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WD asks for a Referendum: IS there a "We" here?
March 26, 2006
3:38 am
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sewunique
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Actually, I have been busy posting in Libs.

My vote has been cast.

I am a we, but not because I just want to join the bandwagon.

There are many forms of leaders and many styles of leadership.

And I would bet that many on this thread are leaders whether they are fence sitters, or deny that they are claiming to be or not to be leaders.

Interesting; otherwise....why would you be here?

Sew

March 26, 2006
3:43 am
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bonita1
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Worried Dad,

I do believe there is a "we" on this site.

As for not wanting the role of teacher/leader, I thought that was funny in light of my chosen profession- EDUCATOR.

Made me smile, WD!

~~bonita

March 26, 2006
3:45 am
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free2choose
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Bonita...another fence rider.

Yes or No questions are not necessary, people deserve to explain there feelings.

What you need to do is to separate the issues.

Issue 1: Our "We-ness"

Issue 2: Who is our leader. Are we all leaders?

WD:

I am consistently disagreeing with you tonight.

You said:

"And I also here that you and I have different ideas about what consitutues "leadership." For you, it seems to be something that has a "rightfulness" about it, as if it were an entitlement. For me, it is more about a group of pedestrians waiting at a crosswalk. It only takes one person to bolt across the intersection against the light to catalyze an entire group of people doing it. And just one person can by their forbearance, strenghten the resolve of a group of people to behave in a social, versus antisocial way."

By your own explanation, your (self-apointed) leadership of this "group" is an entitlement. One you feel you have rightfully earned by the legnth of time you have visited this site, and also your "leaderfullness", which is given "mmost consitently and powerfully and generously to the Sustenance of this group."

It is YOU, WD, who speaks as if you feel entitled to leadership. So that is where my view springs from.

And WD...didn't you ever hear...

"Now, WD, son, if your friend decided to jump off the bridge, would you do it too???"

Your "pedestrian" analogy is bogus. We are adults. We can and do form our own opinions. We can and do make our own decisions.

And the problem, no matter the definition of a leader, is your consistent pattern of self election as the leader. And now you want people to agree with you that that is ok. It is not.

March 26, 2006
3:55 am
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free2choose
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Hey, SEW.

(((Sewunique)))

Good to see you.

So you are a "WE" huh?

I agree that there are many different types of leaders.

I agree that we all have something to offer here, some more than others, some more in one situation than another. Therefore, in that way, we could essentially be called "leading by example" by sharing our experience, strenth and hope with someone who is going through what we have been through already.

BUT..and boy its a big but...

As far as monitoring this site, mediating between people, telling people when they are out of line (unless what they said was directly to you, or they were asking for it, wuch as WD is now), the only one that should be able to do this is the SC. So therefore she is the only Leader in that respect.

March 26, 2006
3:58 am
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sewunique
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One could say that the "we"-ness can be considered connected to leadership.

Then again, to have a leader, one must have followers.

However, given time and experience to this site and how it runs, and developing cyber relationships within this site, we establish leadership, whether desiring to do so or not, to the new posters to this site.

I agree and yet disagree to your point, Free.

Sew

March 26, 2006
4:08 am
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sewunique
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I hear what yu are saying. However, there are times when the SC is not able to respond for awhile. sometimes SC is not even aware of things as SC has a life supporting job as you and I. This site is her inception, but SC is not always able to monitor the site closely.

I think the point WD is trying to make here is that we all have some responsiblity and ownership to the site group. (The site belongs to SC).

It is difficult when threads go the wasy this one in particular do. However, it generally, no, I have seen most always it ends well. We learn from it; even if only reading the thread's posts. It is a stretch and growth process and perhaps very uncomfortable.

Yah, sorry I told my vote. But I thought it was about to be exposed or understood sooner or later.

Then at times, I will go on the fence and sit as well, just depends. I do support this site and the body of the site; that is you and me and et al.

Back to your post about sew; you do have a sense of humour. I like that.

Sew

March 26, 2006
4:11 am
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free2choose
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"Then again, to have a leader, one must have followers."

EXACTLY, Sew...and in a safe place such as this, should we not all be considered EQUALS!!!!

"However, given time and experience to this site and how it runs, and developing cyber relationships within this site, we establish leadership, whether desiring to do so or not, to the new posters to this site."

I agree. With new people sometimes we often must explain the difference between the support thread and the LIB thread. Or point out certain things about the guidelines. Also at times, but sharing where we have been in reference to where they are, we are leading by using our own experience as example.

BUT...another big but...

This whole thing started because of a thread posted by Kathy, who is in NO WAY a newcommer. And a response made by WD, who is also not a newcommer.

