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Snow - did he call and are you ok?
December 30, 2005
12:12 pm
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KatDec2005
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Hi Snow

I have'nt read all the threads as yet and our last conversation ended a few days ago. Did he call and are you ok? Did you manage to get your house keys back?

December 30, 2005
12:16 pm
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garfield9547
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I would also like to know about the keys???

How are you Snow?

Garfield

December 30, 2005
12:22 pm
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snowlover
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He called....I got the keys last night. I posted what happened last night on that old thread.....VERY frustrated....snowlover. Im a little unsure of everything today. Not about wanting to end things, Im sure of that, just unsure of how I feel about him, myself, everything. I feel like my eyes opened last night, and Im sad, just very sad.

December 30, 2005
12:49 pm
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KatDec2005
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Snow, be strong, you are doing really well, you have managed to get your keys back and you still haven't changed your mind. You are alot stronger than you think.

I mean who else could put up with that for so many years! An angel if you ask me, one with tremendous patience. When I'm feeling really down my counselor always tells me to do some exercise...cliche I know but I usually go for a walk, get some fresh air, take in the atmosphere remind myself who I am. Is there anything that you like doing?

December 30, 2005
12:50 pm
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garfield9547
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Give more information. I missed out.

Ao glad about the keys.

Garfield

December 30, 2005
1:05 pm
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snowlover
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Kat.....I love to powerwalk, and actually havent done it in months because he used to pick on me about it. I have TONS of exercise equipment at his house, and just told him last night I wanted it at my house with me. I agree with you, exercize makes me feel better, so I need to make time for that again.

I feel emotionally drained today. Like I finally see all that I have put up with, and how exhausting it has been to try to make him happy. I cant make him happy, no one can, and its just sad to know that I guess.

December 30, 2005
1:12 pm
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snowlover
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Garfield.....last night wasnt any different than it ever is with him as of late. he picked on me, told me everything was may fault, denied cheating on me, said I over react to everything, told me what an annoyance I am, informed me for the first time he hates women and thinks they serve only one purpose, said how great i would be if I would just keep my mouth shut and stop being so mean to him all the time and tons more things that arent even worth mentioning.

As soon as he showed up at my place I felt weak. Just being near him made me feel weak. We ended up in bed, of course, thats all he wants me for anymore, and afterwards he was a total jerk, same as always. We talked on the phone for 4 hours after he left.

I SEE him now, i really see him. he doesnt love himself, he hates himself. he doesnt think hes better than me, he TRIES to believe that. I think his self esteem is worse than mine, but to make himself feel better he has to keep me feeling horrible about myself. If I dont NEED him it drives him crazy. I think he sees me changing and he knows hes beginning to lose control and he cant deal with it.

I know there are lots more bumps in the roads, but for the first time in 20 years I dont feel like hes better than me, or more worthy of love. Hes just sad and miserable and plain old mean.

December 30, 2005
1:34 pm
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KatDec2005
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Snow, seems to me like he's the one in need of help and not you. The fact that you have recognised what he really is like shows how much you have changed.

Don't stand for it, you deserve better. Start doing things for yourself, things that make you happy.

My ex mentally and physically abused me for 5 years. I was so worn out and lost by the end of it I was even too scared to go outside for a jog or too afraid to talk to any-one.

I lost myself to him, I gave him my heart and he tore it apart. In the end I realised that no amount of love, nothing that I did would ever change him and make him love me.

I took my heart back and walked away. I can't say it was easy, it was the hardest thing I ever did but the memory of me walking away puts a smile to face even now, 8 years later.

I think to myself, what if I gave in? What if I stayed? I would of been so miserable and now I have myself back and my heart (bruised) but intact. Look afteryourself Snow.
Healing takes time and we will be here for you all the way.

x x x

December 30, 2005
1:42 pm
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snowlover
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Kat...thanks so much for your words of encouragement. I keep asking myself "do you want ANOTHER 20 years of feeling like this??". the answer is always no, every single time.

I always saw hope, no matter what. if i just did more for him, was nicer to him, didnt complain so much, helped him more, then he would love me like he used to. No he wont, hes incapable of loving me or anyone, at least right now.

