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WD asks for a Referendum: IS there a "We" here?
March 29, 2006
7:28 pm
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exoticflower
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OK, I only read so far (nursing, ballancing coffee and dinner on my lap, cleaning with my arms while I type with my feet--ah the life of exoticmommy), but I am surprised that this is being discussed at all--it seems to me that AAC is very much a community of like minded individuals who seek to acheive similar goals (healing, growth, learning). A community of people who all contribute to a greater idea, notion, etc...that is a 'we'. IMHO.

March 29, 2006
8:01 pm
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smarterone
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CALL ME NAIVE, BUT THERES ALWAYS A TROUBLEMAKER IN THE CROWD.

March 29, 2006
8:12 pm
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gingerleigh
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Hi Smart. Could you clarify what you mean with your last post?

March 29, 2006
10:20 pm
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1lost1
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I am sorry, I read the thread, now I am totally lost!!!

Which is good for me being 1lost1!

I find that a lot of you here are genuine it in wanting to help others as well as yourselves.

I feel that there is a "we" but not in all instances is "we" convenient. Sometimes "we" is a hazard and it confuses some.

Now that I have gone in circles. I bid all you sweet people good night!

1L1

March 30, 2006
10:15 am
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Worried_Dad
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Thanks for checing in supporters of the "we."

Remember I am not asking if
"the website" is a "we."

It's really about is their a discernable normative culture that people identify with and suuport.

March 30, 2006
11:49 am
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kathygy
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WD,

I take acception to your judgements and assumptions about my motives and my communication with desparate.

Also, you really don't know what was going on with desparate. You are only guessing and this may be part of your projection on to desparate.

I said I am willing to take responsiblity for my part in the exchange with desparate but not the whole exchange which you seem to imply that desparte has no responsiblity in the exchange.

There are two people here. I am not responsible for desparate's part. That would be codependent of me.

I base the above on what you said about the exchange where I feel that you are overly harsh on me and tak about desparate as an innocent victim.

"In your next post you invalidated desperate’s way of communicating his desire for more “tact” from you and his perception of the importance of tact. Then you asked him to define tact.

[invalidate is your word. I was not invalidating him at all. My only intention was to try to get him to communicate what 'tact' looks like to him. I have no idea. The fact that he was unable to tell me is his responsibility.

Again, his communication was very indirect. Being indirect and unclear is not good communciation. I think its very important for a person to be able to say 'I feel..I need to hear .... I need ... from you'. This he was not able to do.

Communciation is essential for a healthy relationship. If he could not do it here I strongly suspect he could not do it with his wife.

This may well have been part of the reason his wife pulled away.

Then you criticized the way that he communicated his desire to receive support and lectured him for saying “most people” here need support instead of “I need support.”

[you use the word 'criticize'. That is your judegment of my motives. My motives were intended as honest feedback, not criticizm]

I did not 'lecture him'. This is a judgement on your part of my motives and what I said.

I think that it is a very important distinction between saying 'most people need' and 'I need support'.
I was hoping to give him some useful feedback about communication. Saying 'I need support' is more powerful and direct. It is also a way of owning his needs and feelings.

At the end of your post you wrote: “Why is it difficult for you to define what 'harsh' means to you and how what I said sounded 'harsh' to you? “ It would have been more skilful to accept that at the moment, he just couldn’t find or didn’t want to find the words.

[why more skillful? I really do wonder why he was not able to answer my question. He could have replied to me the truth of what he is feeling such as the possibility that he doesn't know or he feels angry and does not want to answer the question.

He is responsible for his reaction to what I say. I am responsible for the way I worded things.

He is a traumatized person, might be part of the reason. Also he may have been trying to spare your feelings.

[if he was indeed trying to 'spare' my feelings then he was being codependent. He is responsible for his reaction to my questions.]

Also he was looking for support for his issues and perhaps didn’t really want to get distracted into the task of analyzing your text.

[if so he could have told me that. again lack of communuication on his part. I am not responsible for that.]

Then you finished with: “Basically your comments about my feedback to you are so vague that I feel that you are communicating nothing to me.”

He was sending. You just weren’t receiving. [this is your perception. this is not what was going on with me. He as being very vague and indirect. He is responsible for that. I am not. What I said was what I was honestly feeling. I see that as important feedback. Again, prehaps I could have expressed myself in a more gentle way.]

