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"Waking Up" - First days as a new me
January 23, 2000
10:35 pm
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holly2000
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Hi everyone.
It has been about 1 1/2 weeks since I posted. I went through a crisis recently after suddenly realizing that my life is and has been screwed up for many years. It resulted from a number of stressful events and changes that all occurred close to each other in my life (during and after Christmas this year). I thought it was all bad, but now see that I was just "waking up" after living for so long in denial and pretending, both with myself and in my relationships.
I have come to understand that everything in my life is a result of some choice I have made along the way, and that I am responsible for them all. Whether it was what college to attend, whether or not to accept a man's behaviors, or whether or not to "get mad" or "get depressed", I made all the choices, although I thought many of them were someone else's "fault" or that I had "no choice".
My question is, have any of you had a similar experience? It is truly like having my eyes opened to all the dysfunctional, codependent, destructive behaviors and thought processes I have been living with since high school. And now that I'm married I realize that my patterns have to be changed in order to avoid destroying my marriage too. I can see clearly how my past (parents, etc), my self-image and self-esteem, my personality, and my desires have all directly affected every major (and minor) decision I have ever made, have controlled my choice of men (and my dependence on them for happiness and fulfillment) and have brought me to this point in my life.
It is up to me to take this new understanding and make conscious changes in my own behavior and thought patterns. I have to be ready to accept negative reactions from my husband and other people in my life, and I have to know that the changes may affect the outcome of my marriage. I hope they serve to bring us closer and create more intimacy, but they may reveal me "as I really am" to my husband, and he may not be able to accept it.
I am terrified. He is coming back into town on Wednesday, after being absent for work the whole time I have been going through the crisis and re-examination of myself and my marriage. I am going to tell him everything, but start small and not overwhelm him.
Do you have any suggestions? Should I tell him everything (even my fleeting re-attraction to my ex that was a part of this whole thing?)Should I be selective on what to tell him?
I guess whatever happens, happens. But I don't look forward to the possibility of being alone in mid-america at age 29!
Good night,
Holly

January 23, 2000
10:54 pm
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gst
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Holly2000

Congratulations on your waking up. I can't say I'v had that much revelation all at once but it's nice to see someone so up beat rather than feeling beat up! which is how I feel too much of the time.

Also if you are suggesting that you had an affair or something with an ex - my first thought would be extreem caution in talking about something like that. Even when the best meaning people say they are ok with it, there is just something about it that harbors unstableness that most cannot explain. I think you might be kidding yourself. And would suggest considering that love you share is worth not taking the chance it won't be there. Let by gons be by gones - no need to test.

In any event, I'm glad for you.

January 23, 2000
11:13 pm
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holly2000
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Thanks, gst, I think! It's nice to see someone beat up? Yes, I am kind of beating myself up in a way, but am trying to accept my mistakes and learn from them.
About the ex, there was no affair. We just talked on the phone but didn't even see each other in person. We broke up on very bad terms and it was a real "loose end" for me. They say to heal and move on with your life you need to finish things you left undone, such as asking forgiveness from people you have hurt, or finding out the truth behind events that have affected you. He was the former - I dumped him for my husband and lied to him about it, until he found out of course. He needed 2 1/2 years and therapy to get over it, and now we are "friends" as much as that is possible.
But do you think I should even tell my husband that? In a mature, stable relationship, friendships with old flames should be tolerated, if not understood, shouldn't they? I value my connection to the ex and hope that I is OK, as long as we never go beyond that.
I really want to break through the old barriers of pretending and protecting all the time in a struggle to create a "perfect" environment. I want to be honest and open about everything with my husband, and I think keeping secrets from him will only seem "suspicious" if he ever did accidentally find out.
Do you agree? Are there limits to truth-telling? Why should I hide something that is not really wrong? Or is it?
I don't know. I have no experience with being "real". I have always lived in a fantasy world of my own creation when it comes to relationships, and I have no idea what it's like to face "reality" every day on a regular basis!
Thanks for the help,
Holly

January 23, 2000
11:51 pm
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cerry
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Dear Holly2000,

