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stuck like toffee
November 13, 2001
7:45 pm
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toffee
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Yes, I feel really stuck. I am in a relationship that does not make me happy. HE sleeps on the couch because he does not want to get me pregnant and refuses to get sterilized, although he has promised that he would do it over a year ago.
I am in my late thirties and he is in his late twenties. I called him on the phone today because he took my vehicle without asking me and i told him loudly that i did not appreciate him taking MY van. He said it was OUR van. I pay for registration, insurance and loan payments. We are married, but is this not MY van. He is VERY messy and does not take care of anything of mine that he borrows. HE is filthy in his behavior sa and very unorganized with his finances. HE has charged up my excellent credit with my bank and visa because he could not find a job ofr a year. He only just started working a week ago because i threw him out, for a day
I thought i had the strength to make it permanent but i felt bad for the kids and thought he would cause me hell with custody etc. HE says he has no desire for custody ( ibelieve this becaue he can hardly take care of himself, let alone three children ) My professional life and health has bgeen adversely affected from all the stress and i find myself fantacising about another life with another man...
help

November 13, 2001
9:32 pm
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artist 2
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Molly - and my suggestion to read "Relationship Rescue" and follow it with dedication.

If anything, it will make you feel much more in control, and much more clear on what you can and can't do anything about.

Let us know what happens...

November 13, 2001
9:56 pm
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janes
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If you get him gone and keep him gone....why do you NEED another man?

What lessons are the kids learning from him? Work ethic? Cleanliness?
Organizational Skills?

November 14, 2001
1:22 am
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toffee
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Today he told me i was abusive for yelling at him for taking my vehicle. He said his van was shit and wouldnt work therefore it was in the best interests of the family that he take mine regardless of whether he asked me or not. HE then called me a fat old cow ( i am over weight having had three children in five years ) and I am older than him. I told him if he ever verbally abused me again i would be finished with this relationshiop. The argument went on for three hrs where he took his stuff and loaded it all in his shit vehicle. He was actually going to walk out. HE said iw as an abusive woman and i manipulated him into being with me from a young age. He really hurt me and got me and the attention went from all the stuff he called me in front of our children and the trauma he caused them to poor old him. I had appparently manipulated and lied to him and did not care or love him therefore he was going to leave me with his huge debt and all our financial responsibilities. HE said he wouldnt give me a cent.
He said i was deceitful ( i am very honest ) and unsupportive ( I have always given up too much of myself for him and his career )
LISTEN, I AM DOUBTING MY REALITY.
I AM THINKING THAT MAYBE I AM ABUSIVE BUT HE IS ALSO. I KNOW I AM ANGRY BUT IT IS BECAUSE I CAN NOT TOLERATE THE CONTINUAL NOT SLEEPING WITH ME, NOT LOVING ME NOT SHOWING AFFECTION NOT DOING ANYTHING TOGETHER. ITS ALLA OBUT MONEY, BILLS AND LIVING TOGETHER FOR WHAT? I FEEL I HAVE SETTLED FOR SO LITTLE BECAUSE MY DAMN MOTHER WAS JUST AS NARCISSCISTIC AND UNLOVING AS I FEEL HE IS. I REALISED THAT I AM TRYING TO GET LOVE FROM AN UN LOVING PERSON BUT HE BLAMES THAT ON ME.
I AM ALSO THINKING THAT MAYBE I HAVE THE PROBLEM..I FEEL LIKE I HAVE REGRESSED TEN YEARS........

November 14, 2001
6:50 am
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janes
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Trying to turn the blame back on the other person is "normal " for his type "You made me hit you" "If you wouldn't talk I wouldn't lose my temper"

Do you NEED this to continue?

The book mentioned is good.

For him to change tho' he has to change..you can't change him.

Maybe you ARE abusive and maybe you are part of the problem. Are you willing to face that and start changing yourself? If you are don't expect much from him...then the fault will yours and your counselors.

You and the kids do need therapy to work through this whether he stays or not. He needs therapy too. Probly won't go and will laugh at youfor considering it....you are the problem remember.

check oot DrIrene.com ....your situation IS abusive....and unless you want to stay in it when he packs ...wave bye bye. Your kids aren't lerning much that is good from him right now and they need to see and understand that we all need to take care of our priiorities....and shouldn't FAMILY (esp kids) come first.