A newcommer made an assesment of Kathy and wrote a post that was rude, inappropriate, and not nice.

But he made it to Kathy, NOT WD.

So where does WD get the athority to come in and blast the newcomer?

You see shat I'm saying?

March 26, 2006
4:12 am
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bonita1
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free2choose,

I like your moniker and it has provided me with some insight into where you are coming from. Free, please correct me if I am reading you wrong, but I perceive that you are someone who values independence and freedom to choose her own path or plan of action. (Forgive me if I got your gender wrong.)

This strong value for independence is what fuels your passion for rebelling at the thought of becoming a part of a collective "we." Also, I could be wrong but I believe that it is also the reason behind an underlying hostility towards WD that I am perceiving in your postings to him??

Worried Dad is asking more than one question here, I do agree with you.

WD said, "Is there a "we" here? Are you part of that "we?" Do you feel any responsibility to represent that "we?" Will you try to be a leader in that regard?"

He is asking specific questions and wants people's opinions. He could have asked a simpler question like "Is there a 'we' here? Why or why not?" This could have provoked a more focused discussion.

However, I think that some of the words in your posting to him could be misconstrued as personal attacks. For example, "And the problem, no matter the definition of a leader, is your consistent pattern of self election as the leader. And now you want people to agree with you that that is ok. It is not."

I get the feeling that there are some unresolved issues here, unresolved anger you are feeling towards WD?

With all due respect,

~~bonita

March 26, 2006
4:40 am
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sewunique
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Free,

I hope I understand your questions, so am pasting this in to clarify, if I may. (I know if I am off base either you or someone else will chime in; which is fine).

You asked;

"This whole thing started because of a thread posted by Kathy, who is in NO WAY a newcommer. And a response made by WD, who is also not a newcommer. "

True. This often happens where one thing sparks another idea. The threads are open to anyone who wishes to post; as per SC. Threads are not exclusive to some and not to others. Although, at times that does happen. where some will dialog due to familiarity of posters or the subject matter.

And:

"A newcommer made an assesment of Kathy and wrote a post that was rude, inappropriate, and not nice."

I agree, I do not consider it appropriate no matter who said what; it did not warrent that remark. But we are human and we do make mistakes. I am hoping both Kathgy and the other poster (excuse me for forgetting the name)will both get this straightened out and begin to openly post with responses.

And;
"But he made it to Kathy, NOT WD.

So where does WD get the athority to come in and blast the newcomer?
You see shat I'm saying? "

Aha!!! Exactly. As I said before, and touched some about this up in Libs; I would do the same thing as would others. I recall bonita , seekerw, mamaC as others do the same. Just as all the others did on the thread Kathgy started.

This is in part what WD is saying here. Wouldn't you do the same if you did not see someone respond to it? WD was trying to intervene.

Sometimes we all get can carried away or a bit over the edge. It happens. We learn from it.

Is that helpful?

Sew

March 26, 2006
7:20 am
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bonni
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I try very hard here not to sound like I'm speaking from authority, but from my heart. Probably I fail alot, because of my switching roles and driving desire to be right all the time. At work and as a mom, I have to be in charge.

Sometimes I hear consensus build here from a "we." Mostly though, the value for me is the insightful feedback I get from individuals - either by reading their issues or from their responses to mine.

I'm trying to learn to hear my own voice and not just adopt that of the person Im with, be less codependent. I'm just dipping my foot in the pool and can't jump in, because i'd drown.

March 26, 2006
7:30 am
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Worried_Dad
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Free2Choose,

Actually, this whole thread started because I wanted to ask a question, not about something that happened between Kathy and some other person.

And, as I said, I am really dont want to dilute this thread much with feedback for wd--another thread has been created for that purpose. If you are going to put words into my mouth and judge me for the words you put into my mouth--do it on the other thread please. Actually, if you have anything at all to say about me, my history, my behavior, my psychology, my character--do it on the other thread please.

This particular thread is mainly about...Culture. "Leadership" is a secondary issue, kind of like the hanging "fossil genes" cliffhanger in the evolution thread--that one can just hang for now.

let me try again:

First some "I statements."

1) I belive that we have written guidelines.

2) I believe that those guildelines have been essayed on by the coordinator of this site and exist in a larger and deeper form than is expressed purely in writing here.

3) I believe that we have been asked by the coordinator of this site to not only observe posting guidlines but to catch ourselves and also others when those guidelines are violated.

4) And I believe that the conditions just listed have led to the development of a culture here.

5) (a) I believe that the coordinator of this site has repeatedly expressed frustration about being placed in the postion of having to "be God," to mediate little disputes that are easily resolvable by means of reference to that culture and the guidelines and history that support it.

