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The more things change, the more they stay the same...
May 29, 2005
6:46 pm
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InPainZHT
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...quite a saying that is attributed originally to French novelist Alphonse Karr (1808-90). It has become one of my most quoted lines now and is used as a signature line in most of my emails.

Anybody want to take a wild guess as to WHY?

InPain

May 30, 2005
4:53 am
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InPain

Because life is a series of predictable cycles, which are inevitable, unavoidable...no matter where we are, who we are or what we do.... ?

Now your turn : )

~charlie~

May 30, 2005
8:49 am
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InPainZHT
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You pretty much summed it up.

The things I have seen in the last 9 months have simply flabergasted me. I am now learning to understand the concept of "seperate realities", and dealing with it by not assuming the other person is looking at the world through the same, or anywhere NEAR the same, paradigm (filter) that I am.

It makes it easier to accept what i've seen... plus understanding it's not up to me to accept it anyway; only I am my business; nobody else is.

InPain

May 30, 2005
9:07 am
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saralynn
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InPain, I'm just trying to understand...is it something like, "there is nothing new under the sun"? I mean, I've experience some painful situations, weird emotions, unusual thoughts, and I've come to realize that I'm not alone - that there really is nothing new under the sun, and someone, somewhere understands how I feel. (As well as those who don't have a CLUE what I'm feeling because they've never experienced it - "seperate realities") Anyway, a good thread. I'de be interested in hearing more comments? ~saralynn

May 30, 2005
9:23 am
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feelingused
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InPain-
How true was your statement.
Thats what frustrates me to nooo end! I watch and listen to my husband and wonder, "How could he be that way?, Why doesn't he see the wrong he does?, Why can't he "feel" the need to be involved with the kids?",,, Those questions seem to have popped up through all these many years!!
The filter he sees life through must be clogged up with garbage!
I have and will always love watching my girls grow to wonderful young ladies that they are, I will enjoy what life will bring me through "them".. Its just sooo sad to see he dosen't feel the need to watch through my filter..
I tell him that "he" will regret not being there for them, because they also in the future may not be there for him! and thats a sad feeling... I don't feel sad for my husband, I feel sad for my girls. Everyone wants their daddy to seem them clearly through the important filter of life!! That they ARE special enough for him to have his eye on them alone instead of the gabbage clogging his sight on them!!!!

May 30, 2005
9:28 am
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exoticflower
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Saralynne, again with the exact words (and me with the affirmation again...have I told you I think we may be codependants?). I wasthinking though, if there is nothing new under the sun then there are greater things to seek out when we are experiancing a lot of negatives as much as there are people who have experianced those negatives...Something I know I do all the time is reaching out for understanding, which is important of course, but fail to also seek out something different under the sun and embrase that as well, to share my joys AND my sorrws alike. If that makes sense. I think it ties in here though, I really do.

May 30, 2005
9:40 am
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InPainZHT
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Saralynn, Feelingused- it's a quote from French novelist Alphonse Karr (1808-90). It was Karr's way of saying that, "Nothing changes too much"; in my own life, I have seen this basically proven in watching the fact that so many people repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

"seperate realities" is a concept I read on a few wonderful self-help books to help you deal with frustration with other people. We all tend to scream and clench our fists and say "how can this-or-that person DO this or that?! Doesn't he/she see the stupidity & futility of it? Why doesn't he/she STOP? Why doesn't He/she do this-or-that INSTEAD?".

We come to understand that a person's view of the world is completely justified to them, just as yours is to yourself; thought systems are self-validating. We find or make evidence that verifies what we think. Therefore, this other person- in this forum, your ex for example- lived a life seperate from you until you met, had a seperate childhood you never experienced, has memories you'll never have, etc., the sum total of which constructs THIER view of the world which allows them or helps them to believe what they are doing is right, just as you do.

It helps in relinquishing the need to control others, or the feeling that you are so 100% right and MUST make this other person see what you see, etc.

In my case, my ex felt 100% correct and justified, therefore, when she would tell me that we couldn't kiss much in front of other people because it was morally incorrect... only to invite teenage friends of hers and her family over for the weekend to her house and all smoke marijuana, drink alcohol, take muscle relaxants recreationally and allow them (underage and without license) to go out driving her vehicle (which didn't belong to her).

The whole time MY seperate reality said "this is INSANE! Why does she not see the conflict in these "moral choices?"