You have some soul searching to do.

Good lluck...hang in..I spent a few years as a "fat cow" too. That should be a non issue here.

November 14, 2001
11:29 am
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Ladeska
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toffee....soooooo, how long do you need to sit here and "feel" this before you "do" something AS IN - kicking him out of your life and keeping him out of your life? Not much else to say besides that. He's projecting who "he is" onto you when you argue. But, why do you want to continue to sit and spin here? It's time to take action and mean it, once and for all.

November 14, 2001
12:31 pm
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toffee
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ok,well maybe i am part of the prob. I get angry because i feel mistreated does that mean he has a right to drop all of the other stuff on me, like, oh i never should of married you, i could easily find a woman to love and support me..now that he has a job, i feel he only stuck around after the last time he almsot left because he needed to get himself financially on his feet. HE makes me feel, like no one else ( except my mother ) that I am a bad person.
I believe I can be verbally abusive and i will deal with that, but i think he has lied to me about certain things. HE says and admits he has been unloving and unsupportive but he says its because im angry all the time. I say im angry because hes an asshole, he refuses to sleep with me because my bed is apparently too hard and hurts his shoulders...he lies down on the couch at night and masturbates to his porn. HE says i have lost my looks and he doesnt find me physically attractive at all, but i am "beautiful inside" but i guess thats not fuckable!
Breaking up a home is hard on children, it isnot something to take lightly. We rarely argue but when we do its bad because all the stuff comes up. HE says the only reason he is with me now is because he fears that i will lose our home ( we have debt that he has put on me from lack of work ) if he fears financially for me why didint he workfor a year, why has he clocked my over draft and my credit cards..but i guess i let him..
I am so tired. My body gave out bad and it still isnt recovered. I think of being with out him and access visits and court and him with a younger woman and my feeling some guilt because maybe i was a total bitch to live with, maybe thats why he didnt love me...so sad
i feel so stuck. I will do phil macgraws stuff one more time to take care of my stuff, but I feel so degraded having him here. i am ashamed of myself after the way he spoke to me and he is still in my house but i am so afraid that i may be contributing ina large way and some of hte stuff he says is true. Maybe i cant see the forest fore the trees. HE says if he leaves, he is never coming back...so theres no grey area. I hate him and i think i love him, what a mess.

November 14, 2001
12:35 pm
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artist 2
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So, how do you really feel about him? Want him gone? Scared of being alone? You're either alone, or you're with someone who calls you names, verbally abusing you, not to mention the anticipated physical abuse that usually follows.

Feeling like a fool? GET HIM OUR OF THERE!!!!

He must be saying these things because you are telling him it's acceptable. You really think it's acceptable???

It's your call. YOU DECIDE IF IT'S OK FOR HIM TO DO THIS. THEN TELL HIM IT'S OK, OR IT'S NOT.

November 14, 2001
12:49 pm
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Ladeska
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....so what are you going to do here, just continue to go down river? You can't stand still. Isn't possible. Either backwards or forwards. If you settle for just hanging out - then you'll get more of the same. Regardless of who shot John - John's pretty busted up. But - You are not responsible for all that he is or is not. Period. He's a big boy - he can't scapegoat all his shortcomings onto you. You can sit here all day long and vent and analyze but you won't get anywhere in really fixing the problem. At some point you have to take action based on how bad bad is. This isn't good for you and it's not good for the children or him. Staying in hell for the children is a crock and you know it. They aren't stupid. They sense way more than we know - even if you don't yell and throw things.

You aren't living with your mother. But, you did pick someone just like her looks like. You won't be fixing your relationship with her - through him. Won't happen. And it's high time you stopped believing the same lies from both of them about who you are. Slamming someone and offering constructive criticism because you love them - are two different things.

He's been using you - plain and simple and now he's trying to make you wear everything and feel guilty about things - he's done and not done. I don't know about you - but I'd be throwing that one right back in his face and him out on his ear. No thanks, don't want to talk about it and don't want to know you anymore. Go find Lolita and get out of my way, I have a life to live.

November 14, 2001
6:24 pm
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Ladeska
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Blondie - We should write a book called - "Marriage, the Big Con Game."

November 14, 2001
6:54 pm
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artist 2
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How about a book called "Real Love. Real Crazy."