5) (b) I believe that the coordinator of this site has expressed frustration about being placed in the position of having to write explicit rules and guidlines, and having to essay about things that are actually implicit in the basic guidlines and implicit in the conversations that we have already had with the SC and implicit in the history of this site. The most famous example being the recent wars about guidelines for religious expression.

The coordinator of this site has expressed despair that after a weekend, the SC has to come back and find 500 occurences of the phrase "Site Coordinator" or "SC," when couched language to the effect of "I'm gonna tell the SC," or "Let's ask the SC," or "Just you wait until the SC gets home," or "you're not the SC of me!"

6) I believe that the summary of 5 (a) and 5(b) is that the Coordinator of this site has expressed frustration that posters here have not manifested a strong sense or defense of the culture, a cohesive sense of a "we" who join together and as a culture support the values implicit in the guidelines and in the conversations we have had about the guidelines.

7) I believe that the coordinator of this site has also expressed frustration that individuals here have not assumed personal responsibility to hold each of us accountable to explicit and implicit cultural values that exist here.

8) I believe that the coodinator of this site has let us know, many times, if we did not start manifesting a sense of a cohesive and powerful social organism, a "we" that was capable of sticking up for itself, i.e., sticking up for the values of this culture, i.e., the explicit and implicit guidelines, then this site would continue to manifest problems that make it just too painful to be worth maintaining given the work and expense involved.

9) To summarize, I believe that the SC has explained at length: By now, there had darn well better be a culture and a "we" here, and individuals had better be good sports and courageous and generous in their offering and also respecting of leadership that is offered in the service of supporting the guidelines of this site and the values of the culture here.

I am sincerely doing my best to interpret and live up to the directions given and the heartfelt pleas that have been made to me and to all of us. I didn't just make this stuff up, you know.

And if all of that is not what the Site Coordinator meant to say then I will happily take it all back.

Meanwhile, I would like to talk about the question of: Does anyone here agree with points 1)through 9)?

March 26, 2006
8:02 am
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whidbey
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I'm gonna be like MamaC, I suppose, and just make my observation about this site. Put me where you will, I don't care. šŸ™‚

I feel there is a "we" if only by virtue of the fact that anyone who joins this board has to read the guidelines and actually has to have a password to get on the board. Once that is done, yes, one has joined a community. It is a community of people who have a lot of hurt, compassion, and experiences to share. Anytime there is sharing in any way, there is a "we."

As for leaders, first, I will say, WD, honestly, I thought you WERE a site leader. Yes, I use that term in the sense of I see a "leader" here as a coordinator/manager. I mean that in the nicest possible way and take from that what you will. šŸ™‚

As for the terms leaders/elders, etc., some people would perhaps be "elders" in my mind only by virtue that they've been here longer than others and they can post, and paste, some really good threads and articles which have been brought up in earlier threads in order to bring about deeper understanding to a hurting soul. That doesn't make them leaders, in my mind, but simply perhaps more experienced in the workings of the board.

Nor do I think of myself (or care to)as a leader. In the few short months I've been here, I've had people seek me out with questions, for support, etc. Does that make me a leader? No. It just means that perhaps I've been through what they are going through, and I may, perhaps, just be further down that long and rocky road and can offer some encouragement and support, and hold that flashlight at the end of their tunnel for them to try to reach. Others, by virtue of their experiences have done the same for me. Back and forth, yin and yang. It is the mixture of everyone's experiences that enable us to support one another. None of us are leaders, per se, just taking turns holding that flashlight.

Dunno if this makes much sense. It's 5:00 in the morning, and coffee hasn't quite kicked in yet.

March 26, 2006
8:16 am
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Anonymous
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Worried Dad,
I am trying to wade through all these words.
"I have found a LEADER here. I like the leadership that was offered to me, and I claim that I am trying to follow that leadership by offering leadership. In my fantasy absolutely EVERYONE who reads this will say "Yes, Yes! I want to be a leader in that way too!" " Who are you trying to say is the leader on this site? Polly

March 26, 2006
9:32 am
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lollipop3
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WD et.al,

I can't even read this entire thread. No offense to those that have tried to engage in a dialog with WD, but this is the most ridiculous thing I have seen so far on AAC.

WD,

Is this supposed to be some project for your debate class? "We", "Leader", "Culture"....I feel like I'm reading the script for a bad episode of Star Trek.

I'm not sure what you are doing here WD, but this site is should not be used as some pet project for your "cult" research. You are treating this site as if it is some type of religion!

I, personally, look at this site as somewhat of a "family" which perhaps you would consider a "we" but it is full of individuals. Individuals with different opinions, values, ideas and problems. Individuals looking for compassion and support, sometimes during the worse times of their lives. Indivdivuals trying to learn about themselves and perhaps even trying to help others when they can.