Maybe this is off base, but I wonder if hes more comfortable with his ex wife right now because she DID screw around on him so much while they were married. Like, he KNOWS to expect that she wont be faithful, so maybe that excuses his own infidelities? Like it makes it okay to sleep around, cuz well,. shes going to do it. I wonder if I make him uncomfortable because he knows I would NEVER cheat on him. hes always telling me I think Im better than him, and sarcastically says "youre wonderful, youre perfect ". it drives me nuts, but I wonder if there could be some truth in my theory??

December 30, 2005
1:43 pm
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garfield9547
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Snow

Things will get better over time.

You will have more strenght to say no.

It's early days and it has been 20 years. You see him for what he is.

So good to hear you feel more in control. Yes, his going to hate it.

You can see for the first time you are not as bad as your head told you you are????

Yes, you are on your way

Garfield

December 30, 2005
1:50 pm
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KatDec2005
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Snow, don't try to reason with his feelings and what he does and why he does it, you will never understand.

I tried to do that with my ex and you'll end up going around in circles, they are that way and thats that. It's not your responsibility to fix him because he is a grown adult who is responsible for his own actions.

This is a trick my counselor taught me that really helped me. Tell me when you are alone at home and that voice in your head starts to beat you down, how do you feel? Could you put an image to it. Mine is a "baby" when that voice in my head starts beating me up, I feel out of control and helpless so my counselor said to me what can the baby do to make you smile. So I say: "I'd like it to dance, you know those funny dances?"

So now, when my head is hurting and my "voice" is beating me down, I picture my baby and he's dancing.

I know it seems silly but it really worked for me and it helped me sleep to. Infact I giggle now when I see it.

December 30, 2005
1:57 pm
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KatDec2005
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By the way, I don't have a baby I just feel like one sometimes

lol

December 30, 2005
2:27 pm
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garfield9547
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Snow

As you know my father was a N. So I was never in the front line like you. Althought it felt like it some days. Just something for you. From sam Vaknin's Site

Grieving a Narcissist
by NickySkye

"If a relationship with a N is life in the Twilight Zone, then healing from a pattern of relationships with Ns is the Dawn Zone. When N-Codependents despise the Ns in their life for the abuse enough to want it to stop, really and truly stop, the beginning of freedom has begun. Leaving any N has more layers than a Napoleon pastry, each one painful in a different way."
member NickySkye

Dear Recovery Friends:

Grieving the loss of a relationship with a Narcissist has many layers. They are not the usual layers of grieving a healthy person. The problem is that some of the layers ARE the same as grieving a healthy person but then there are layers reserved only for the loss of an N relationship, which are not understood by the 'civilian' population and can ONLY be understood by those who have survived a significant relationship with a Narcissist or Psychopath.

In a healthy relationship break-up one grieves:

The dream of love not continuing.
The break in the continuity of the familiar.
The pain of saying goodbye.
The sadness of the exchange of ill will in the parting.
A sense of loss.
Living with the nostalgia of things one used to do together, broken memories of past pleasures.
Hope interrupted.
Well wishing put aside for self-survival.

Those are typical feelings that can come up after a break-up of a healthy relationship.But grieving an N there are other ingredients, not available to the public understanding, such as:

The nightmare of going from being idealized to being devalued.

Discovering the web of lies on many levels.

Coming to terms with the terrible, terrible understanding that one was not an object of love but a source of Narcissistic Supply. That in itself is so painful that it has many stages of comprehension

The dawning of understanding that one's nostalgia and tender memories of affection for the N were corrupted by the N's agenda.

Not being believed by people about some of the weird things the N did and feeling isolated in one's grief more than in grieving a healthy break-up.

Discovering with some horror, mingled with relief of a strange kind, that the person one loved was not the person one thought one loved. Everything about the relationship shifts into the garish clinical light of the DSMlV. One's object of former love is now something of a lab specimen, "a typical N".

Not being able to let go with love but having to let go only with understanding. The closure itself has the sadness of knowing the ex is disfigured, deformed but always dangerous.

