying less support than was ordered. Not much, but it does add up. And the support that was ordered is based on faulty numbers.

He will contest it because that is what he does best, but my kids have the right to recieve the support to which they are legally entitled. I am the one who provides virtually everything for them, and three kids are expensive.

We are supposed to be assigned to a new judge at the beginning of the year. the judge in our case is moving to criminal courts. Now that one just blows my mind- my ex monster had this judge eating right out of his hand. And he's mild on the criminal scale.

I bowed out from support services when my ex monster's stalking crap was escalating and got my own private attorney because I was just terrified to deal with him in court with weak representation. But now the criminal stuff is over and ex monster is on a tight leash. So he can't get mean anyways.

free

December 20, 2003
8:41 pm
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Hi Free,

You wrote:

"I don't know all the forms, etc to file and quite frankly don't have the desire to learn all about it. I was in court with them once, and I know I will be basically presenting my case."

Do NOT make that mistake. Learn everything you can about the forms, and the procedures you need to go through. Remember, information and knowledge is POWER. You have it now, use it.

As far as the Judge being moved to a criminal court, I can understand what you are saying. The thing that I found interesting, albeit sad, during my cousin's sentencing was the amount of compassion the Judge showed to the people being sentenced.

I don't know, maybe it's just me - but for the most part the people who are criminals are of course very good at manipulation and lies. You would think our Judges would be aware of that. But, it seems like they are not always aware of the fact that these people lie about everything. Maybe just my opinion.

Additonally, if you go in with the attitude of "I don't care about this, and why am I even bothering to show up and learn anything about this process" - you will be the one to suffer. The Judge will figure if you don't care, then why are you wasting the Court's time.

Take control of the situation. That will also show your ex that you mean business. He knows that now, but he is going to try to continue to undermine you in any way he can. Show this scumbag no mercy. Know what you are doing and what you are talking about when you get in there. People like him hone in on any weakness you have.

I know in a way this is not fair, but we all know life is not fair. We have to make our own destiny. Your children have the legal right and entitlement to be supported properly by their Father. You have the right to live a life free of harassment and being able to depend on the fact that you will receive the money you need to raise your children properly.

Z.

December 21, 2003
2:17 am
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Hey Free. I "know" that three kids are expensive. I don't have kids myself, but can do the math, and it gets out of control, and quick. But. Is the turmoil that you go through worth trying to get the money? We all know that the kids are entitled to it, but is it worth the constant battering to your soul? It sucks that it is so hard for you to get the right things to be done. Is there any way to spare yourself the difficulty yet still provide your kids with what they need? Again, I know the father should pay. Should, should, should. Are you able to get along without his payments? Is it something you could let go, considering it payment for a break from this mental anguish you are going through?

Again, so sorry you are having to go through this bulloney. I wish I could press a button and everything would be as it should be.

December 21, 2003
1:59 pm
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Once agin, you are right Zinnie. I do need to learn about all the forms, etc. I think at this point I know the ropes fairly well. the positive about Child Support Services is that they will provide all the forms, file them, file the case, put me on calendar, and serve my ex without me having to pay a dime.

Ginger, I hear what you are saying. What I'm saying is that I'm trying to take control of my life. Ya see, I have never filed anything other than divorce papers and our file is about 5 inches thick. Not exaggerrating here- that's a valid estimate. He will file something again, and at that point I will once again be on the defensive. I'm sick of being on the defense. Right now he is not abiding by the previous court order. Support has been calculated below what he actually ows because of mistakes.

Enough. This is not about me. My kids have the right to recieve the support to which they are legally entitled.

If it was about me, I would probably waive it and move on, as that is a hard habit to break. I waived alimony, retirement and gaive him 80% of all our assets during the divorce, and considered it payment for peace and the opportunity to move on. But there was none. There never will be. And that is just something I'm beginning to accept.

right now, yes, I am making it. I do not need support to be correct to survive.

It's not fair to my kids. Like I said, I am the one who gives them everything, so any less money I get is less money for them. Shoes, clothes, personal items (OMG girls are expensive, sports, cub scouts (OMG every time I turn around), music lessons.

There immediate financial needs are met. But with a combined income of over 100k, my kids deserve to recieve the amount to which they are entitled. It's not fair that his criminal behavior keep me from seeing to it that they recieve it.