I agree that for the sake of this place, yes, we need to police ourselves and try to stick to the guidelines. But, ultimately, as with everything else in life....we can only control ourselves. And when things get too out of control....like now for instance....it is the SITE COORDINATORS job to take care of it.

In my opinion, NO ONE, should be investing so much of themselves into a website that they refer to it with terms such as "we", "leader", "culture".

As always, just my opinion.

Lolli

March 26, 2006
9:46 am
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Lolli, you have put into words the thoughts that have been going around and around since this whole thread(s) started. I have also wondered if all these threads created after the poor desperate guy was run off, are to take sides? Just wondering about agendas? Polly

March 26, 2006
9:49 am
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lollipop3
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To everyone....

This can be summed up quite easily without all drama that the title of this thread has brought to AAC.....

Alanon Tradition #12

".....ever reminding us to put principles above personalities."

The End

March 26, 2006
10:43 am
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mj
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The "WE" that WD refers to I have found is like a lynch mob. I have been mobbed by a we here before.

I prefer to speak from my heart and treat everyone with kindness, equality and respect.

March 26, 2006
11:25 am
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I read WD's 9 points, and I think I see what he's saying. I think he's saying more or less what all of us could agree on. As usual in these types of discussions, I think there is more agreement than disagreement fundamentally.

WD seems concerned the SC might pull the plug on this site, and I think this is a reasonable concern. The Site Coordinator wants to maintain it, but only if it is a blessing to us instead of a cursing. She can't police all the threads herself and settle disputes personally, so she needs our help by us policing ourselves and handling the smaller matters to free her up to handle the larger matters.

Somehow we have to find a balance between keeping each other in check sufficiently to keep this site a healthy place to be, and policing ourselves too much to the extent that we start assuming too much authority over others.

That's a very fine line to maintain, and we'll probably always veer from one side to the other of that line, but hopefully will never stray far.

I may simply be repeating what's been said all along, but any ideas on how to maintain this fine line?

Would it be a good idea to ask the SC to appoint several people on this site to help ensure the guidelines are maintained? This isn't my first preference. However, if it's a choice between that and the SC deciding it's too much trouble and pulling the plug on this entire site, I'd prefer to have those appointees myself.

Seeker

March 26, 2006
11:49 am
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lollipop3
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Hi Seeker,

Personally, I think this site does just fine the way it is. Like any other social situation involving more than one person....occationally people will disagree.

The "tiff" between desperate and Kathy (and Kathy and I) is not the first and surely won't be the last. But overall, I think everyone here does a pretty good job of coming to some sort of resolution when a problem arises. At least that has been my experience in the year + that I have been coming here.

However, there are times when there is a persistant "problem" where the SC may have to step in. I happen to believe that what has happened over the last couple of days is one of those times, as I think the issue with Kathy has gone on unchecked for way too long. But, I honestly don't think that this situation happens frequently enough that we should "panic" about the site being closed down. At least I hope that is nothing that we should have to worry about.

As always....just my opinion.

Lolli

March 26, 2006
12:35 pm
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on my way
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I love all of you, but do not "classify" me please, I don't need it. This is quite a different thread than most.

March 26, 2006
12:57 pm
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Wow; a lot of work you have put into this thread, WD. I understand what you are saying here with your points 1 thru 9 and have to agree.

From what I have experienced here in my short history, this site basically maintains itself. It is the "we" here of the group that forms the , cohesiveness, the leadership, the family, the policing of it, or however folks here tend to express this.

Yes, Seeker, you got it; you are right on the mark.

Sew

March 26, 2006
1:18 pm
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"you're not the SC of me!"

LOL

March 26, 2006
1:19 pm
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lollipop3
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I liked that one too SD.....LOL

March 26, 2006
1:24 pm
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Hi MJ,

Sorry to hear that you have felt "mobbed." I don't recall the thread you refer to and can't comment on that at this time.

The most esential guideline here is that the site is about "Respect, Support, & Feedback."

The "we" I speak of would be the culture of people who believe, like you, that we do best when we treat everyone with kindness, equality and respect.

Thank you for checking in.

March 26, 2006
1:29 pm
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Loolipop wrote:

"Is this supposed to be some project for your debate class? ...I feel like I'm reading the script for a bad episode of Star Trek....project for your "cult" research....some type of religion.."

With all due respect, Lolli, in my opinion your post violates the posting guidelines of this site. And what is more, your post doesn't really seem to be in the spirit of how we do things here at AAC.

Bt I'll be happy to talk it over with you in liberation brew. Perhaps you can set me straight.

šŸ˜‰

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