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THE 12 STEPS OF THE NON_RECOVERED:
March 20, 2010
5:03 pm
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atalose
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THE 12 STEPS OF THE NON_RECOVERED:

1) We admitted we were powerless over nothing, that we could manage our lives perfectly and those of anyone else who would allow us to.

2) Came to believe there was no power greater than ourselves and the rest of the world was insane.

3) Made a decision to have our loved ones and friends turn their will and their lives over to our care, even though they couldn't understand us.

4) Made a searching moral and immoral inventory of everyone we knew.

5) Admitted to the whole world the exact nature of everyone else's wrongs.

6) Were entirely ready to make the others straighten up and fly right.

7) Demanded others to either shape up or ship out.

8) Made a list of all persons who had harmed us and became willing to go to any length to get even with them all.

9) Got direct revenge on such people whenever possible, except when to do so would cost us our lives, or at the very least, a jail sentence.

10) Continued to take the inventory of others, and when they were wrong promptly and repeatedly told them about it.

11) Sought through complaining and nagging to improve our relations with others, as we couldn't understand them, asking only that they knuckle under and do it our way.

12) Having had a complete physical, emotional and spiritual breakdown as a result of these steps, we tried to blame it on others and to get sympathy and pity in all our affairs.

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

March 20, 2010
5:16 pm
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PreciousG
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WOW!! Part of me is LOL and the other, i have to admit is rather inlightened!

Good One Atalose!

March 20, 2010
6:39 pm
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fantas
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Love it!!!! I can put a check a few of those... not good!! Dang!!

March 20, 2010
8:23 pm
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Lillabit
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ive been interested in 12 step programs simce a good friend of mine was court ordered to attend meetings. I went to alanon to try n understand what was going on with me n with her. ithought they were kinda creepy, chanting all those sayimgs about powelessness. obsesimg about the alcholoic. I agree with the poeple that are comimg out agaimst it as a religion, or cult. my freind didnt quit drinking while she went to AA. went to meetings cause of the court order. she didnt go back cause she doesnt beleive in God and found the constant references to HP offputting. She quit drimking 6 years ago when she found Rational Recovery.. never relapsed. its based on cognitive behavioural therapy. AA is based on belief in personal powerlessness. recovery coming from a higher power. simce the 12 step programs all model thereselves after AA. have to have permission from AA to use the steps i ownder if theirs any danger of getting sucked into come kindof religious cult. like with any of them.

12 step programs are beimg refered to as Steppism.

http://mauihistorian.blogspot......today.html "In June of 1996, the New York Court of Appeals ruled that the New York Department of Corrections substance abuse program was unconstitutional because, "after a fair reading of the doctrinal literature of Alcoholics Anonymous (the 12-step program was found to be) unequivocally religious."

Kerr v. Farrey (1996). The United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit (Wisconsin, Illinois, and Indiana), reversing a district court decision, unanimously held “that the sate . . .impermissibly coerced inmates to participate in a religious program, thus violating the Establishment Clause.” An inmate was threatened with being sent to a higher security prison and with rejection of his parole applications for refusing to attend Narcotics Anonymous meetings (p. 114)

Warner v. Orange County Department of Probation (1999). The United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit affirmed 2-1 a district court ruling that recommending an inmate plaintiffs participation in Alcoholics Anonymous as a condition of probation violated the Establishment Clause (p. 118)

Evans v. Tennessee Board of Paroles (1997). The Supreme Court of Tennessee, responding to petitions from two inmates, regarding their failed parole hearings, found unanimously that the trial court erred in dismissing one of the inmates’—Anthony Evans’—claim for injunctive relief as to the Board’s requirement that he participate in Alcoholics Anonymous. The court remanded the case to the trial court to determine whether AA was religious in nature, while citing case evidence that this was indeed the case (p. 124)

“Appeals court says requirement to attend AA unconstitutional” Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer [San Francisco Chronicle, September 8, 2007]

“Saturday, September 8, 2007

“Alcoholics Anonymous, the renowned 12-step program that directs problem drinkers to seek help from a higher power, says it's not a religion and is open to nonbelievers. But it has enough religious overtones that a parolee can't be ordered to attend its meetings as a condition of staying out of prison, a federal appeals court ruled Friday.

