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To Ladeska
September 20, 2001
10:43 am
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lover2000
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Ladeska,

You seemto be very insightful. Anytime, I read one of your posts,it leaves me thinking. Now,I've got a question, in reference to my thread "She's Driving ME Crazy." I've finally told her she had a few days, and then couldn't stay anymore, because she was really making me lose my mind. Why then do I feel so bad. I feel like this terrible person because now, she's acting just as nice as she can. She's on her best behavior. At the present, she seems like if she stayed she wouldn't be a burden anymore. What do you think?

September 20, 2001
10:58 am
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Ladeska
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Hi...I'm glad you find some insight in what I write. I think it's great to have this place where we can all exchange views, life experiences and just be "real".

As far as your question is concerned - You're definitely intertwined with a charmer and she's quite abusive. Of course, she's going to be a good little girl now. She gets great power out of making people feel guilty and playing the victim. Don't fall for it, not for a minute. I affectionately call these people - spiders, especially the women who do this.

But, they are the best at their game and you have to realize this and get as far away from this as is possible and do it quick. They basically just like to toy with people while they are getting what they need for the moment otherwise.

Obviously, the other person had good reasons for kicking her to the curb as well. Hearing her story is one thing, but I dare say - the other side would be rather interesting and familiar to you at this point.

Why do you feel guilty? Because you have believed the side of her that is charming and you're having trouble connecting what you now know - to who you believed she was. That's normal. We all stand back and gasp when this hits us in the face and quite often - we say - no, this can't be the way it is - it's my responsibility to try and fix this, make it better and basically - make the uncomfortable feeling - go away.

Well, it won't go away. It's your inbuilt alarm system saying - Warning, Warning, Danger! Listen to it and get away from this woman. We don't have to have a computer printout as to how and why they are the way they are. If we did that with a mugger on the street - guess what? We'd be in big trouble.

You have to react and do so in a way that is Pro-You. We are quite naive with people like this, especially if we've never been wrapped up with them in a relationship of some kind where we are close into them. It's rather shocking....

But, people who are quite wicked at their core - have an extremely good facade on the outside that they can run and put up to people rather well. But, the proof in the pudding comes when you see them close up and on a daily basis. Then....you see who they really are.

Regardless of what you could label her - she just needs to be away from you and I'd not be - trusting her ever again either. You don't owe her an explanation as to why. She will only want to do circular reasoning with you and you'll end up rather confused and feeling even more guilty. That would be her plan. Don't go there.

You have a right to your boundaries without telling anyone why. It's none of their business. She's narcissistic and you only exist to do her bidding for whatever reasons she needs you for. Sure she can do a few tasks of being a friend - charmers do that and wait until you're all sucked in and then....guess what? You owe me now, so take whatever I dish out to you. Wrong.

You've learned a valuable lesson here. And over time it will behoove you to look back over your relationship for tell-tell signs of who she really is. Is rather eye-popping when the shades are off your eyes.

I have had my fill of people like this and cannot even begin to tell you how good they are at what they do. They depend upon your "goodness" and they cap on it. You are the one with the conscience, but they don't have one. So, to them - you are not to be respected and are considered much weaker than them. Time to set that straight and keep it straight.

Kick her out and hold your boundary high. Say what you mean and mean what you say. She's poison.

September 20, 2001
12:26 pm
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Ladeska
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Charmers - Flatter in order to disarm you and make you feel like you owe them. It’s also done to condition you so that you get used to it, want it, seek it, so that when you don’t get it - you know you’re being punished for something.

They do things for you, that you don’t even ask them to do because they are building up a savings account with you - one that will accrue much more interest than you are aware of or would have signed up for. They may deposit in six months worth of “things” they do for you and when they are ready to start withdrawing from that account - they will ask of you - things that will not only suck you dry, but might endanger you as well. They will go way over the mark of what they put into the account originally. But, they count on your “goodness”, your guilty conscience of not being - a enough good friend. And if you wince or protest - they will attack you viciously, reprimand you harshly - how dare you - I have always loved you, I would never do this or that, shame on you for treating me this way after all I have done for you! Oh My GOD - how can you even think this???? If you back away - they will then pet you for being such a good little subject....now, now, isn’t that better? See how nice I can be to you when you behave yourself and do my bidding?

They do NOT like being called on the carpet. Can be quite the beast from hell when you do that. But, will often profess how humble they are and will take the hit about little things and “appear” to be so willing to admit anything! But, the truth is - they have erected an image in their own mind about who they are so they can stomach themselves on a daily basis!! So, when you bring the truth - front and center - this false self image they have spent so much time on building starts to tremble and threatens to collapse, thus exposing them totally and causing them much pain in the process. This is an act of war from you to them. Even though - they have down quite a bit to you. Doesn’t matter, they have all that validated in their own mind anyway, so you’re wrong the minute you open your mouth. They will transfer instantly - all their blame onto you. You made them feel this pain - so you are the enemy. And every time you expose more of who they are - they feel more pain and they will attack you even harder and with more punch.

