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U.S.A. Citizens - Did you vote? Check Here.
November 8, 2004
8:26 pm
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Anonymous
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"Sacred Family Structure"

Utahgirl, I would be backing you up 150% if there ever was such a thing as a "Sacred Family Structure" common to our culture.

One could say that in the good ole days, let's say, 100 years ago, we didn't have all this fuss about gays and such. A man married a woman and off they went to make their way and build their families. Wholesome. Sacred. Right...

What we don't think about is the fact that it was alright to beat your wife and children bloody. It was alright for Uncle So-and-So or daddy, or his friends to "break in little Jenny" and teach her about the "ways of the world" because what went on behind closed doors was no one else's business.

In my job, I deal with the "Sacred Family Structure" every single day. I hear children tell stories of being ganged raped at one of Daddy's parties. I hear sons talking about being knocked unconscious for trying to take a beating that their mothers were getting. Babies die horrible deaths, full of fractures, bruises and cigarette burns.

"Sacred Family Structure" is possible. It is a personal choice to create a "Sacred Family" and it takes a lot of hard work, blood, sweat, and tears to create it. Not many people have ever been willing to work that hard. Not 100 years ago. Not today.

What I hope to communicate is that it is the individuals within a family unit who make it or break it. It isn't about religion. It isn't about morality. It isn't about legality. It is about love.

My family is sacred. How do I know this? Because my partner, my children, and I have created it. My son's girlfriend lives with us. She is my child. I am her mother. I was proud to hear her on Nov. 2nd, talking to a couple of men who came by to see if we needed a ride to the polls. "My moms are going to vote!" she proclaimed, as she referred to my partner and me.

Respectfully,

Ren'ai

November 8, 2004
8:58 pm
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Ok Utah Girl, you are missing the point.

There's a BIG problem in the church, especially in the priesthood, of child molestation. This goes back to the Middle Ages when monks had relations with young novices. The reasons for this can be many, too complicated to get into. The sexual orientation (gay or straight) or child molesters is irrelevent- it's an offense because it's with a child. Period. Anyone out there have any figures? Cause I'd be willing to bet the numbers of sex offenders is a little higher on the HETERO side.

My point was that it is ironic for church groups not to see this in their own institution and then worry what two consenting adults are doing in their own homes. It defies common sense, and it is an invasion of privacy and denial of a basic civil right. Some day, people will realize how barbaric this restriction is.

-ella

November 8, 2004
9:18 pm
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btw- Utah girl- I and many others, was the unfortunate victim of in appropriate sexual behaviors by adults in the so called "sacred family unit." That's right, my christian hetero dad, and my church going grandmother are only examples of what can hide behind such facades, so if you are going to pretend that "traditional family values" are any more wholesome than a loving family that contains two loving consentual homosexual partners... there's probably and endless population of people who are living examples of the fallacy in that. Unfortunately, my family is not that unique, and our situation not even as dysfunctional as many.

-ella

November 8, 2004
9:31 pm
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Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same. a homosexual who abuses a child is a pedophile. a heterosexual who abuses a child is a pedophile. Homosexuality and pedophilia are two very different things, not related in any way shape or form. I am certain of this.

I do understand the movement towards bringing back morals into our culture. Our country was founded on Christian principles and morality. It is the foundation of our country.

But to use Christian morality as a means to deny homesxuality, well I see a great deal of hypocrisy there.

Heterosexual married people, many, engage in sexual intercourse not for the sole purpose of procreation. They participate in sado-masochism even at the light levels- tying each other up, spanking, etc. They participate in anal intercourse, fellatio, cunninglingus. These are not "Christian things" to the best of my knowledge. These are not okay, but nobody knows, so under the guise of heterosexual marriage, they happen. And these people judge homosexuals for engaging in the exact same behavior.

Furthermore, most states have common law marriage. Two heterosexuals can live together and doink nightly outside of marriage, and while the Christian sector does not condone that, these couples are able to enjoy the benefits of marriage, including tax breaks.

I dunno. The argument to preserve the sanctity of marriage is weak to me. If marriage is a religious thing, then it has no business being protected OR attacked by government. That is a violation of separation church and state. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Religious tax breaks- abolish them.

Send the matter to the states. We have "domestic partners" in CA. You can register and recieve benefits that married couples enjoy. That's fair.

free

November 8, 2004
9:37 pm
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"If marriage is a religious thing, then it has no business being protected OR attacked by government. That is a violation of separation church and state. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Religious tax breaks- abolish them."

AMEN AMEN AMEN!!!!

November 8, 2004
9:50 pm
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"Homosexuality and pedophilia are not the same. a homosexual who abuses a child is a pedophile. a heterosexual who abuses a child is a pedophile. Homosexuality and pedophilia are two very different things, not related in any way shape or form. I am certain of this."

That was my point to Utah Girl and also relating to your statement "the Boy Scouts don't want gay leaders, and neither do many churches and private religious schools. It goes against their fundamental teaching."

I would agree that gay or straight marraige should not be protected or attacked by government. Except that one already is protected and the other currently attacked. So which is it? Do we take away the protection/privelege offered to hetero marrieds, or do we offer the same to homosexual couples? Cause it seems like this isn't just going to die with the election.