InPain

May 30, 2005
9:41 am
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saralynn
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EF, Yes, you've whispered to me that we might be co-dependant...you think?! *grin* Finding understanding is like being covered with a warm blanket and brought in out of the rain (I know, kinda sappy, but it's exactly how I feel when I'm understood) Having said that, I think the same author of, "there's nothing new under the sun", also wrote that "there's a time for everything under the sun." After awhile that warm blanket becomes suffocating when it's no longer raining outside, and I want to feel the sun on my face. I think coming out of co-dependancy means risking venturing out of my four walls, and really LIVING LIFE! Soooo, whether anyone raises a glass to toast my courage, or not, I am determined to step out from under my security blanket, and carpe diem! I will however, raise a glass to all of us who've discovered there is more to this life than what we've experienced thus far. I'm hopeful, ~saralynn

May 30, 2005
9:48 am
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saralynn
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InPain, I responded before reading your explanation, and maybe my response had nothing to do with "the more things change...stay the same." I like the concept of seperate realities. I think to not have to understand someone elses reality, but to accept it would be a big accomplishment for me! And in turn, not having to have someone understand mine! But, I really do want to be flexible, and not so dogmatic about my own reality. Okay, now I'm confusing myself! Each day seems to be a new page of understanding for me. You know, I, like so many, read jigsy's thread and am totally amazed and blessed by her sweet heart! Ohhh that we could all see with her eyes! Love you guys! ~saralynn

May 30, 2005
10:08 am
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InPainZHT
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saralynn- which thread from jigsy? What's the title so I can read it? I love inspirational reading.

InPain

May 30, 2005
10:32 am
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exoticflower
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Saralynn, I raise my Coffee to you (I suppose it will make more of a dull thud than a pleasant clink, but you get the idea).

Yes, In Pain, there is quite a lot of inspiration to be found in the works of Jigs here. Not Christian myself, but I think about "and a child shall lead them"...by example, clearly! We could al stand to be more childlike in our honest take on the world.

May 30, 2005
11:35 am
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saralynn
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InPain, Jigsy's thread is actually entitled "Mammagoose" and I read it (usually through my tears!) but don't comment - I don't want to confuse her, but I do love and support her with all my heart! You should read it, you will be touched.

p.s. oooohhh! I love coffee! It's my beverage of choice! *clunk* the sound of our coffee cups being clunked! Thanks!

May 30, 2005
11:47 am
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exoticflower
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*clunk*, and I forgot to post the name of the thread there, so *clunk* in thanks as well.

May 30, 2005
12:01 pm
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InPain,

I believe in change!!! I am an OPTIMIST!!! This proverb sounds to me pessimistic - correct me if I am wrong!

"The more things change, the more they stay the same..."

Provided that we do not control, manipulate, force; rather let nature take its course and effect whatever necessary in a situation.

We coda people want to be masters, we have savior complex, we feel that the whole world needs and wants us. Although I believe that we are our brothers' keepers and I am a warm and care-giving person; however I've learned to recognize that I have limits and infirmities and I need to stop and let God do the rest.

I hope that makes sense!

Love,

Rasputin

May 30, 2005
1:11 pm
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InPainZHT
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Rasputin,

I think it's a nuetral proverb more or less.... no polarity attatched to it. It's how it is applied; kinda like what comes around goes around, etc.

I enjoyed your paragraph about "we coda people".. I have learned through my self help literature to let my feelings be my barometer for when things are going wrong inside me. When I start thinking negatively and using old thought systems that are dysfunctional, I have ceased to "relinquish", and found that I am starting to mentally try to control again. I start thinking "this person or that should have/ougth to have [done the following]". I have to snap out of it.

InPain

May 30, 2005
1:24 pm
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InPain

When I first came onto this site, I was in pain.

Long story.

Now I too, have learned that you can't change the way other people react/think or act...

You can't control anything...

I've tried thinking of just one thing I can control...

I can't : (

Maybe man is an island after all...

~love charlie~

May 30, 2005
1:28 pm
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Oh, yes...and I'm still in pain..

May 30, 2005
9:23 pm
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InPainZHT
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Charlie,

Actually, a core belief in therapy and self-help is that there IS one (and only one) thing you can control; yourself. This is such a vital and important concept that it is actually included in many investment and business tutorials and literature. The more you stay locked into worrying about that which you cannot effect, or attempting to control and manipulate that which cannot be, the more your life will become chaotic, erratic, and turn into an emotional rollercoaster. As long as I accepted this and remembered it, I would improve and get better. The SECOND I began falling into the thought process of "this person/thing SHOULD/SHOULD NOT have done THIS or THAT", all hell broke loose; I would become immediately miserable for placing conditions on my happiness on something exterior to myself.