November 14, 2001
7:41 pm
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toffee
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I went out and did xmas shopping todya and brought he a five hundred dollar leather coat and brought myself a fifty dollar one.........
I felt like perhaps he is right, i am a bitch. How is he using me? I just cant believe he would use me. HE spent all my money, but i let him,.
I screamed at him on the phone when he took my van and hung up on him, i screamed at him to get out...he says hes trying tomake money for us and pay back debts. Maybe i have some issues.....

November 14, 2001
7:48 pm
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gypsygirl
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ok am I reading that right? What is that about a $500. coat?

November 15, 2001
11:22 am
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eve
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toffee, do read up on **codependeny**. And then make up your mind. Unfortunately you can't make this guy love you and treat you properly. It sounds as if he wouldn't know how to do that even if he wanted to. You can only decide for yourself and for you kids how you want to live and if you want to be responsible for your life. Do you want to be responsible for his life, too? Great temptation, isn't it - but you can't. He is an adult and should be responsible for himself. Help him? He doesn't seem to appreciate any of it, so don't do it.

November 15, 2001
12:56 pm
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Ladeska
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Blondie....I hear ya....geez....

And we wonder why we hear men say....Hey, I treat her bad because she likes it, treats me real good when I'm asshole to her. Can't remember how many times I've heard that and heard other men say - that's the way alot of men think. But, women aren't helpless - they allow this and treat their little monster like a King.

"Good little rabid dog, nice little savage predator, there, there, wipe the blood from my heart off your hands and face and let me see how I can make your life more comfy, 'kay?"

"OH, you stabbed me in the gut one more time and made it look like it was my fault?"

"Oh, sweetheart, I deserved that...hit me again, tell me some more stories about how I deserve all this, you know I love you, I love you, I love you..."

"So sorry for crying and getting any tears on you or making your day bad because I was sad or angry...please forgive me!"

"I know I have issues....baby, baby, baby, PLEASE forgive me, don't leave!!!..."

"Can I buy you something, give you another credit card to abuse, co-sign for you a vehicle, get additional life insurance out on me in case I accidentally die, what? I'll do anything for you, it's ALL my fault!"

Excuse me now....while I go vomit from writing that....

November 15, 2001
3:38 pm
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janes
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Sorry Blondie..the prosin wouldn't work...they would just bounce off each other while waiting to be released.

I want to say...

A FUCKING $500.00 DOLLAR COAT CUZ HE SAYS YOU ARE A BITCH??????????

he doesn't deserve a $5.00 sweatshirt form Good will I don't care HOW big a bitch you are....

I tell my mom all the time to stop trying to buy my kids love.....

She won't stop either....

This guy is gonna be around awhile...he knows the buttons to push.

Low self esteem or not.....no name caller needs a coat that expensive.

TAKE IT BACK...RETURN IT....wait until the next time he calls you a fat cow.

No coat is gonna change HIS behavior...it will just make it worse.

She is feeding the bad stuff....

It is very sad.

AAAAAGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!

November 15, 2001
4:04 pm
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Starbaby
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Toffee--
I've been there...I would get in an argument with my ex and then when it was over, feel so crappy about making him unhappy that I would try to "do something nice" for him. Usually that meant I would buy him something. It must have happened a lot, because his whole wardrobe consists of things I bought.

Did he love me more? No, he just kept doing the same things because he knew it got him what he wanted.

What did it get me? A huge credit debt.

Hold on to that jacket for awhile and really think hard about returning it. No one should be told the things he says to you and you should not be the one trying to smooth things over.

Keep reading all the posts here. You are not alone.

November 15, 2001
4:10 pm
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Ladeska
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Toffee.....and please know that we talk as strongly as we do because - we remember the pain - vividly and know how many years it took before - we wised up. And....I'm not sure that there is any other road to walk than this one....(sigh)....it seems to be - the way it is - that most people don't listen and keep going until their pain threshold is so high and they almost go over the edge and "then" they "might" stop and go - Oh.....there's another turn in the road I might should have taken? So, we'll rant and try to give advice, but the bottomline is - do you want to take action, have you had enough pain? When you can answer that as "yes" - then and only then will all this stop. But, don't sit around and wait for the wheels to start turning because someone else does something... The power to blast you out of this - will come from you - you, not from him or anyone else. Neither will it's steam be dependent on them either. This really isn't about him - it's about "you".