-ella

November 8, 2004
9:54 pm
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free- the domestic partners thing sounds cool to me! fair enough.
-ella
p.s. YOU should run for office. 🙂

November 8, 2004
10:13 pm
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I would vote for her! And some others here.

November 8, 2004
10:38 pm
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me too! Free truly follows the beat of her own drum. Which is more than I can say of ANY politician.

-ella

November 9, 2004
12:07 am
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I guess I am still a naive Utah girl. I grew up in a great home and community. No one ever sexual abused me or my siblings. I guess I see where I live the ideal family every day. At least on the surface. I know that bad things do happen. But I guess I come from a different background then you guys come from and I am being "educated".

Mxrella, The Catholic church priesthood may have a problem with abuse issues but not all churches have these issues. The holders of the priesthood in the "mormon" faith do not usually(key word)have a problem like the Catholic church. I had to defend the idea of priesthood since it is so sacred to me.

It is sad that the Catholic church is not really dealing with this issue. I think if you put more pedophile in jail they might stop their ugly and awful behavior. Life sentences might stop this horrendous epidemic. Too many people get hurt!!!

November 9, 2004
12:33 am
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Utah Girl-

Yeah, I totally agree about the life sentences. Luckily for me, what took place in my family wouldn't even be considered abnormal by some. It wasn't sex as anyone would define it, but there are different types of molestation. This is more material for another thread, and is being discussed on someone else's currently.

Yes, these things go on, and you can be certain they go on in mormon families as well as catholic. Certainly this is NOT an attack on your faith, please don't take it as one. I'm talking about INDIVIDUALS or groups that use their faith to justify condemning others without examining the basis of their arguement. Incest, abuse, etc... know no cultural, class, gender, racial or ethnic barries it seems. This kind of sickness is an equal opportunity destroyer. That is why it is fruitless to argue that one group's morality can presume to know what would be in the best interest for all.

I only brought this up in the first place because Free mentioned the groups that are wary of gays- which I saw as being rooted in their ignorance since being gay has nothing to do with a proclivity for abusing children. So for all those trying to weed people out of their boy scout troups, sports teams, and who think married gays are a "bad example for the kids," well I was simply trying to point out the atrocious examples they may have in their very own churches and homes. People in stained glass houses...
shouldn't through stones.

-ella

November 9, 2004
1:30 am
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Well, some of these posts are really great for my ego, but I would be a terrible politician as I'd have to call for the execution of all mean people, especially rapists and wife beaters. Just kiddin'. I think the boy scouts and churches oppose homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle and don't want it taught or modeled in their organizations. They do this on religious grounds. I tend to doubt that these convictions will change. I really do. So be it. I wouldn't expect the Amish to welcome me, my mini van, and my computer into their little community.

But what should change is the protection and benefits that married people enjoy. Unless all domestic couples can enjoy them. Otherwise, they should be abolished. I really rend towards the abolishment. The whole marriage thing is causing Debate at the federal level that is religious based and that's just wrong. The whole marriage thing really does need to be re-vamped. It is not a sanctity anymore, not like it used to be. The legal system, entrance of women in the workforce, women's rights, all these things, have changed our country and what marriage is.

Marriage today is a partnership. It is not a life committment under God and the church. It is a contract that culture says can be voided if one party feels it should be.

It is not a religious contract. That is a lie. You do not have to married in a church. Or by a minister or "man of the cloth." You can be married in my front room by a justice of the peace who recites the vows you write, claiming no religious affiliation whatsoever. You can drink each other's blood in the ceremony, use statanic masks, dress in white or go nude. And still, recieve the benefits of marriage in our country, as long as you are heterosexual. So, if we allow all this, then how can we say it is a religious sanctity? That is not the reality, the way I see it.

Marriage is a partnership, and our culture is defining it. It's time the laws catch up. It's a partnership between two consenting adults.

And ya know, I so agree with the statement that this issue is not gonna go away.

Not until some tolerance for differences develops.

free

November 9, 2004
8:51 am
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ahealthierme
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I am still stuck on the concept of the "Sacred Family Structure." Who has the right to say what the Sacred Family Structure is and what it entails. Is the Sacred Family Structure only a man, woman, two children, dog, cat, and white picket fence. I have yet to see this Sacred Family Structure in any family.

November 9, 2004
10:06 am
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Goodmorning everybody.

Well, as a side note to all of this, I wanted to say that today is the first day I am feeling 1/2 of my old self again. The election and human rights issues, have been a real grieving process for me. Today is the first day I have yet to cry. But I have now grieved sufficiently to begin moving on and finding more ways to bridge gaps.

I'm so glad people are still talking here about the issues. Let this thread become another "coffeehouse" for politics I say. There are large gaps of understanding in the US today, and the only way to figure them out, is to keep talking.

Peace.

November 9, 2004
10:28 am
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Dear SC,

I know this has been hard for you and that you are grappling with these issues and dealing with it as best you can. I thank you for your insight and your compassion and I am happy to hear you are feeling better. I think what you propose is a wonderful idea and I also think (I speak for myself) that we can all learn alot from this point on concerning this world we live in and empower ourselves to do just that.Hope that makes sense!

Hugs to you!!

Sunny

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