“In fact, said the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco, the constitutional dividing line between church and state in such cases is so clear that a parole officer can be sued for damages for ordering a parolee to go through rehabilitation at Alcoholics Anonymous or an affiliated program for drug addicts.

“Rulings from across the nation since 1996 have established that ‘requiring a parolee to attend religion-based treatment programs violates the First Amendment,’ the court said. ’While we in no way denigrate the fine work of (Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous), attendance in their programs may not be coerced by the state’."

The authoritative status of these six decisions has yet to be decided by the United States Supreme Court as far as the First Amendment aspect is concerned. But the factual determinations are persuasive on the question of A.A. as a religion."

March 20, 2010
8:36 pm
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fantas
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Lillabit,

First of all I'm so glad your friend has found a place that's helpful.

I understand AA from a historical perspective. When AA started, there was little hope for alcoholics and many a people and families that have been helped greatly by the AA movement and it's off shoots. I also acknowledge the benefits of cognitive therapy and I'm so glad there are starting to be more options for people wanting to recover from addictions. AA is for some and not others just like Rational therapy makes sense to some and not others. I happen to like both because they appeal to different sides of me.

Also, Rational Therapy isn't widely practiced as yet and AA is often the only option for people. So for those who need help, please don't knock AA it could save someone's life.

March 20, 2010
8:41 pm
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PreciousG
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Lillabit,

Not only can AA save lives it has already saved lives!

March 20, 2010
9:55 pm
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Lillabit
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fanatas rational recovery isnt a support group. the emphasis is on self understanding. RR has a small book that helps you understand addiction. they used to offer support but they didnt recommend it for long term. they didnt say that without it the addict would die. they hope that the memberwill recover so he or she can leave the group.

March 20, 2010
10:31 pm
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Lillabit
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PreciousG. i know it worked for some. but i thimk the success rate is overstated. even the anonymous alcoholic Bill Wilson said this.

At a memorial service for Dr. Bob, Bill Wilson actually bragged about the pathetically low success rate of the whole A.A. program. (Bill was making himself out to be a long-suffering hero, working tirelessly to promote Alcoholics Anonymous.) Bill described the early days of A.A. this way:

"You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait."
Bill Wilson, at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952

March 21, 2010
1:31 am
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fantas
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I don't know about numbers but I know at least 5 people who have gone from the gutter to absolute success as a result of their willingness to work their AA programs. I also know a few who just can't seem to stay on it and two who died. So all I know is that it could work for someone and it sure did for Wilson and the handful they got a hold of. Can't throw the baby out with the bath water here...

March 21, 2010
9:58 am
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Lillabit
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I'm sure it helps some people. but in 2001 the statistics showed a success rate for sobritey longer than a year at about 5%. Bill Wilson died from his addiction to cigarettes.

Bill Wilson n Dr Robert Smith were the founders of AA. they originally belonged to Buchman's Oxford Group cult religion.

The practices of the Buchman Oxford Group were:

1) Admission of personal defeat (You have been defeated by sin).

2) Taking of personal inventory. (List your sins.)

3) Confession of one's sins to another person.

4) Making restitution to those one has harmed.

5) Helping others selflessly.

6) Praying to God for Guidance and the power to put these precepts into practice

but they were kicked out n told to take their alcholic friends with them. they formed there own group. the Alcoholic squadron of the Oxford Group n used amlost the same 6 bylaws.

these are the original twelve steps from 1938. theyve modified them. substitute God for HP. but AAers still say you cant stop drinking without doing the steps going to the meetings. Thats not true.