Prehaps I could gave put my comments in the form of a gentler feedback about his communication which I think is important because if he has problems commincating that effects his marriage. I don't think its a small thing.]

Kathy, not everyone has an analytical mind like yours, one that neatly categorizes everything and offers crisp, concise definitions for everything. [This is not how my mind works at all!]

People's minds especially tend to not function that way when we are depressed or experiencing trauma. It is hard sometimes for an analytical person to understand why other people just can’t follow reasoning or provide clear explanations or concise definitions for things that are really part of their emotional life.

[In fact, I am very much a person that wants to communciate about feelings. I think feelings are a very important part of communication. I can understand very, very well why someone would have problems with communication about thier feelings. You statement about me is competley false]

And it is easy for a confused, depressed, traumatized person

[how do you know he is a depressed, confused, truamatized person? Even if this is true he is still responsible for his part in an exchange.] to feel backed into a corner when pressed by someone who has strong rhetorical skills like you. It is not a good idea to back a "desperate" person into a corner.

[I was not backing him into a corner as you put it. I was pushing him to communicate clearly and directly. Prehaps I could have worded what I said more gently.]

I think desperate’s feelings were hurt, he wasn’t feeling heard, and he felt badgered and backed into a corner. And he snapped at you. [he became abusive of me, there is not excuse for this no matterwhat].

I hope that he will feel better soon and be able to come back and apologize to you. But he might just feel to embarrassed, even humiliated."

If he has this problem with me you can bet he has this problem in his marriage.

A healthy intimacy requires open and honest communication and two people who are aware of their feelings.

Desparate's problem with communication I think is a big part of his problems in his marriage and I think it is extremely useful feedback. Again, that prehaps I could have worded in a more compassionate way.

March 30, 2006
11:55 am
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Kathy,

Well, you asked for feedback and I gave you some. It's just feedback and you can take it or leave it.

I believe my feedback has been gentler and more about behavior than that given to you by some other people on your "blatant abuse" thread and elsewhere. This thread, for example, was inspired by a lot of anger that was generated by my defense of you.

You asked what could have possibly bothered desperate about your post, and I told you what I thought. Since I can't read his mind, all I can do is give you my opinion. But you did ask for my opinion, after all.

March 30, 2006
12:13 pm
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kathygy
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WD,

You asked me for quotes. I gave you many qoutes. Yet, why do you have nothing to say about that? I was hoping for some communication with you after my post.

"You asked what could have possibly bothered desperate about your post"

I asked desparate, not you. Your response was based on your speculation of what was going on with desparate.

"But you did ask for my opinion, after all."

Where did I ask YOU what you thought was going on with desparate? A qoute would be helpful.

March 30, 2006
12:13 pm
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sewunique
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Okay, I am going to say it.

After nearly a week and desparate has not re surfaced here. Call me codependent or overly concerned, but I do wonder what happened to him? Can you imagine all week reading this badgering and all going on and not responding? I wonder how he feels or if he is aaround or just up and left and found another site to discuss on? Perhaps we will never know.

And yet we never asked desparate specifically to "come back" desparaate to talk this out, did we? Or have we just been so engrossed with this other stuff in defense and tackle goin on that this "newbie" has been forgotten and talked about like his presence is no longer here?

Just my thoughts triggered by what the "we-ness" has or has not done along with Kathgy and WD's ongoing discussion of what happened a week ago. Neither one of you are going to change your mind, so why go on with it?

Again, just my tired opinion.

Sew

March 30, 2006
12:24 pm
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kathygy
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sew,

I was responding to WD where he asked

"Could you please be more specific about which judgements and assumptions you are speaking of and what projection you have in mind? Quotes would help.

I did describe you as having analytical and rhetorical skills. Is that what you meant? "

I was hoping to begin to communicate with WD so that we could inderstand each other better. I think that is a good thing.

March 30, 2006
12:37 pm
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codyrn
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I'm confused...what was this thread about again ?
I've been wanting to maybe comment as I am having WE issues in my personal relationship right now.....but what was the question again ...

March 30, 2006
12:41 pm
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sewunique
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Kathgy

Yes, it is a good thing. Are you two ever going to come to terms and an understanding? Perhaps with both having the "scientific" minds and thought process you both will.

Perhaps, becasue both of you have had feedback on your language from others, it seems you are both attempting to clarify and learn.