When one hears one's healthy ex is having sex with a new person, married, or has gone on in their life, there is a sting of sadness, the nostalgia for 'what could have been'. That itself, the astringency becomes part of the detaching. And as time goes by that sting becomes a well wishing, including the ex in one's loving prayers. The ex gets woven into the fabric of one's fond memories.

But with an xN, news of their present life always bring chills of fear and twinges of unresolved grieving. Who are they hurting now? Will they ever come into my life again? Was I not important to them, was all that for nothing?

Knowing about the N's need for Narcissistic Supply one cannot help thinking will they come back for my NS? Was *my* NS something they treasured and miss? But in the light of day, understanding the N means that one is not valued for who one IS but only as a commodity, for NS, empty, meaningless NS.

After the detachment is physically complete with an N there is the nagging abyss of was that all for nothing? It's a terrible loss and there is nowhere to go with that loss. It's static. It doesn't evolve into lost love. It just remains as a loss. Grieving a N is a burden, it's a hole in one's life.

Love, NickySkye

December 30, 2005
2:29 pm
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garfield9547
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And here comes the 7 stages from Sam Vaknin's site

The Seven Stages of Recovery from Narcissist-Inflicted Trauma
courtesy Still Smilin

1) The Roadkill Stage
This is when you finally hit bottom due to the experience with a Narcissist.

2) The Realization Stage.
This is when the answers to the questions that have been plaguing you begin to get answered and you now know what it is you have been dealing with all this time. You begin to research everything you can find on Narcissism. You usually feel better that you know, but the sense of betrayal begins to hit you like a Mack truck. Unfortunately, you start to feel angry at yourself for letting it go on for so long.

3) The Anger Stage
This is when the full impact of what you went through hits home and all hell breaks loose! Anger is uncomfortable, but I think it is a necessary step towards healing. At first, it is like an erupting volcano, then it usually evolves in focusing on how to get through. If you don't let as much of the anger out at this stage, you will stay stuck for a longer period of time. (I did this).

4) Taking Affirmative Action Stage
This is when you begin to learn to effectively focus your new-found knowledge into making life decisions. This is also the period where you begin to learn and practice techniques on how to protect yourself from the Narcissist. This is the stage where some decide on divorce, relocating, changing jobs, and lifestyle changes. This is also a time of great upheaval, because the Narcissist usually knows that the "gig is up" The Narcissist will fight you tooth and nail to win. This is a crucial stage in healing, because it is at this stage that the Narcissist will also try to "put on the charm" to return you to status quo. The Narcissist can be very vicious at this stage. It is usually best to have as little contact as possible with the Narcissist. It is also the time to continue to learn about how to continue to protect yourself and continue to focus on you and your healing.

5) The Fall-Out Stage
This is when you become more comfortable in your knowledge of how to deal with the Narcissist, where you begin to forgive yourself, where you begin to feel better about yourself and your abilities. You are actively planning your future, getting to know yourself again, and you notice how much better physically and emotionally you feel out of the presence of the Narcissist. The fog of Narcissism has lifted somewhat and you begin to get your confidence back. While this is happening, you are still experiencing the waves of the past stages, it seems to come in cycles that diminish in intesity over time.

6) The Mirroring Stage
Not everyone goes through this stage, it is a personal decision. This is when you mirror the Narcissists behavior back at them, effectively scaring them off! I was particularily fond of this stage, because it allowed me to siphon off the anger and project it back to the person who caused it. It is effective in scaring off the Narcissist, but sometimes it takes many sessions of "mirroring" before the stubborn Narcissist finally "gets it". Unfortunately for many victims, many Narcissists aren't willing to accept that it is OVER and continually try to get back under the victims skin using guilt, fear, pity, threats, violence and financial abuse. Many Narcissists keep "coming back for more NS."

Depending on how you handle the Narcissist in this stage, it will depend on how long this stage lasts. If you, even for a moment give the Narcissist ANY NS at all, show any vulnerability, sympathy, fear, or confusion, it will put you back a few stages and you will have to work your way through again. This cycle can happen many times.