You seem to be waking up and realizing that there should be changes in your life to make you happy. Realizing that you have a choose in your life to be in control of yourself. There is nothing wrong with that. This shows that you are gaining independance. The fact that you did dump your ex and had to tie up loose ends was your choose as an individual as long as it was tying up loose ends. Sometimes we can't go forward until we either end or accept the past. Otherwise it follows us. As far as your husband. I would write down on paper what you want to tell him prior to having this discussion. This shows him that you do care about saving your marriage. Expressing to him tells him that you are being honest with yourself and him and the fact you care for him deeply. I too went through simular experiences with you. I am here to tell you that you are not alone. I have been there but with my situation the communication and trust were not there. If he is understanding he will listen. Be understanding that he might be upset but accept it and maybe not. Do not be judgemental!!!!!or put him down. Telling him that you now have realized a problem and wanting to save your marriage is a great step for the both of you. You should face reality and not live in a fantacy world. Keeping secrets from your husband is not be trustworthy. Trust and Communication are very inportant in any relationship. You must find out who you are and what makes you happy. Discussing this with your husband may bring you closer and more of an understanding of yourself. He may even help you. Make sure though that when you do learn a lesson that you don't repeat the same mistake.
Good luck
Be honest with yourself but most of all take care of you and the rest should fall into place.
Cerry

January 24, 2000
12:59 am
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gst
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Hi holly,

Yes, of course I mean up beat! That's the part that makes everything else worth it.

Sounds like you are the one who will have the best instincts on this and that's what really counts. Sometimes it's not what you do but how you do it that counts. So don't be afraid to trust your own instincts on this.

Especially since it sounds as though the friendship you have with the ex is ongoing. So I'd agree with cerry.

Good luck!

January 24, 2000
9:16 am
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holly2000
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Thanks, Cerry and gst.
Now I get it -"upbeat", not "beat up"! Big difference.

Your advice is valuable, since I have had no experience with "husbands", only "boyfriends", where it wasn't the end of the world if they decided they didn't like my new "me" (I would have thought it was the end of the world, however!) But with my husband there is some risk that he will say, "I can't live with these changes." I don't think he will. I think he may even be helpful as one of you pointed out.

I have been making alot of lists, and plan only to confront him with those things that directly involve him, at least at first. My own personal issues that exist independently of our marriage can be dealt with more in therapy and just told to him as they come up, I guess.

As for the ex, my friendship with him is not a big issue in my opinion. He is very far away, we broke up almost 3 years ago, and talking with him has helped us both to "get over" the past and see that we can't (and don't want to) get back together or recapture old feelings.

It is just unfortunate that he has many traits in common with me, whereas my husband and I are almost opposites. I can talk more easily with the ex than with my husband. That is probably the number 1 thing I want to improve in my marriage. Getting him to open up and have interesting, stimulating talks, not just about our relationship, but about things that interest us.

Anyway, to work I go. I'll check back this pm to see if anyone has anything to add.

Again, many thanks, have a great day.
Holly

January 24, 2000
10:09 am
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kitten
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Holly,

Please be careful about telling him of other men in your life...he might use the information at a later date to hurt you. I know you want to be honest with him--clear the air, but think how you would feel if he told you about wanting other women. Could you ever trust him? What counts is the "now", moving on, and growing. If you want to let go of the past, truly let go of it. Telling him of your fears is important, but hurting him will only compound your problems. You have our blessings and love...and lots of prayers. Good luck!

January 24, 2000
12:23 pm
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Knowing our authentic selves, spiritual & emotional growth are why we are all here, meaning of our lives.
jI have experienced such deep personal revelations as you and it turned my world upside down, or rather cleared away all the foggy filters. You current marriage, your past relationship, were all made under the "old"you. The "new" you as you say, or authentic you, may be seeing your current relationship and your past relationship in their true light, meaning you may be seeing the absence of authentic love and devotion because you are now able to be there more for yourself and let your true self shine in all your relationships from now on, not a facade, which your husband and past mate are used to. I hear a lot of people talking about "saving your marriage" and doing what is right "to save your marriage" but the main priority for you, and should always be, is "saving your soul" being your true authentic self at the possible expense of your current marriage.
It is not true love if you have deceived your husband. Trust and respect will outrule any idea of doing anything that would break his trust of you or respect. You really need to take a look at all your current relationships and see if they are also formed in truth and authentic love.
To live honestly to yourself and others, frees you to love authentically and to have ongoing peace in yourself and in your life.
To honor ourselves is to honor god.
God bless Holly, whatever happens with you and whatever choices you make remember that you are divinely guided and loved. All will work out for the best and highest, for you and your husband.

