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Was it rape? Was it abuse? You decide.
February 6, 2000
11:03 pm
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mindless
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When I was 10 through about 12 or 13 I had a very close relationship with a teacher who earnestly, at least seemingly, appreciated my talents and eagerness to learn. And he was very attentive and the breadth of his knowledge combined with his personableness was welcome as a spring in the desert.

At about 15, he invited me on a trip a combination learning time and get away. When we arrived at the hotel, he was told there were no single bed rooms but they could have a cot brought in if he liked. He discussed it with me appearing somewhat unsure, but I said it didn't matter and he concluded that we could always think about it later.

When morning came, his hand was on me as I awoke. he appeared somewhat asleep. I was slowly wakening but he was somewhat messaging me and said he would stop if I wanted.

Who knows why but I just said, "it's ok" and with that he continued messaging me further and further and finally went down on me with his mouth.

That was the beginning of sveral years of "get aways". several times a year.

Oddly enough during that time I was never asked to do anything, all cost were taken care of, I just showed up and off we went. Always interesting places to go. Always lots of learning going on. I was always the student and he always the teacher - Spiritually it was rewarding. Sexually, I was never asked to reciprocated in any way, so I just got used to it. Did it feel good? Yes.

All in all, he was a perfect gentleman, in fact remains as a sort of father image for me.

My mother left my father when I was about 2. He is still alive and has helped me economically throughout my life, but isn't capable with any degree of breadth to be there emotionally, at all. He does feel some responsibility, but sort of like an up and comming baseball player who doesn't really know what to do with a bat - a surgeon who can't handle a scalple.

Stepfather ruled the house mostly through fear . Mom liked "strong men". He died a few years ago. I was happy.

That teacher was the best example of a human being I had at the time.

So what do you think?

February 7, 2000
3:55 am
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Why do you leave the decision to us? Wouldn't you rather decide yourself?

Take care Eve

February 7, 2000
4:22 am
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mindless
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eve -because my mind is unsettled about it. Why can't you help?

February 7, 2000
4:32 am
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Mindless, hi,
Do you feel any feelings of violation about this relationship, or do you look back on it as you would with other early explorations of your sexuality?

Obviously, this teacher should not have taken advantage of his pupil, but by the sounds of it if you had not agreed ,he would not have pushed you and left you alone.

I too had a similar experience with a man about 10 yrs older than me at that age, it is an experience that i enjoyed at the time and feel no regrets about since, because i was young yes but never pushed into anything. To me, it was just a early encounter that did me no harm and did no -ne else any harm so its okay.

It depends on how you feel about it, if it troubles you now, and what it is that troubles you.
Let us know more.
Peace
Hazza

February 7, 2000
5:37 am
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mindless
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haza -that sort of is the problem, On the one habd I could have said no - today, it would carry no interest, but on the other, I was 9in no state of maturity to be evn exposed to thchoice. On the other, this person was more decent to me than any other male - on the other hand, perhaps taking advantage of the emotional innpocence was the cruelest thing any of them did. so yousee mydilema?

February 7, 2000
6:10 am
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mindless
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so it seems that if you prick someone with a fork as they try to move forward, despite the fact that there is a roaring fire behind them - it is ok. this is experimenting. (30 years sr, by the way)

is ir ok for evry man to act like a dirty bastard - just because it's exprimentring - i sor of get confused over that.

February 7, 2000
6:18 am
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mindless
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so being continually sodomized for several years because you are terrified of where you have to go back to- this is ok/ sort of experimentation

February 7, 2000
6:21 am
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Hi,
i do see your dilema, but if you don't mind me saying so, maybe you are looking to hard for some sign of abuse? i do know

yes you were young and not mature enough to think it through, it depends how mature the teacher was too

for all i know he may have been taking advantage of you, but remember at any age anyone can do that to us, sometimes you can be just as blind to that even when you are older, we have all been blinded by "love" just to find out that the other person was just using us, that is wrong at any age, especially when we are young.
Also he could have been in love with you? i don't know, maybe

I have the same thing with my experience, when i think back it seems a bit odd that a man of his age would be fooling with a girl my age, but i still know that even without maturity if something had felt wrong at the time, i would have resisted. it would not have been an intellectual discision that i could only have made when older, it would have felt wrong to me emotionally at the time and i would have known.