I'm sick of being afraid of him Ginger. I'm sick of constantly backing down. I'm sick of doing nothing in the hopes that there will be peace. I'm sick of being too weak and too fragile to do what I believe is right.

Will I succeed? Maybe not on the first try. But one thing I've learned is to never throw in the towel kuz then what happens is out of my control and all of us suffer.

I've thrown in the towel far too many times, for far too long.

this is not about custody or visitation. If I wanted visitation stopped I could do that now because of his guilty plea. It's not about anything criminal. It's about my kids rights, and is a simple child support case.

It can be only as dramatic an full of turmoil as I let it be. I'm not willing to permit that this time. I'm sick of being a pansy-ass mom afraid of fighting for fear of the consequences. The consequences of denial and avoidance are far to great. I'm angry. At myself. and I need to do something about that. I'm going in tomorrow to open a case.

With that said ginger, what do you think? Curious.

free

December 21, 2003
2:10 pm
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Zinnie
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Hi Free,

You did not ask for my opinion, so if you don't want it... don't read... but...

He is and has done this crap to you because he knows he can get away with it. Well, guess what happened to him recently? Uh, he found out you are no longer putting up with his stuff, and now he has a CRIMINAL record. Hope for his sake he never has to change jobs, move, or meet some one with half a brain who will run a criminal back ground check on him before she gives out her phone number.

Fight, and I mean fight. Fight for what is rightfully your childrens take in this life. Honestly, I would go back and fight the property and alimony too. It can be done. Yes, it's expensive, but in doing so again, you are standing up to him. Now, I understand your wanting peace, I really do, but with this man there will never be any peace. The only thing he understands like most chickensh*t cowards is being a bully. What happens the first time some one stands up to them? They run. What happened to him? He did not want to be faced with all that he had done in court, so he took a plea agreement. Like the chicken he is.

You read and know everything you need to before you go into court. You be ready to face him. Keep fighting for what is rightfully your kids, and your's. You put up with this jerk for far too long. As a result, as you yourself have said is to have children on the brink of suicide and not wanting to go on. Why in the hell cut this man a break of any type. He is not deserving of any kind of break, except of the bone type.

He contest stuff because he knows every time he does you are going to back down in the name of "peace" - he does not want to contest anything. Given his choice he would be married to you, girl friends on the side, and doing anything he damned well pleased; including letting his boss and co-workers, his new fiance and his church friends think you are crazy. Prove to them you are not, and fight for what is yours.

Zinnie

p.s. - Can you tell I'm known in my family as the person who will never back down?

December 21, 2003
2:46 pm
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Z

I agree with you- I didn't ask for your opinion kuz I pretty well knew what it was going to be.

I'm not going to go fight for the alimony and property. It's simply not feasible as I'm out of assets and very broke. But I am going to fight every front I can, and child support is one I can fight for with the aid of support services. It won't cost me a dime. On my own, I have to get all the forms, pay to file (280 dollars), pay to have him served. This way, it doesn't cost me a dime and that's good kuz I don't have one to pay.

My perspective on things has changed since the trial. I'm changing. I asked for others opinions partly because I'm curious as to what parts I would share, what parts I would not share. Things are just different now.
Curiously enough.

I'm gonna open a case tomorrow. that decision I've made already.

free

December 21, 2003
6:22 pm
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No problem... opinion with-held!

December 21, 2003
7:08 pm
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Z

I appreciate your opinion and your support. Maybe I needed the affirmation. It's good for me.

free

December 21, 2003
8:18 pm
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Affirmation received, as well as a big hug and a great big sloppy wet kiss from the little red LOUD dog.

Love,

Zinnie

December 23, 2003
5:18 am
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LA Rosa
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It's so good to see you're getting your head around this in such a determined positive manner..... focused and with the courage of your convictions. I know it can't hasn't been easy for you - free - and I hope that you're feeling very proud of yourself right now..... as you really should be.

Even though I have been away from the man who was abusing me - thousands of miles away - a man who was intent in killing my identity - who couldn't have really cared about me at all - at least not in any way that I could understand - I still thought he loved me deep down - I certainly loved who I thought he was. It seems that I have to hold myself back from picking up the phone. It's as crazy as it gets and I know I have to let go of all that should have been - it was all just a dream anyway......that actually turned into a nightmare. What a beautiful dream it was though.
It was really all just crazy - and crazy is crazy is crazy.

Best wishes for you - free - and keep up the good work. LOL

LA Rosa

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