November 15, 2001
8:21 pm
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ms. T
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Toffee -- it's amazing how many of these threads I read and find are similar to my codependent friend's story. She was in a relationship with a psychopath who had no ability to feel true human bonding and even after he lied, cheated repeatedly, became addicted to online romance and pornography, took her for tens of thousands of dollars, and left her in a home with her nine-year-old daughter knowing he hadn't paid the power bill for several months and it would probably be turned off, she still said to me, "he's really a likeable person." I had a really hard time with that one. I have a hard time with your story, too. I have recently sought counseling for my own codependency issues related to this friend I tried so hard to "fix," and I can tell from what I've read that you have codependent tendencies also. Get yourself some help and break the pattern!

November 15, 2001
9:04 pm
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REally IT IS ONLY CUZ WE CARE.

you will do what you need to do regardless of what we day.

Looks like, as a group, we are saying...to you...

"GET THE HELL OUTA DODGE"

meaning

get out of the dead end relationship you are in....

find YOU...

LOVE you...

go on from there.

But it is 100% up to YOU.

Whatever you decide most of will be here, responding...sometimes naughty...(blondie) sometimes nice (molly)
and the rest of in between.

WE will accept you unconditionally...and expect you to do the same.

Whatever you decide will be tough

to stay...and be hurt repeatedly til you do leave

or leave and go throught the shit now.

Prayers.....

November 16, 2001
12:02 pm
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Molly
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You really need to look at the site, healthyplace.com and look at the questions posed on the site regarding narcissism. Pick up the book Verbal Abuse, I think its Deborah TAnnen, but you can find it in the self help section. These cyclitic relationships make you crazy, you don't know what is left, or right, far less right or wrong. For every action there is a reaction, then reaction. I am quite certain, that small thread of survivor in you is the bitch that comes out, just like the two year old that is powerless, trying to streach his boundries, all you can do is toss a fit, scream and shout, then go to the corner for a time out, until he comes to get you out of it. The truth is you are a prisioner of your own making, you have the key to a different quality of life, should you choose to persue it. Devine intervention, doesn't always look like what you expect to see, and you have the choice of accepting life the way it is, or making choices that serve the dream of life quality that you want, its all up to you. Some people your never ever going to jump high enough, they keep raising the standard, some people you can never ever do enough for, and your always feeling empty, personally I think your nuts for not getting that $500 dollar coat for your self, I mean that is really a big clue into your behavior, but ya know what ever floats your boat is ok by me. ugh, if you want we can be slightly more verbally abusive, and I know Blondie, and Ladeska, and Janes too would like a new coat. Just look at your actions, and then look at your words, and try to get them in sink.