1. [We] Admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that God could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care and direction of God.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely willing that God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly, on our knees, asked Him to remove our shortcomings — holding nothing back.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make complete amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual experience as the result of this course of action, we tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Wilsons spiritual expereice came with his 4th detox where his doctor gave him the belladonna cure. it was during that cure tripping on the hallucinogen that he saw a bright light and saw god. that was his spiritual experiemce? he wrote about spiritual intoxication in the Big Book. "Assume on the other hand that father has, at the outset, a stirring spiritual experience. Overnight, as it were, he is a different man. He becomes a religious enthusiast. He is unable to focus on anything else. ... There is talk about spiritual matters morning, noon and night.
...

They suspect father is a bit balmy!

He is not so unbalanced as they might think. Many of us have experienced dad's elation. We have indulged in spiritual intoxication."

The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 9, pages 127-8.

That Big Book is weird. it gives examples of why not to work, placing emphasis on spiritual matters it might be better for the family of the alcoholic to read. to understand the mind of the addict.

"The opposite may happen should the family condemn and criticize. Dad may feel that for years his drinking has placed him on the wrong side of every argument, but that now he has become a superior person with God on his side. If the family persists in criticism, this fallacy may take a still greater hold on father. Instead of treating the family as he should, he may retreat further into himself and feel he has spiritual justification for so doing.
Though the family does not fully agree with dad's spiritual activities, they should let him have his head. Even if he displays a certain amount of neglect and irresponsibility towards the family, it is well to let him go as far as he likes in helping other alcoholics. During those first days of convalescence, this will do more to insure his sobriety than anything else. Though some of his manifestations are alarming and disagreeable, we think dad will be on a firmer foundation than the man who is placing business or professional success ahead of spiritual development. He will be less likely to drink again, and anything is preferable to that."
The Big Book, 3rd edition, William G. Wilson, Chapter 9, The Family Afterwards, pages 129-130.

gosh how manipulative is that. don't pressure the alcholic he might start drinking again and that would be your fault. do they still teach that? they should destroy this bigbook.
His wife is the one who started Alanon!!!!! bless her heart.

the bigbook was suposedly written by an anonymous person but Wilson got royalties for writimg the book. he never worked after he started AA. during the depression. before that he was a stock speculator. speculation is considered a form of gambling. he suffered from depression. was addicted to cigarettes n died of emphasema.

March 21, 2010
10:10 am
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crystalwaters
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Perhaps the debate portion of this should be moved to the other side? And perhaps a thread can be started here on people's personal experiences with RR and other "alternative" approaches...

March 21, 2010
12:47 pm
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Lillabit
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oh my bad!! is it not ok to not agree with what everyone says on Support?

March 21, 2010
12:53 pm
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I just looked at it as a tongue in cheek sort of- to look at ourselves and where we are. I thought it was cute and funny yet has a message.

I doubt- just talking from my own perspective here- that it was something that invited dispute, a contrary approach, etc. Seems to me like it was something more for fun and a giggle or two- but some folks take everything OH so seriously and have to have a debate on just about anything, take a contrary point of view, etc- to them I say (if this is indeed the case, lighten up!

I think a debate about AA would be a good one, but not necessarily what this thread was designed for.

sd

March 21, 2010
1:22 pm
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Lillabit
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oh im' really a lot of fun. i seem to blunder here at this site tho. alot. i thot the original post was funny a way of poking fun at the twelve steps n i took it from there. im sorry if i offemded anyone. i cant' seem to get it right!!!! i dont get it. i post about things on this portion of the site n get told to go to the other part. when i did that n felt free to express my opinoin people were all hurt n sayd there leavimg.

March 21, 2010
1:57 pm
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sdesigns
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"that it was something that invited dispute"

OOPS- should have said that is was NOT something that invited dispute

March 21, 2010
3:54 pm
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i think its fine if its voluntary. going to the meetings saying the chants n prayers work for that person. but the courts are ruling that because it is religious it is unconstitutional to mandate attendance. its like they get people when they are down. at there lowerst. syaing without having a spiritueal experience they cant' quit.