January 24, 2000
1:03 pm
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gst
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Hi Holly200,

Glad you finally got my play on words!

Another thought comes to mind as I read this. When you mention that the ex is easier to talk with. It might be helpful to keep in mind that he has more to gain by encouraging the relatability. Sad to say but we do sometimes treat our relationships like powerplays and The real questions might be how different was the relatbility while married? Or did it evolve afterward. Again your owns instincts will be best but just a thought.

January 24, 2000
10:29 pm
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holly2000
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I'm not sure I understand your question, gst, about "relatability". Do you mean, can I talk better with my ex now than I could when we were together? The answer is yes and no.

Yes, because he had to go into therapy to get over how badly I had broken up with him (forming a new relationship while telling him it was because of problems we were having and not admitting the existence of someone else.) He has a good way of explaining some of the things I have been going through from a different perspective. He is also a really good listener. Somehow he has finally forgiven me (mostly). Nobody else I know has ever had counseling and he does know me inside and out since we were together 4 years nonstop.

And no, because when we were together we did have lots of problems with communication, we were much more immature, and I was blind to all the dysfunctional behaviors I was repeating with him and in my life.

So, things are very different now, but somehow he and I still have quite a connection. It is rare in life (mine at least) to have someone with whom you can really talk. As it is right now, I do not have that with my husband. He is very immature and unwillling to open up or let me really open up. He wants me to "be" a certain way, and to this point I have complied. But now I'm not going to anymore. I want to be myself, regardless of whether he (or his family) "approve".

So, I guess the real point is, I have a connection with my ex that was "invisible" for a long time (since I have been with my husband, before and after the wedding) but which has now become "visible" again. I had erased him from my memory but this "awakening" brought him right back because I had never really said goodbye to him. I never experienced the sadness over separating from him, so it had to come at some point. Talking with him on the phone has helped me get some closure, but at the same time has kind of re-connected us, in a more mature way (I think).

I believe that I am both "getting over my ex" as well as "not refusing to be friends with him" just because I am married.
Is that possible? Is that OK, if my husband understands? I have no intention of cheating on my husband - the ex is over - but do I have to give up one of the few people in my life who truly understands me? That doesn't seem fair. It is too hard to come by, believe me, I have been looking without success (in the form of women friends.)

I don't know how all of you fare out there "in the real world." My experience as a fairly shy person has been that the older I get, the harder it is to make real friends, and the less motivation I have to do so. I have a few people whom over the years have been consistent (we have not ended up hating each other!) and to whom I still talk regularly. But, there are not many, at all.

What if one of them is my ex?? Is something wrong with me? Why do I hesitate to cut him out of my life now that we have "reconciled" the past? Am I secretly hoping to keep him "interested" in case my marriage doesn't make it through my upcoming "transition"? Am I secretly trying to establish some kind of relationship to use as an excuse to end my marriage? Do I really see him as a friend, or more of a "way out"? I am afraid to think those possibilities, but all of you are probably already thinking them. How can I know for sure what is going on? I don't trust my own judgment, since every decision I have ever made has been based on something other that "my gut feelings". I usually make decisions based on men!

Help! I have a therapy appointment Thursday. Should I keep it or cancel it? I don't know if I need it!!??

January 24, 2000
11:15 pm
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gst
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mmm, nice girl!

Just kidding 2000,

I use relatability to mean the same thing as relationship.

Via the rest? I just think that growing and understanding yourself etc. doesn't mean that you have some secret self that is seperate and distinct from "real life". I think understanding yourself means just that. For instance: I know that I have both a sense of dependency and a sense of independence. I know that while I will commit my sole to a women at the moment, I will also need a very long rope because I unfortunately need to test, experiment and se how much things can take, including feelings and relationships. But then I will long to feel the tug of the rope and if I get too far away, I will drift. In all actualit, I know that means I am really wholly controlling. And I know that is so. but that's me.

So knowing this, it is up to me to also understand that if I find myself in the presence of someone who is controling in bad ways,(I mostly like to be controlled in the bedroom but clearly not when I close the door behind me - but that's me, I have no problem with it because I know thats part of my core self) or who doesn't have a "tough' hide or who is too "smother nmother", I know I eventually won't let it work. The clearer you are on what you value most, the better you will be. It's all trade offs I think. So I start with what do I value more. Easy at first but takes lots of thought.