In their mind - their pain is all that matters, so the fact that they lash out at you and hurt you - doesn’t matter at all to them. You have it coming and that’s the end of it.

They will tell you often and to the point of excess - how much they love you, depend on you, think highly of you, etc., etc. The key phrase here is - to the point of excess. You are constantly flooded with this, either in words, or written in cards, or letters or gifts. It’s showy, it’s in your face, but it works, at least temporarily - and charmers don’t think in terms of “permanent” anything. So, if it only lasts for awhile - that’s good enough for their purposes. And if they happen to string you along for years - even better yet! They just consider you Dumb and Dumber and suck you even drier.

Any of this sound familiar?

September 20, 2001
2:31 pm
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Ladeska
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September 20, 2001
3:43 pm
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lover2000
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Thanks Ladeska, as I stated you always can give insight that even now has me thinking. The second part does sound familiar. I had a "best" friend in college who used to treat me like crap. He basically did what he knew he could get away with. Then, one day I decided not to take it anymore. I put my foot down, but I felt sorry for him when he told me how depressed he was because he had no friends. I accepted him once more as a friend and he seemed to be acting all right, but gradually he became himself, accept when I saw the transformation getting ready to take place, I nipped it in the bud, and put him in his place. Sometimes, I wonder what about me attracts these knuckle heads?

September 20, 2001
4:07 pm
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Ladeska
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Was one or both of your parents manipulative with you?

September 20, 2001
4:29 pm
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Ladeska
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Usually, it's a pattern of living that you've learned because you've been behavior modified somewhere along the way - most probably when you were young. Those imprints seem to stick really well and we don't question them. We assume it's because of something else - usually something in the present or someone in the present.

It may have to do with you needing love, attention and guidance from a particular figure - and your relationship was twisted into the thing of - you have to forever earn it and are made to feel guilty when you don't act the way they want you to. If they hurt you - then you should feel the guilt and to hell with "your pain" kind of thing. You caused it, you're to blame, you are responsible for making me - the one who hurt you - feel better.

So, if this position in life feels comfortable to you or you find yourself here more than not - chances are good - you learned how to behave this way early on with someone. And as a child - we need alot of things, so we will work extra hard to get what we need from whomever - even by being quite excessive compulsive about it.

Mice ring the black bell for cheese (even though it is poison) because they have been taught - is is food. But, if they could talk - they might not have a clue - where they learned this or how it was taught to them, they just do it - instinctively.

When children only have a few people in their life that need to give them love and nurture wellbeing - they become very dependent upon them. Therefore, if they are twisted in some way - the symbol for love and friend - may become distorted to represent "who they were". So, when you see someone like this - you go OH - Friend, good person - when in all reality - it isn't at all. But, in "your reality" it is. You're drawn to them and don't know why, feels normal to you.

You will also be compelled to "fix the past" through role playing with this person.... At long last, maybe I can fix what was wrong with this person in my past through this person standing in front of me and win their love and/or friendship, respect, etc.

Make any sense?

September 20, 2001
4:51 pm
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Ladeska
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A good website to check out:

http://www.newharbinger.aa.psi.....+aa0033540

Go to the self esteem exercise, where it talks about your "critic".

September 20, 2001
8:17 pm
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lover2000
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Ladeska, I just checked out that sight that you told me to. That was excellent, thanks! How did you know that would be as beneficial to me as it has been. I don't know what I'd do without your guidance sometimes. My "friend", she's preparing to leave either tonight or tomorrow. We've spoken on the issue and it just isn't working. I've gotten much support from friends and family concerning this matter and that has made it easier to deal with. A friend of mine, he took counseling with me last semester and he told me that I can be too agreeable, at least that's what he interprets from my gestures (ie nodding when spoken to). I didn't realize it. Is that an unconcious sign of something even deeper than the present circumstances as you discussed previously? He also said, I tend to be too accepting in letting people mistreat me. And that's true. He's trying to work with me on it because I've been abused and so has he. But, he's been getting better since the counseling. Me, I am getting better with certain parts of my life, but there are still some other issues that I have yet to deal with that seemingly hinder my life's progress daily. Of course I try not to show it but it really hurts. He was mentally abused, and on rare occasions physically abused throughout his childhood. Me on the other hand, I have been physically, mentally, and sexually abused. I'm dealing with it now because I'm a survivor and I know I'm gonna make it. It will hurt for a while but I'm getting there. He suggested that I see the counselor once more, he's been a very good friend throughout this ordeal. Friends like him, and I have another friend (it's a trio and we're best friends), they let me know that everyone isn't evil, that there are some good people. You too, you let me know that there are people who really care in this world. Thanks for letting me vent to you, it helps more than you could ever know.