I am just sharing what I see and how it is being the reader here. I hope growth comes from all of this. At least it is friendly discussion and seems less intense. That is a good thing.

Perhaps the "we-nes" of me is just sitting here on the sidelines and cheering you both on.

With fondness and support of you both,

Sew

March 30, 2006
12:43 pm
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codyrn
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Oh....Okay are WE leaders in the We as a group ....was part of the initial statement WD made.

Yes we are leaders here as well as followers ...depending where we start and where we are going.

I am lead by the thoughts and experiences of others on this web site that form the WE....their experiences jog my memory and help me address the ME and the WE in my personal life.

The WE is cathartic for me ....it helps me to see that the ME is not alone and that in the strength of enough WE's ...there can be a collective harmony....based on not only helping ME but helping the WE's that are here.

AS little play on words here 🙂

March 30, 2006
12:45 pm
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sewunique
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Codryn

"The WE is cathartic for me ....it helps me to see that the ME is not alone and that in the strength of enough WE's ...there can be a collective harmony....based on not only helping ME but helping the WE's that are here."

Nice thoughts!

Sew

March 30, 2006
12:53 pm
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Worried_Dad
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Hi Kathy,

You wrote:

"In cases where I may have been insenstitve to someone's feelings it was not malicious intent on my part. "

I agree with you there. I hope people don't take exception with me for presuming to read Kathy's mind or "soeaking for her" by claiming that she isn't malicious.

Kathy also wrote: "I needed specifics to understand what I said that felt harsh to him. I do not understand why people keep acting like that is a bad thing."

That was why I offered my little dissection of what might have set desperate off.

I stand corrected Kath, you weren't explicitly asking for feedback from the group. I hope that desperate will eventually return and clear things up.

Kath, I wouldn't want you to think that I am angry at you or intend to slam you. I also don't intend to say that desperate isn't responsible for his own behavior.

I do think when the question of "abuse" is raised that it is important to assess the severity of the behavior, the impact or harm done by the behavior, the intent of the person who committed the offensive act, and the context and history of relationship between the alleged abuser and the putative victim.

Considering those things can help us understand if we are actually dealing with "abuse."

March 30, 2006
1:01 pm
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kathygy
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WD,

when it comes to abuse I really don't think the intent of the person matters nor does the context or history nor the impact of the harm done.

I think the only thing that matters is that abuse is never, ever acceptable nomatter what and the abuser is always 100% responsible for the abuse.

I was very offended and upset being told "KATHGY GO SCREW YOUSELF!" It felt very abusive to me. I beleive this is abusive beyond the shadow of a doubt.

March 30, 2006
1:53 pm
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Worried_Dad
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My point Kathy is that considering those things can help us understand if what we are seeing is really "abuse."

For example, there was an attempt to discern whether your posts prior to desperate's outburst constituted "abuse." Some people thought it was. And I suspect that desperate felt that way, given his reaction.

So we have the task of determining was Kathy being abusive, what was the level of harm done or offense given, what was her intent, and what was the history behind her behavior.

What does "go screw yourself," mean anyway? What makes that abusive?

March 30, 2006
2:20 pm
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sewunique
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If I may chime in here? I am so glad you two brought this phrase up.

I am glad you brought it up again because I feel the question of this phrase of whether or not it was abusive or not (or abuse lite) has been watered down here with everything else going on.

Putting aside what and how Kathgy repied, I just wanted to say this about "go screw yourself"

I consider it abusive, inappropriate, swearing and attacking and insulting.

When I mentioned it before as swearing, someone said it was not "there was only one sewar word in it that I could count" or close to that idea (Not quoting exactly).

Give m e a break. If i told my supervisor to screw herself or another employee to scew yourself, I would be in big troughble and my reputation would be tarnished.

It is abusive. It is swearing.

All I can add is to try to make it otherwise, then my values and proper talk are from two different arenas.

And....from what I read here from what SC has put out; it is not acceptable. If not, then I wonder.

And WD, the phrase "abuse lite" annoys me. Abuse is abuse. Isn't that what happens when there is "covert abuse" or crazymaking? Or when one says it is just a joke to say this or that and we are being sensitive? Where have you read or what book points out "abuse lite" and "abuse heavy"?

Just in MHO.