Do you change - relative to what you want more, the hard part is the understanding part.

Yes definitely go. The two of you you and your counselor) will know when you don't "need" to or not. Possibly the key is what you want as the outcome of your (you and your counselor) relationship.

Aren't you glad you asked - Writing this only took 7 hours - yes, I'm kidding.

Bye for now and good luck, I hope all of that was helpful.

January 25, 2000
1:37 am
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gst
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Hi again 2000,

To clarify further, since your ex has a weaker position to your current by the law of human relationships (I made that up myself) he would be required to go out of his way tom win your favor. The appearance to you is that he is easier to relate to. he makes himself that way because of your current. Sound too militaristic? I just think that's the way boys are. Oh well.

I was also wondering. When you mentioned you felt as though you always defined yourself relative to men, were you thinking men were different? I would be very interested to know.

January 25, 2000
9:12 am
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gst - I don't get your last question "Were you thinking men were different"? Do you mean to say that men also define themselves by women? If they do, I have never met one of them. I have always been the one who compromises, changes, accepts, adapts to what HE wants and needs, in order to "keep" him, or to keep him from ever being angry with me. I have put my feelings and interests and personality under the rug, but see now that they only stay there for so long. Eventually they do come out, and when they do I usually end up destroying the relationship. That's why I want to get them out now, before they build up again. That's why I'm afraid, that my husband (and other important people in my life) will "not know me" anymore or that they won't like me "how I really am". I'm not saying my real self is bad - it isn't - I've just hidden parts of myself for so long.
And that's why I'm going to counseling - because I don't think I have the skills to do this successfully on my own, but it has to work because my marriage depends on it!

January 25, 2000
12:32 pm
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Holly,

congratulations, you have made a big step forward for yourself. But don't cancel therapy now, because you have still a lot of changing to do. You seem to know fairly well, where you want to go, but a therapist can help you to get there safely.

Best wishes to you. Eve

January 25, 2000
12:45 pm
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gst
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Hi Holly,

I guess I was thinking about the way men always refer to things as "her", Cars, boats, weather etc, Even something as straight forward as a hammer or tennis racket. "She really feels great today"!"She's a beauty" etc., etc,

But I think I understand what you mean. It must be very exciting for you to beging feeling some of these things. What do you think you are you enjoying most about these revelations?

January 25, 2000
2:57 pm
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This is so great! I have people to talk to and I don't have to feel guilty for "taking up their time" or "bringing them down with my problems". You all are responding because you want to, so I know I don't have to worry about it.

Anyway, gst, yes, I am very excited about these changes. Mostly it's because I can see my future as being more under my control, or at least more "in my best interest". I will be conscious of the choices I make from now on, instead of being pulled in every direction by people I want to like me or accept me. I know that if I do learn how to change my habits, and some better social / interpersonal skills, I will probably be alot happier in general, have less anxiety and depression, and maybe even more friends.

HOWEVER, at this point I am all talk. I have not talked to a therapist about all of this, nor to my husband, and I don't really know HOW to make it all work. I'm afraid that I will easily slip back into my old codependent and needy ways, and let outside influences control how I feel. So yes, I will go back to the therapist and try to see what to start with, how to go about it, and how to keep my husband from resisting it too much.

I went to one therapist, but he discounted my feelings and "gave me advice" which is not what I need. I felt like he was just another man seeing a woman's problems as PMS, seasonal-affective disorder, lack of "serotonin", etc. Now I have another "first" appointment with a woman, so hopefully she will understand more of where I'm coming from.

Has anyone read some of Harriet Lerner's work? I really relate to her ideas about how society teaches women to restrain their emotions, look out for everyone else, be perfect, do everything, try to please men, and avoid conflict. I have been doing all those things since I was about 12. Hard to change, but necessary in my case!

January 25, 2000
6:14 pm
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gst
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Hi 2000,

That's very intriguing. What do you think it best to start with. What do you think should be first?

January 25, 2000
6:44 pm
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I think number one is working on myself. Maybe some of the other issues (in my marriage, with my husband, with the ex, etc) will improve naturally if I change my behavior and / or perception of things.
???