September 21, 2001
10:55 am
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Ladeska
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lover2000....well, I suspected the abuse part...thanks for sharing that here. Believe me - I understand. I am a victim of the same. There's alot that goes into the webwork concerning why you react to situations the way you do. You've been trained, conditioned by what you grew up in. There is a "real" you that's under there somewhere that hasn't even been able to flex his wings yet because he is unknown by you. Hasn't had the opportunity to be properly introduced yet...(smile) but that time is coming.

Sexual abuse is something men are taught - not to talk about. It defeats the male image, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, well - the destruction all that poison does trapped inside a person pretty much does a number on the male image as well. Therefore, we better start talking about it. We better start looking at it because the male figures in this country are falling by the wayside and I'm sure this is one reason for it. This plague is far greater than the statistics report. And we wonder why we don't have husbands and fathers that step up to the plate...? I don't wonder.

It's an insidious virus that permeates everything it touches if it goes unhealed and stays closed up away from anything full of life that deals with truth and health. How can a man be a true leader in his family, in this nation if he is carrying around this incredible wound? He can't. Pure and simple.

I have a book for you that may help you. It's called People of the Lie by Dr. Scott Peck. Can pick it up in most bookstores in the psychology section. Read it slowly.....

The fact that you are here says alot about you, that you are posturing yourself at the doorway saying - I want to be healthy, I want out of this spin cycle and I will do the work required.

I am so glad you have your buds to rely upon. You guys stick together. You will need each other in the days to come. Stand tough with this woman and watch your back. No....not everyone is evil. You've just got to get your radar fixed....(smile)

September 21, 2001
3:46 pm
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lover2000
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Hey, it's me again. Now I am pleased to report that I have started recovering. I am presently taking over the counter drugs for stress (ie St. John's Wort & Kava Kava). In doing this I have felt a sense of ease. Maybe I need to stay with these for a while? I don't know what will happen once I stop taking the pills, but tommorrow holds a battle all its own, so I won't worry. My life philosophy is "Live for today! Today is a gift and that's why we call it the present."

Thanks Ladeska

September 21, 2001
5:28 pm
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Ladeska
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Um...St. John's Wort and Kava Kava don't normally work "that fast". Must be a placebo for you. (smile) Whatever works I guess. Recovery is going to mean more than taking meds....I hope you are feeling better and have some resolve - because of something other than just this....

Sometimes, abuse victims - go into a state of numb for awhile because that's the way they have escaped in the past - by not being "home".... We are so good at that, slap on the happy face and skip down the bunny trail for awhile until something else smacks us in the face and we're right back to square one..."again".

Just trying to do a reality check here. If the pills bring you comfort - then by all means take them. I have heard Kava Kava can be quite toxic to your system though, so read up on that.

But, try to advance one foot ahead of the other one a little more each day and keep asking questions, seeking answers, wisdom, knowledge and the will to undo patterns. 'Kay?

September 21, 2001
6:20 pm
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Ladeska
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I wrote something for you just now and wish you a good weekend as well...

***************************

The will to live means
that I will take the blinders off
realizing that I may be struck blind
in order to see.
The world is dimensional
and so am I.

The will to live means
that I will allow myself to weep
over the lies I have believed and forgive myself for being human and needing those lies - once upon a time.

The will to live means
having courage isn’t an accessory
I wear, but a necessity I can’t live without.
And if I leave integrity at home - courage won’t do me much good either.

The will to live means
I may end up with no one on my side
but me....and that’s enough if everyone else
was my enemy to begin with.

The will to live means
I pick, I choose - who comes into my circle and who doesn’t and anyone who doesn’t like the fact that I have a choice - can bite me.

The will to live means
my canvas is empty until “I Paint” something on it because I have stripped it clean of everything
people told me to paint because
they were told......what to paint.....

The will to live means
every day - is another beginning
for everything that is important in life lies in the journey itself.

The will to live means
nothing is written until
I write it...... sing it.....dance it......paint it....

Otherwise, I have never lived at all.

September 23, 2001
4:50 pm
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lover2000
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Thanks, Ladeska! The only other thing I wanna know now, is if my going back to smoking is due to the stress I was under. I had quit smoking for 6 months and now, I'm back smoking. My craving for the cigarettes just snuck up on me out of nowhere. I'm not the heavy smoker I once was, but I feel as though even 2-3 cigarettes a day is bad. It still messes with yur health, and it can still end up causing lung cancer. I don't know, I just feel so relaxed when I smoke.

September 24, 2001
10:40 am
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Ladeska
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Smoking isn't good and it's something that builds up to more and more as time goes on, so it's not smart as far as stress relief is concerned. Exercise instead. Go sweat. Get active in something you really enjoy doing.

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