I think that you are feeling that it was so lucky that he was decent because if he wasn't you could have ended up in a bad situation, and i think it is the fear of what might have happened, because you look back and see that you were quite unaware at that age. and that is natural, rather than what did happen.

I agree that he was in the wrong, but it is the question of what his motives were at the time, was is just because he could take advantage? was he feeling emotionally attached to you? He doesn't seem to have been motivated by violence towards you,
I know with my experience that there was an emotional attachment and that together we discussed the age gap and decided that there was no future for us, a decision that we were both happy with.
SOme of these things you may never know the answer to and that is why i say to go on how you feel, if you feel afraid of him, angry at him, or do you feel grateful to him that he made your first experiences gentle ones? I would just say that unless you are emotionally troubled then maybe you have to look at it as one of the many mistakes and choices we all make sometimes. If you feel that you had no choice and feel angry because of that the yes you will feel that you have been abused. It is very difficult to say, you cant go back and say no and see what would have happened.
it also appears that you have alot of good feelings for this man as being beneficial in your life as a role model, may be he got confused in your feelings and mistook them for love? only you know this man, you would know if he was taking advantage or just acting inappropriately on genuine feelings.
You need to explore more fully what happened to you as a result of this encounter.
Did it give you confidence? make you happy? make you feel guilty? make you promiscuous?
do you think the man himself would have felt that he was abusing you?
DO you keep in contact with him?
let me know, what is happeneing in your life now to make you think back to this?
Hazza

February 7, 2000
6:41 am
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mindless
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haza - some of what you say makes sens but part of me is totally ouraged now. so now courts are out the window? golces off society? what absolute horrid pigs men are that they can't do anything in life unless for sex or violence it seems-

February 7, 2000
7:55 am
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eve
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mindless,

Trust your own instincts / decisions / morale and don't go looking for somebody who tells you how you should feel or what you should do. That's what I was trying to say. I feel for you, because from what you write you seem to be between a rock and a hard place.

And I agree that a 15year old girl propably can't be in a position to decide what she wants and what she doesn't want, especially when the alternative is much worse. So yes: the older male should be the one who takes responsibility - and keeps his hands off you.

But I think you are putting yourself in just the same situation again, when you look for others to tell you what to do or how to feel. You will only get out of that depending on others (and thereby depending on their moral standards) when you stand your own ground. But I know that's much easyer written down than done.

Maybe you could get counseling to help you to sort things out?

February 7, 2000
8:02 am
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Mindless,
i made my last post before your lst 2 posts had appeared.
I am sorry if i offended you, i was going on the little information you had given in your first posts, i was under the impression that the man had not had full intercourse with you. I am sorry, i did not know at the time all the other facts.
I thought you were talking about a relationship that both of you wanted, even though you were young.
I now understand that this is not the case,
WHEN I WROTE MY LAST POST, I DID NOT HAVE ACCESS TO YOU LASTEST POSTS - SORRY I UNDERSTAND BETTER NOW.

i thought that the teacher may have been only a few years older than you, this is why i wondered if it was mutual

if he was thirty years older than you and he had full intercourse with you and acted in your words like a "dirty bastard" then this is of course abuse and i am not surprised you are troubled by it now, i just assumed that you would have said from the beginnignthat it was abuse, but you described him as the perfect gentleman. This is why i thought at first you were talking about a relationship rather than abuse - sorry.

So i take back what i said about experimentation, clearly this is not the case here, that was just the case in my story not yours.
none of what i said was aimed at someone who has suffered abuse. I was talking about a situation where 2 young people have a sexual encounter willingly even though one is older than the other. that was what i though you had experienced with your teacher, that is why i said what i said. I though it was a reltaionship that you wanted as well at the time but wondered in later life if it was right.