7) Realization and Apathy
Once you effectively block all means of communication with the Narcissist as efficiently as possible, protect yourself from them as much as you can, gain knowledge and confidence in yourself, you reach a stage of realization that there was nothing you could have done to help or prevent the nightmare that you just lived through. You start looking for effective ways to manage your life, work towards your new future and close the door in the face of the Narcissist. The most effective way that I have found to do this is with APATHY. Apathy works. It requires very little work on your part. You display no outward emotions towards the Narcissist, who seems to forever be trying to re-enter your life for the coveted NS, you yawn frequently whenever they have something to say, you outright IGNORE their existence as if they died.

Eventually, in a sense they do die, because without your attention, without your sympathy, without your guilt, without your adoration, without your anger, and without your fear, they do wither away and die. If there is nothing for them to affirm their existence through you, and they cannot exist around you. It is not to say that they won't try. They want to be able to evoke an emotional response in you. If you don't give them any, then eventually, like Pavlov's dog they figure out the bowl is empty and move on to the next victim. This stage can take some time, because as we know, the Narcissist does not give up on precious supply sources easily.
Hugs from Still Smilin

December 30, 2005
2:54 pm
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garfield9547
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Snow

It is 9.53 PM where I stay.

What is the time at your place?

December 30, 2005
3:03 pm
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snowlover
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Garfield.....right now it is 3:03 in the afternoon where I am.

As for Sams list....i feel like Im at stage 2...and I think I just got there this morning.

December 30, 2005
3:07 pm
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garfield9547
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Good news Snow.

I have to cut and paste this for you.

PROJECTION: A GLIMPSE INTO HELL

(Abbreviations used: N/P Narcissist/Psychopath)

Has your abuser ever accused you of the most vile, cruel lies?Accused you of being crazy? Twisted everything you say into something grotesque? Most of us have experienced that with the NP in our lives. We are left emotionally reeling. The hurt can be nearly unbearable. You were likely experiencing 'projection'. To make things simple, he is accusing you of what he is THINKING, DOING OR PLANNING. It is very hurtful to us when they project their thoughts, feelings, behaviours, and impulses and pathololgize the people they target.

Projection is not an easy concept to learn. We need to twist our way of thinking. An important part of realizing projection is to remember Ps have the emotional maturity of a 5-year old!! They are like the little boy caught breaking a toy who says "Jimmy made me do it". "Look what you made me do!" Now the P 'projects' on us as they accuse us... "You're the one whose cheating, destroying the marriage, lying etc.

Those terribly hurtful words hurt us so very much. We are devastated trying to understand where they came up with the idea. What could we have done that they reacted so vehemently about? We are stunned by their words. They hurt us to the core.

So, you ask yourself "Is he doing this just to be intentionally and horribly cruel? He must know it's ridiculous. Maybe he's using it as a way to end the relationship, but what a terrible way to do it". That is your rational and very logical reasoning trying to make sense of what's happening. The truth can be even uglier. He is indeed saying what he is doing, thinking or planning. Coming to this realization can give you a glimpse into the hell of their mind. It is a defence mechanism of their disordered psyche. Professionals are trained to recognize it. Doctors use it as a barometer in diagnosing a psychiatric problem vs. a physiological one. Even the most trained and hardened psychotherapy professionals who often get the brunt of this have a hard time dealing with it. Our own normal egos get damaged.

To protect yourself from your Ps projecting, try to mentally build a barrier to stop his words from entering and hurting you. Ignore his words. You might say something like "I'm sorry you feel that way." or "I need you to stop blaming me". It's often better to make no remark at all. It's bait, don't take the bait. Don't give him the satisfaction of a reaction. That's what he's after. His payoff here can be any response from you either by body language, facial expression or words you use. Keep your ears open, his projection might give you a good look into what he's doing, and this can benefit anybody facing a divorce/custody case.

December 30, 2005
3:22 pm
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Wow....that makes sense. ALL he does anymore is accuse me of EVERYTHING. His big thing right now is how I am trying to control him 100%, which is sooooo not true. He has accused me of screwing around, lying about him to people, turning his kids against him, turning people in our town against him, being a manipulator, being impossible to talk to and deal with, being deceitful and cruel and about a million other things I cant think of right now.