Sew

March 30, 2006
2:38 pm
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I'm not sure why I am jumpin in here to be honest ....but here goes.......

Abuse can come in many forms, emotional,physical,financial....controlling someone can be abusive ...etc.....we all know that.but I say that because there are really two people involved in abuse...the one who gives the abuse and the receiver of it.

First and foremost I cannot control the deliverer of the abuse ....PERIOD.

If I am receiving abuse....well ...the abuser may never apologize...may never admit it....may rationalize it away (my present financially abusive situation comes to mind here )....and so what do I do about that ?????

I have several options:

1. Badger him into realizing that he really messed up ...have him admit it...but is that gonna change him ? Not likely as HE HAS TO WANT TO SEE HIS ERRORS ....

2. I can avoid all contact with him.....and I am working on separation of finances etc ...to protect myself from further $$$ ruin. Avoidance applies here as well.

3. Seek the advice of qualified people ...listen...see if it is something I can do ...what do I do and how and am I prepared to act on it.

I guess in a nut shell what I am trying to say is that ....abuse comes in many forms ....someone delivers it and someone catches it .....the cycle only really stops when someone ....decides to quit delivering and/or catching ....both have options ....but I only have options for how I respond.
I'm working on letting go and quit catching what he delivers....it will FALL somewhere ....but it does not have to be in my lap right ?

Let it go comes to mind here...

just my opinion ...and we all know where my opinion as got me in the past....

codyrn

March 30, 2006
2:43 pm
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tracylyn
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I am an old-timer. I don't come around often anymore but do check in and speak up when I feel strongly about something.

I will say that there was a time I broke the guidelines blantantly and with purpose when I told someone to "F*ck off" and stay off my thread.

Who??? Me??? Yep!!

What evolved from that conflict was that #1 - it was obvious that the other person struck a huge nerve with me and it prompted me to find out why. And #2 it taught the poster (I think anyway) not to take my reply to her personally and we both used it to gain knowledge about ourselves and what triggered certain actions/reactions in each of us.

I will tell you also that now, that very poster is one that I look forward to hearing from because I know she'll tell me the truth no matter how much it hurts or how much I do not want to hear it. I cherish her opinions because she was one who stood up and really made me think. It hurt at the time and I lashed out big time but in the end, I am thankful for her wisdom and a healthier person today because it.

Now - getting to WD's original questions:

I am but a humble student here, learning from my peers. I can only hope that they learn from me as well. We are a "we" - united in self growth.

t

March 30, 2006
2:45 pm
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taj64
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"Starting new threads for the purpose of belittling, proving a point, ganging up attention, etc is a method of attack (please, honestly assess what your purpose is). Keep discussions on the same thread so others can follow the communication and offer objective viewpoints. Starting new threads to continue disagreements inflames the situation! That's not what these boards are for!"

Are you listening? How about my thread "helping others in need - TAJ". I was ignored. Please read. Thank you.

March 30, 2006
2:47 pm
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gingerleigh
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Actually, I think there is a guideline tip up towards the top that says that swearing is ok in this forum. I think it goes something like "Sometimes a four letter word can say a mouthful, just don't direct it at anyone on these boards." I'm paraphrasing, but I think the general idea is that cussing is acceptable, so long as we aren't flinging these words at others here.

So in that light, when Desperate said "Kathy, go screw yourself", screw *is* a four letter word in this instance because it's a substitute for the word "fuck" (which is widely accepted as a four letter swear word). Since Desperate did use this word to fling at Kathy, it does constitute a violation of the guidelines, and as such, he should be warned that it's not ok to do that in this forum.

March 30, 2006
2:48 pm
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codyrn
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tracylyn,

I'm a newbie here and will look for posts from you in the future.

And to everyone from WD to Kathyguy and inbetween I appreciate your honest hearfelt insight...really I do... I am sensitive to criticism but I know that I will only grow if I look at ME ...

The WE at this site is a treasure....

March 30, 2006
2:52 pm
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sewunique
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will do Taj when I return home from work. Thanks

March 30, 2006
3:03 pm
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taj64
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I agree also that it was not acceptable what Desperate said to Kathy. So how about letting the SC person give him the warning. He isn't around lately. Ginger is correct as far I as know. Now can life move on? This is not doing any good to go on and on and on about it. let it go. Frankly it is embarrassing to come here and keep reading and rehashing this.

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