Now i know the facts i realse that of course you feel angry and you were taken advantage of, even because you agreed at the time, there is a big difference between 2 young people sexually experimenting ( eg not full intercourse) and a fully mature man having illegal intercourse with you, you no doubt felt grateful to this man for the time he spent with you and it would have been difficult for you to say no, he did abuse this trust in you and he was old enough to know better,

so no, now i know the facts, this is not okay. This was not as i thought a relationship, but an abuse on his part of the situation. What i said about hm having feelings for you may well have been true, he may have been the perfect gentleman, he may have thought that what he was doing was motivated by genuine feelings he had towards you, but he should not have acted on those feelings,
The feeling i get is that at the time, you said it felt good but now you are mature you realise the bigger picture and realise that you did not have the maturity then to see that maybe it was not a healthy situationfor you long term, as you said you did not have the maturity to be able to make that choice.
This has affected you, you feel men are just pigs! many of them are, but many are decent wonderful people who would happily string up abusive men by the balls.
Have you got any councelling for this? you need to be able to process all this pain and help yourself heal, you are right, people who take advantage of young children whould be held accountable in court. Could you consider taking legal action now? i don't know what to suggest, you started this post by saying was it rape, but went on to say how spiritually rewarding your relationship with this man was, it was only later that you said about the hurtful treatment you had to endure just to get the spiritual side of theis relationship. There is such a mixture of both good and bad feelings towards this man that it is natural not to know now whether it was a good thing or not.

The fact that you have all this anger, shows me that it was more abusive than you wanted to admit to at first and you almost feel ungrateful in being angry at this man because he had helped you in ither areas of your life.
You are allowed to feel anger, even if he had given you a million dollars and a flying pony, he was wrong to expect sexual gratificationin return.
he should not have put you in the postion to say stop if you didn't want it, you were in a position where you felt grateful to this man, He may have a history of doing this, this is why you may wish to report it to the police.

I am so sorry for my earlier post, as i said, at the time i was just going on your first post and thought that, like me, it was a mutual exploration that happens at adolecence. i now see that it was not like that at all.
Please see a councellor trained in these issues, you need to be able to make your future a happy one so that this man does not continue to take advantage of you by being in your mind and affecting the way you relate to people now. it will help. You will be able to realise that you were innocent in this, and unlucky too

February 7, 2000
11:57 am
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Cici
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Mindless...

If you feel like you were violated, then it was sexual abuse. That's the bottom line. If you feel like it was wrong, then it usually is wrong. I don't know what the statute of limitations is for sexual abuse cases in your state. If you want to persue legal action, look into it with a lawyer.

There is no reason to look to others to validate your own feelings. For me, I was molested at age 5 and sexually assaulted when I was 12. I briefly saw a counselor, but with the help and loving support of my family and close friends, I was able to build up my self-esteem. I now feel confident in myself.

The thing I'm trying to say is that it is possible to develop a healthy, balanced outlook on life. But that requires hard work and years of effort. There are no easy outs when it comes to psychological trauma. It is easy to sit back and say, "bad things happen to me, so I feel bad about myself." It is much more difficult to take action, ackowledge that your feelings are validated and to teach yourself that you ARE a worthwhile person who deserves to be psychologically healthy and develop healthy relationships. Once you learn to look at yourself honestly and acceptingly, you will learn how to close the book on the past and live life for the future.

We cannot change what happened to us, but we can change how we allow it to affect us. Every day that I lived in fear of men, I let my abusers rape me all over again. Once I conquered my fears, self-doubts and insecurities, I won my life back.

A good friend taught me this, when I discussed with her what had happened to me: Who were these men who did these awful things to you? They were nothing. If you let them rule your life, if you let them change how you think about yourself, you let them win. They will be your shadow for life, always holding you back. You must shake them off, because they are nothing. Only you can decide who you want to be.