Yep..Im definitely at Stage 2 right now. How can you go 20 years without seeing all the signs? Everything is beginning to look a bit clearer. Last night was bad, but I guess it was nescessary. I felt so horrible for sleeping with him again, but maybe I needed to go thru that to see deeper into his soul. the sad thing is, there isnt much to see inside of him anymore.

December 30, 2005
3:27 pm
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garfield9547
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Snow

Yes, maybe it was necesary. N-dipping is normal. At least you realise it.

You are just human. You have feelings he hasn't.

Take it an hour at a time. I would not wish this on anybody, but it is a road worth walking, you are on the road to a healthy you.

Garfield

December 30, 2005
3:35 pm
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snowlover
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Thanks Garfield....you always seem to find exactly the right thing to post at just the right time.

No-dipping. Ive read about that, I guess that is what happened last night. Funny thing is, its not as much fun as it used to be. it feels empty afterwards. it sort of feels empty during too if Im honest.

Snow

December 30, 2005
3:37 pm
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garfield9547
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Snow

Your eyes are starting to open.

I can imagine after all this information that sex and anything for that matter would never be the same...

Garfield

December 30, 2005
3:52 pm
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Snow

I have to go. Will catch up later.

Good Night and don't let the bed buggs bite, if they bite hold them tight until tomorrow night.

Hugs

Garfield

Recognizing and Stopping Verbal Manipulation
Bullyproofing Skills

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#1 "I'm wondering why you're reading this page." Are you looking at these words trying to figure out how to respond? If so, you just took the bait. Have a look at the words again "I'm wondering why you're reading this page." Notice anything odd?? It's not a question!! It's a statement!! Don't answer statements.
Here's another: Your abuser is in the kitchen and says:"I can't find the sugar." Did you jump up to get it for him? If so, then his manipulative tactic worked. He didn't even have to ask you to get it. He only had to state his dilemma. You are being conditioned to respond. He has you pegged as a 'people pleaser' the perfect target.
Abusers hate asking questions because it means they may loose control. So they use the 'disguised question'. Watch for them. They often have a "rING" to them (I'm wondering, hoping, thinking) or "Perhaps you'd ..." "I wish you'd..." "I thought you might want to ..." "I could use a little cash..."
Another trick is 'attributed' statements. "We were wondering" "They said..." "She said...." They "attribute their statements to somebody else or a 'group.' This tactic, of course, places blame elsewhere, and is intimidating because your abuser appears to have others involved.
Strategy #1. Answer Questions only, never answer statements -- Train your ears to recognize and distinguish which are comments and which are questions. Learn to ask Yes/No question. Repeat their last 3 or 4 words back to them, in a questioning manner. Be fully aware of any potential for violence, and if so, leave NOW!! Abusive questions like "Are you still beating your wife?" are a common insult. Watch out for these insult and accusation-disguised questions. An abuser's well-worn tactic. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book. Don't dignify it with a response.

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#2 "WE were hoping you'd..."
WHOA, HOLD THE PHONE .... "WE" ??? - that's the oldest trick in the book -- that ''WE' they throw out means YOU are being targeted. If all goes well, he takes the credit and, if not you'll be playing receiver in his blame game. Examples "If we could..." "We were hoping..." "We should..."
Strategy #2. Make a fast exit when you hear the 'WE' word.

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#3 F O G = Fear, Obligation and Guilt
Dr. Susan Forward does a fantastic job of describing FOG in her important book Emotional Blackmail. It rolls in slowly and blinds our ordinarily good judgement. Be on the watch for it!!
Examples: "Don't you care if...." "If you loved me..." "Everyone knows that..." "Every decent person..." Don't you think you (we) should..." "Why don't you..." "Wouldn't it be better if..." "Can't you take a joke?" "You could never do..." "I thought that's what you wanted" "Do we all agree..." "It's reasonable to expect..." "We've already...." "I needed to..." "You don't think I meant...do you?" "We were counting on you to..." "Aren't you going to..."
Strategy #3. Know your vulnerabilities to 'FOG'. Minimize your exposure to them, and say "No". Ignore their words and be aware of our susceptibility of wanting to reply to their questions/statements. Don't take their bait. Expect them to howl - let them.