The bigbook says that in the we agnostics part. chapter 4. it says the the main object of the "Book" is to enable you to find a power higher than yourself which will solve your problem. it also goes on to say that as agnostics there was no results until they admitted there was a possibility of a power greater than there selve. that their own conception of God however inadequate was sufficient to make the approach and affect a contact with Him.

i got this from the BigBook online.

here is something that is unsettlimg to me. this is from that chapter 4 - it says. faced with alcoholic destruction we soon became as open minded about spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. like intellectual things. it also says n this is just un beleivable. "In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness."

it also says "Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was our last word, the alpha, the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it?"
they got someone to recant.

rock bottom. thats' what my friend was saying bothered her. that the people that used their intellect n chose another belief. got bombarded with these messages about hp and god when they were at their lowest. told she was in denial when she wouldnt talk the talk that they talked. she said thats' what cults do. the way they brainwashed like the moonys. they get people when the are all the way down and draw them into this fellowship. like they were saying you cant do it your self you need this higher power n you need this fellowship with the coffee and cookies. without AA you cant stop drinking. Some do though. without AA or higher power. cause they can. i used to be afraid that i would be alcoholic. my mom drank but i never wanted to even when my friends did. the only thing im addcited to is some tv shows.

my friend read everything. those are the things she told me that were offputting to her. and the fact that they just grinded n grinded about attending those meetings.

all the twelve step programs say this. they all say given permission by AA world services inc. overeaters say that God is Him. Codependents say god as we understand god. which is cool. allows for other genders. then alanon says that THEY are powerless over alcohol. i never understood that. powerless over the alcholic maybe? that they cant control that he or she is powerless over their behavour while intoxicated. but alcohol?

March 21, 2010
3:55 pm
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One thing ive learnt in codependancy is this, everyone's opinion is their opinion which their entitled to voice, and you either can take it or leave it.. jee if someone write's something you dont like or agree with say if it makes you feel better, but it still is only someones opinion at the end of day!!!!atalose thank you for sharing gave me something to ponder on, as all do who write on here!...
darkeyes!!!

March 21, 2010
4:03 pm
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sdesigns
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Lillabit- sorry to say this but it seems you have your own thread going within a thread. I don't think you're on topic anymore. Maybe thats part of the problem you think you've been having.

March 21, 2010
4:13 pm
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Lillabit
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ok ill' conside myself kicked off this thread.

March 21, 2010
4:53 pm
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atalose
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I did create this thread as a light hearted look into non-recovery, for US the codependents to relate to. I know for sure many of those LOL steps I walked myself until I learned a new path.

No matter what path of recovery an individual takes, 12 steps, one on one therapy, another program it’s still very much solely on their shoulders to face life on life’s terms without drinking/drugging. Every day they are no more then ONE bad decision away……………for a lifetime. Recovery is damn hard work….if it was easy, everybody would be doing it, right???

Now if we can, lets get back OUR recovery and our codependency, everyone is welcome here, lets just get back on track......to US.

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

March 21, 2010
5:04 pm
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fantas
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I think, this take on the 12 steps here is funny in a sort of reality check sense. I have been at each and every one of these positions and I might add, I'm still stuck on a few. So here is to the awakening... thanks, Atalose. I don't know where you find them but you sure do find some jewels...

March 21, 2010
7:42 pm
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atalose
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fantas,

Same here, I often re-visit those non-recovered steps, find myself stuck for a bit, tell myself all that “crazy thinking” to justify why I am not doing the right things for MYSELF.

I’m glad I only visit those non-recovered steps and don’t stay on any one of them for too long, catching myself and my thinking is the key.

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

March 22, 2010
6:26 pm
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atalose
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HELP!!!!!!

I'm stuck on the non-recovered step 2.........

Guess all the other non-recovered people in my life came out of hiding..... LOL

Atalose

~~Hope has a place, but not above reality~~

March 22, 2010
7:14 pm
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fantas
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(((Atalose))), It's very possible they are insane LOL. I'm letting some people in my life handle their own drama for a little while and just not caring. It's really hard, specially when they are people close to us...

March 22, 2010
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sdesigns
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atalose: Then try #11! or 6 or 7! ha ha

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