She survived a violent gang rape during the Vietnam War that nearly left her sterile and she still bears the scars on her body. She went on to marry and have three children, and has been happily married for 30 years. She went to college while pregnant, still learning english, and is now a doctor.

This isn't you, but her story (which I didn't know until after I told her mine) gave me such inspiration. I hope it helps you. Take care of yourself.

February 7, 2000
1:21 pm
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mindless
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yes- that is what I m trying to understand within myself. When I said "relationship" i meant teacher/student . he was a great inspiration as a teacher. the sex relationship happened the morning I woke up. No I didn't resist - No there was no intercourse - just oral and he asked me for nothing but to be his "body" to work over. No I didn't object, it was more of a numb feeling but the feelings to go back to(family problems, quarrels, dissonance) were worse.

But I think you are right that to let it control me is to lte it continuemto happen I think the confusion is that there was a "parent' role model that i looked up to nd pattrened my life after because of the good parts - the access to learning - the enjoyment of the subject. that's what was violated - but ultmately with men it alwasy comes to one thing-that's what i don't undersant why?

February 7, 2000
1:51 pm
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Cici
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People have sexual impulses, it's evolutionary. Historically, men have persued sexual fulfillment in order to produce as many offspring as possible while women persue relationships to provide a stable environment in which to raise the few offspring they are able to have.

Now this is an over-simplification. There are social roles that are forced upon both sexes that condition us to seek what we were taught is "appropriate" for our sex.

The problem is the way that we process sexual impulses, being that as humans we have the power to think and reason. If you were exposed to a sexual impulse that our society dictates is wrong (ie, molestation), then you will associate future sexual impulses with this feeling of "wrongness" that you were first exposed to.

We also tend to pattern our own sexual and relationship behaviors after our parents. The fact that your mother was a more passive partner affected how you saw the female role: as a passive recipient, rather than an active participant.

Although you associate good, comfortable feelings with this teacher, he behaved inappropriately. An authority figure who engages in sexual activities (including the giving of oral sex) is taking advantage of his authority role. The student places her trust in this figure (because she lacks an authority figure who merits trust at home), he violates this trust by exposing that student to a sexual impulse that makes her feel "wrong."

So...you have the impulse to be passive in relationships. Men in the relationships naturally have sexual impulses toward you. You passively receive them, but associate the feelings with something wrong or bad, therefore associating the men with those negative feelings, regardless of the fact that they have completely natural impulses.

The numb feeling is disassociation. You disassociate yourself from situations which make you feel violated or wrong. It is a copping mechanism for trauma that is common in people hwo experienced childhood sexual abuse. I had similar feelings, until I dealt with my problems.

I gave you a brief description of my own views...this is not necessarily what you're going through. But sometimes having any explanation is better than having none, yes?

February 8, 2000
12:07 am
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Hi mindless,

I feel very badly for you and am wondering. Is it the anger you are struggling with or understanding?

February 8, 2000
8:06 am
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Hi Mindless. I feel a lot of sympathy for you as I had a similar experience at school when I was about 7 or 8, even now I keep wondering 'was it natural was it just me', but talk about it, we are here to help you. Please keep posting.

February 8, 2000
5:09 pm
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Cici.
Your posting of 7-Feb-00 was very well put. I think that it is a very close and brief approximation of the processes and the consequences of culturally inappropriate sexual behaviour.

February 11, 2000
4:45 am
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Hi mindless

You really must think this through and talk about it - you can't just let it continue unresolved