November 22, 2001
4:25 pm
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toffee
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ok girls, i havent come back for a while because quite frankly i know what you were all going to say, i would have said the same myself.
I have been on here seeking help and talking about success for a couple of years now and under different guises.
Quite frankly, at times I am ashamed.
I think I have it all together and then i dont..so i come back as some one else.
Well, he has quit drinking...i was dealing with phys, emotional and drinking abuse a couple years ago and pregnant to boot.
HE hasnt touched me, no matter how heated the argument...plus
That is a plus for me, pathetic, i shouldnt be worried about a man hitting me in an argument and then giving him points if he doesnt, granted, but this is the father of my children and he is in a differnt category.
This sounds wierd and unrational but you all know that the father of your children is not a blind date..they have more credit.
If we were discussing a score systme that is..
NExt, he doesnt drink, hardly at all.
I am proud of him BUT i think some of hte issues he was covering when he drank are closer to the surface.
For the last year he quit working because he was burnt out from our business...he said he was meant for more. HE did have back probs and stomach probs ( i think from drinking ) i put him on aloe vera juice, licorice ..( im a natural healer ) and he got better, but guess what I got worse - health wise.
My adrenaline glands were gone, the doc said from repeated stress...gee i wonder where that came from, BUT I AM NOT GOING TO BLAME..I HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY
I found it hard to get out of bed and walk, he was at home and supposed to be caring for the kids but i was lucky if he did more than the dishes and breakfast.. I had to literally drag myself around the house to still care for thekids and i found myself yelling and screaming at him to get me a drink or some food. I had turned into a monster, i was so angry that my health had faile d and he failed to bring in money. I had a car accident five years prior which injured my back (back was always problematic because of this) and i received financial comp for htis. As soon as i got the money i used it for morgage and bills, because we had no money. I was veyr angry about this but perhaps i should not be. HE was looking for work and could nto find any ( not very hard ) HE has since merged with another company that does similar work so that he can get paid a wage and profit sharing ( small business ) from work that he gets for them. Well he couldnt get contracts for us but he gets contracts for them..this pisses me off. THey ar the same busines and heis basically givbing them all our leads - mine included.
HE had me design up a brochure for them andthey were so happy they gave him a raise ( of course he did not mention that i had done half the work )
I feel, well, as long as it bring our family income.
I am a very forgiving andunderstanding woman. I am more education and intelligent than he is and he has profited tremendousy.
I dont know why, but i feel used.
HE says "how could i use you, what for?"
Everything is for the family...
He says we have not been living off YOUR money..i said well yes we have, my credit card, our line of credit ( which i will have to pay cause he is claiming bankrupsy )
I am thousands in debt..
I have ex credit, i feel ashamed.
He is now working and covering about 50 % liv expenses. What about debt?
HE has not plans and says he is doing the best he can.
I have started a business with an amazing couple of ladies, I should be resting and raisng my children alone but I do not want to claim bankrupsy.
IT is a mad scramble.
I love him and he can be a gentleman. HE is pretty sensitive and kind. HE says that I am very emotional and hostile a lot....I used to believe in my feelings..
I have to believe in my feelings.
HE is going to get a vasectomy this weekend so we can sleep together again, he has been sleepign on the couch so as to not get me pregnant..like he doesnt trust me.
Beleive me i do not want to get pregnant again. He says he doesnt trust me but i have never doen anything to make him feel this way. I am very honest and loving.
HE has dropped nasty friends for me, he quit going out fri nighs and drinking..for me, he quit drinking.., he doesnt EVER hit me, he is more thoughtful and shows a bit more appreciation. We have ten years invested...
You all sound so clever and strong, jsut as i thought i was..I think i am doing the right thing but you are right..i do believe i have been somewhat brain washed.
I want so bad to keep our family together, he wont leave when i ask for a seperation just to see the forest ( instead of jsut the trees )
HE says it would be perm, couples rarely get back together after seperation.
I am a very successful woman and many people like and appreciate me, i just made a good female friend for the first time in 12 years. I have met other people around my new business who are well impressed with my talents and accomplishments and want to really support me. I say this because it is so shocking,at home i do not get these feelings of awe and support. In my family of origin i never felt that i was worthy so i selected boyfriends who were less than and who treated me bad and went on to marry them;.
i am really started to realise how amazing i truly am. My hubby actually seems to be jealous. When i was working on my biz during his "burn out" he did a lot of sabotaging actions but this may not have been intentional.
For instance, yesterday i needed his lap top to do a presentation to a potential employee. He came home and i asked to borrow it and he said "no, i need it and it is preciosu to me, you might break it " He has access to my computer, files, discs, camera, printer etc..But he wouldnt let me use his fuckin lap top, like i was a child! Now, when i get angry about things like that, i express them to him, but i am careful not to be abusive about it. I am also careful not to dwell on it and i say "well i didnt need it, i was sucessful without it" But, now that i think about it, that was just bullshit. HE also takes it with him, and he doesnt even need the damn thing. I need it more than him for my new biz. HE also takes my cell phone, i asked for it the other day and he said he needs it more than me. i am paying the fuckin bills. Ok, im getting angry here, getting in touch with it..lol
I just do not want to get caught up in rage any more, i feel stepped on and mistreated still, but i am not going to stay with that feeling, i am goign to empower myself without his help andsupport. I will not count on him. But here i am with OUR children and he has his biz and i have mine and who is doing 200% again..me..and i have to becareful of this, my doc warned me about over doing again. I need to build back my adrenaline functions..cut back my stress.
I do NOT want to be dependent upon him, but it would be nice to know that I can trust him to support us and not threaten to walk out again and the next intense argument ( because i have felt boundary violation )
WEll, i really appreciate all that you girls have to say, there is nothing like being in the company of women for healing and support.
Blondie, i cried when i read your story on the other thread..i am praying that you will be healthy and live a long life. You have come through the wars and have turned your scars into medals, what an amazing person..you should share and share and share because there are few women like you who have not succumb to such a life of suffering..
God bless you all.

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