It has taken me 35 years to actually learn and understand that we are naturally content creatures, and continue to be so until think ourselves right into unhappiness... "if only", "should", "ought", etc. Abraham Lincoln once said "people are generally as happy or unhappy as they think they are."

True story.

InPain

May 31, 2005
4:15 am
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InPain

Thank you for sharing your true story, and for starting this thread.

I have been having therapy too, and I am 38 now. I really should have gone years ago, but back then, my parents had instilled in me the belief that therapy was for crazy self absorbed people - and in any case it was too TABOO to even talk about..

"Mad" people twisted their hair between their shaking fingers, rocked while hugging their knees, shouted things out from street corners...and since I wasn't displaying any of those traits, I was just "being silly"...

But it didn't feel silly, when at the age of ten, I had my first dissasociative experience in the playground - when at night I would run downstairs crying "I don't know who I am".

It didn't feel silly when, in my early twenties, I began to have panic attacks, was unable to be alone, drive my car, sleep, swallow food, breathe...

Things are alot better now.

But still, sometimes, out of the blue, I will be reminded, that although for the most part, yes, I can control myself....there are days when I can't..

Most recently, I have been struggling with the loss of a relationship, in which I literally became addicted. Ironically it was me that ended it, and was left to wallow in regret - while he moved on seemingly painlessly.

I have to see him around all the time - looking smug, and I keep wondering whether or not he has any regrets about me, or if he ever thinks of me...

My husband (I am still married, although I would like to get separated - but my husband is making it difficult for me), had an affair last year too - which I had to just get on with, since he had forgiven me (Although going out and having a revenge affair voided any forgiveness)

I suppose I struggle with the concept that I can't have an effect on other people, when I am literally spun around by a word, a look, a thought....

Sorry for sounding so damn miserable, but right now, I just am - unless of course I can persuade myself that I am in control..

: )

~love charlie~

May 31, 2005
7:45 am
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InPainZHT
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Charlie,

No biggie... we've all been here. Some of us still are. To worry about having an affect on other people is utter folly, I have learned; if for NO other reason, we have no idea of what all is going through somebody else's head or what they are experiencing at any given moment... even up until a few minutes ago... so to second-guess what they are thinking, ultimately, is futile. On a much more important note, worrying about other people's trains of thought is wasting space in your own brain; you should be worried about your own. Sad fact is, we can't even be accurate about the thought processes of those we know really well simply because the closeness of our feelings to them cause us to be biased.

Take your ex; when you see him, you say he looks like he's walking around "all smug", as though thumbing his nose at you. This really does sound more like a latent fear you have that your are trying to actualize, or that you are imposing on him. I use to do it myself, and still do sometimes. However, the actual fact of the matter is that when people are emotionally shallow enough to disregard our feelings so tragically, after seemingly to care about them so much, then it's not likely they are wasting much of THIER time doing anything for your sake, whether it be revenge or otherwise. It just doesn't "fit".

And, on the other had, if they DID have deep feelings for you, but then turned around and treated you so badly, then they have mental problems- I suspect mine has borderline personality disorder because she fits 5 of the 7 criteria necessary for being diagnosed with it... which means she very well did love me at one time, then held me with the same regard as Adolf Hitler two months later. And equally believes both at each time.

Anyway, upward and onward!

InPain

June 1, 2005
4:45 am
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InPain

So much truth in your post. I have to remember this. It's really the antidote to most of my toxic thinking.

Just the fact that, as you said, most of the thoughts occupying my brain are futile, has been a sort of wake up call for me.

I have two issues going on at once. One is a bad marriage, and the feeling of being stuck in prison. The other is the loss of this guy, who I obsess over.

Both tear me up..

But I think I have learned something here, about letting go of the notion that external changes (like my ex, who I perceive [ : ) ] to be looking 'smug', looking forlorn one day, or finding out he's not as ecstatically happy as I think he is...etc....), will help me...when I can do that for myself...by reducing the amount of time I spend wallowing in futility...

Thank you so much for your insight on my dilemma....

Hope you are having a great day : )

The more things change, the more they stay the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!

~love charlie~

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