February 13, 2000
9:34 pm
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Hello? Im new to the internet and found this web site i have been reading alot of these stories which made me think to write about my past and what has happened to me. The first thing that happened to me was that I was sexually molested in 2 grade and most of 3rd grade. It was being done be one of my peers another little girl that was probably the same age as me when she saw that i would go to the bathroom she would soon be behind me she would wait until i would get out of the stall or at least unlock the door then she would back me up into a corner and stick her hands down my pants and would stick her fingers in and all around my vagina, I was only 7 years old i didn't know what to do or how to react but i knew that it was not okay for her to be touching me like that so I went to my teacher to tell her that this girl was doing bad things to me in the bathroom and i didn't like what she was doing. Now what i don't understand is that my teacher didn't believe me and told me that i was lying and not to make up stories and went as far as to make that girl my bathroom buddy (cause everyone went in groups of two) so now that we had groups of two people in the bathroom at a time she had tons of times to do it. so now that my teacher bacially called me a liar i also became affraid to tell my parents. so it went on for a whole year until the summer came and school was out. What a releaf but soon came 3rd grade and she was in the same class again boy was i devestated when i saw her walk inot the class room. Thank god it didn't go on everyday like the year before because now i just never went to the bathroom unless i absolutly had to and thats when she would corner me. Then in the middle of the school year she moved away and i never heard from her again. Up until i was about 20 years old is when i finally broke down and told my parents. Both of them cried and said they where sorry that i was unable to go to them. Then when i was 20 years old I got raped by a so-called friend the guy next door so now i'm really screwed up. thinking that i've got everything put behind me its all starting to creep out especially when i try to get intimate with my partner every time it seems that i get all tensed up and my partner can sense that and it pretty much can put a damper on a very good situation which is really starting to affect our sex life. I went to counseling once and thought i was okay and ended my sessions but now its all coming back agin or i dont know if it ever went away i just fill stuck.

February 13, 2000
11:13 pm
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melon
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Mindless...you are NOT mindless!!!! As a teacher and a mom I think it was rape and abuse! Abuse of innocence..Rape of your innocence and trust, violation of the student/teacher relationship and the stupidest thing an adult can do to a child. GET TO A COUNSELOR YOU CAN TRUST AND WORK THIS OUT. What sould you think it was if it happened to your daughter or your little sister?

Jae...you also need to go back to the counselor and keep working. as women we need to work this kind of stuff out so we don't let it affect our children...make and female in the future.

February 14, 2000
10:00 am
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mindless
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yes - I understand what most of you are saying. I understand that I am being as mindless to let others decide for me but I just can't see my way through interpreting what happened. A big part of me is just so hating of pigish males for thinking that their need for sex makes all of their other actions ok. this was a very decent man in all respcts-well educated-very articulate and always put achedemia above all else - except in morings and evening when he would sodomize me ove and over agian. The numbness would stay- I just phazes out - why wouldn't I stop? What was ok about it-m I think i just needed relief from hom,e life and he knew - so he didn't have intercouse. i gues i'm luckyt. but in other repsect i'm not sure when ever i try to see myself clear to feelings of "growing up" I can't rely on my own feeling because of the parental situation and the :"good" feeling were of someone who just needed to sodomize me- so what was wron with that
? he never even stuck fingers in me - never did stuff like that- never even asked for anything else - so that'[s good - but still -so i appreciate your input. i don't even know why i'm so scared of this

February 14, 2000
10:24 am
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hazza
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Mindless,
I am a little unclear what this man did to you, You say he sodomised you. This means that he had penatrative anal sex with you, which is intercourse. WHy do you say he did not have intercourse with you if he did have anal sex with you?

February 14, 2000
2:13 pm
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mindless
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now I really am confused. what is iut when someone just does oral sex to you?
?

February 15, 2000
4:08 am
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Hi Mindless,
For a man doing that to a woman it is called Cunnilingus, for a woman doing it to a man it is called Filatio, I don't know if I spelt those right though.
The main issue here is that you now feel that your boundaries were violated and it is causing you upset now you are older. Regardless of the technicalities, you need to be able to process this part of your life and find some peace so that you can move on and learn to enjoy the rest of your life.
I wish you well, take care
Hazza

February 15, 2000
5:11 am
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mindless
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so, is cunnilinges considered rape? Abuse? It bothers me that I can't feel comfortable with the other feelings which were good and that there can be both good and bad in him. I just think all men are pigs but then I think about what I was being taken away from and the inspiration that comes from the good parts. So maybe it isn't so good and I shouldn't feel good about those parts either.

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