January 25, 2000
6:59 pm
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gst
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holly2000,

That's very brave. But what about your behavior would you like most to change?

January 25, 2000
10:37 pm
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Well, I would most like to be more courageous / confident in all situations. I am shy and sometimes afraid to try new things or talk to new people. I isolate myself alot, and it takes a long time to get to know me. One on one I have no trouble, but in general social settings I don't do that well. I have low self-esteem and image for some reason, so that needs to improve also.

Second, I want to NOT repeat the damaging "cycle of pain" I have been repeating since high school. That is, keeping an unhappy relationship stringing along until someone better comes along, then unceremoniously dumping the old one for the new one. It is evil and disrespectful, no matter how many problems we were having. I see that pattern starting to emerge in my marriage, and I want to nip it in the bud, as Barney would say.

Third, I want to improve myself, by developing my interests and getting new ones. I want to stop feeling limited, unmotivated, bored, or helpless. I don't want the fact that my husband and I have different interests cause me to abandon mine! I have done that up to now, and it SUCKS!

Other than that, everything is hunky dory. My session is on Thursday and my husband comes home tomorrow, so I should have lots of juicy info and more confusion from those!

How about you, gst, why are you here? It's nice to think you are here just to help lost souls like me, but I doubt that is the case!

January 26, 2000
12:10 am
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gst
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Hi 2000

All of that in itself already seems courageous. I am very impressed with your undertakings.

Didn't know I was helping per say, but glad if it is.

Just trying to find my way to Berkley campus or something. That's where I should perhaps have aimed myself originally. Oh well.

But I am interested to know how you think your husband will play a part in helping you with this? Good luck with your session on Thursday by the way)

January 26, 2000
9:20 am
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I guess I'm hoping I can change my life at home. For example, I do ALL the housework and take care of everything. All he does is go to work and come home. He is in the army, so often his job is very hard, especially when they are "in the field" practicing war games for days on end in the freezing cold. I have felt guilty or inappropriate asking him to help me much. But, like I said, eventually resentment builds up over the imbalance, and it comes out in all sorts of aspects of our life.
Also, he is distant. I never feel like he is listening when I really want to talk, so I just keep it in or talk to family or friends. I feel like he is content keeping things on a superficial level and never going deeper into anything. He is like a brick wall alot of the time. I need to be close to him and feel like he cares how I feel or what I have to say. All of that hinges greatly on my level of self-esteem, my status as "being myself", and my security in my marriage.
So, he has alot to do with many parts of my changes, but not all of them of course. I can't expect him to fix everything, that's why I said I have to work on myself primarily.
Anyway, good luck getting to Berkeley. That place is awesome!

January 26, 2000
11:08 am
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Hi 2000,

Interesting undertaking. A lot of work. Do you think your expected result is more a self esteem issue or more a shared loving caring issue?

When you say berkley is awsome, what do you find awsome about it, dfferent people have different perspectives.

January 26, 2000
11:51 pm
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Dear Holly,

I have been reading your threads and noting alot of what you are saying is that you want control of your life. From the readings it appears that seem to be slightly confused at times as to where and what you should be doing first.
In my opinion, from you thread you want to change the past. You state the new you, but what is the new you? What have you actually done to make changes? As far as your husband , it appearts that he is in control of you. Who cares what the family thinks. Are you going to go out of your way to make others happy and not yourself? Learn more about you and want you want for and in your life. Be honest with yourself. It appears that you make everyone happy but your not. If you are not happy with your husband I do think you should talk to him IF HE LISTEN. You state that half the time he doesn't listen. Do what you want to do. If its school, job, creative arts, do something for you. When you are happy with yourself then the pieces will fall into place. As far as the ex, yes you can be friends but you are married and have made a promise to your husband. This relationship is based not only love but trust, understandind and communication. I would advise to go to your counsellor, and stay away from the ex as you stated, "am I trying to use this as an excuse to get out. Deal with the first issue, your husband. If it does not work out, then give yourself time. Don't go rushing into another relationship. Find out who you are. When it is time, and you feel you do want to keep intouch with you ex, you'll find him like you did before. Before you make a decsion try see if you can save this marriage.
Does this make sense?
Take care
Cerry

February 11, 2000
4:49 am
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gst
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Hi 2000,

How are things coming along?

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