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#4 Picking a Fight - The Confrontational Choice of Words
"Why do you always..." "Do you expect me to..." "I can't believe you would..." "I thought we were going to..." "Why should I have to..." "I've been told that..." "How could you..." "Why don't you..." "Did you hear me?" "Well, does that mean that I have to...." "I thought you..." "Don't you think you(we) should..." Are you telling me..." "I thought we agreed..." "Only an idiot would..." are examples of verbal attack moves. These are phrases used to put you on the defensive. So, like a good chess player, set up a strategic counter move. Just say "That's my decision", "I know you're unhappy, but that's the way it is" "I'll have to think about that" "You seem upset" "We don't always have to agree." "I prefer it that way" Learn the art and science of not taking the bait. Let some things slide. Don't respond to bad behaviour. It's their confrontational chip-on-the-shoulder that you're seeing now. These confrontational questions are pure bait and he's looking for a fight. Don't take the bait!!
Strategy #4. Be aware of verbal tactics that make you feel you want to defend yourself. Know you do not have to defend yourself. To minimize their ability to 'bait' you it may be best to just agree and say "You're right" and drop the subject. One difficult part of this is to realize it's hard for us to not say "I'm sorry but..." Expect the inevitable hissy-fit rage when they're manipulation is ended, IGNORE THEIR WORDS, simply say something like "We'll talk later when you aren't so upset." Try to avoid saying "I'm sorry but..."

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#5 The 'silent treatment' is another form of abuse. This amounts to a 'Mexican standoff' of whose going to talk first. He wants to find out how long before you'll crack and what issues you'll bring up - That's His Payoff. Simply say "Let me know when you feel like talking". Say nothing else. Act like 'no big deal' and put a smile on your face. If you react now it will become his tactic in future.
Strategy #5. Know this is a control technique. Learn what their 'payoff' is.

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#6 PRESUPPOSITIONS - (ASSUMED COMPLIANCE - and other tricks of the conman 'snake-oil' salesman) - "Do you want the red one or the blue one?" "Which do you think...?": (Offer a choice tactic!)
"I was sure you'd want to" "You'll be pleased that ...." "Aren't you happy that...", "I know you'll like..." "I know you'll want to..." "Perhaps you'd like to..." "Many people agree that..." "I thought you and I were a team. " I'm sure it's occurred to you..." "You and I..."
Aren't you just thrilled he's including you? He's controlling you for your own happiness, right? Take a step back Buster!! I'm not falling for that old line. Be prepared with your "I'll let you know", "I'll have to think about that", "No, I don't want to" "I disagree"
Must Reads - "Presupposition and the Art of Verbal Manipulation and Abuse"
http://users.idworld.net/wlldggr/lf1.htm
Presuppositions http://www.angelfire.com/nd/da.....resup.html
Strategy #6. Watch out for people who make plans for you, it usually benefits them.
We're programmed to respond at a conversational pause and to offer suggestions or help. Our 'niceness' is being targeted.

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7. The Raging Bull
Now he verbally 'acts out'. Let it die down like a nasty summer storm. Leave the room, or tell him to leave. Don't waste your time getting in this conversation. You may get a chuckle out of their obvious provoking and baiting phrases.
Strategy #7. Ignore his words. We don't have to respond. "I'm sorry you feel that way."often catches them off guard. Raging is part of their disorder. He needs and will work hard to get a reaction from you, so don't take his bait. This is the equivalent of an adult 'tantrum'. Suggested response: "We'll talk about this later when you've calmed down."

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8. The 'Sidewinder'
Asking a question of a pathological liar is inviting lies. Fearing loss of control, they'll ricochet around like mad to avoid answering, or asking questions. He'll likely say "Oh well that all depends..."Well, I'm not sure..." or change the subject completely.
Strategy #8. Document and verify any responses. Avoid asking questions and avoid him! Avoid any agreements, including legal ones - even these aren't honoured. Make them be the ones to ask. Don't ask them for anything and don't do anything for them either. Be self-reliant and financially and emotionally free of them. The personality disordered don't honour even legal written agreements. And, the onus of collection and all that goes with that will be your problem.

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We have used the male gender -- your verbal abuser could be female. Non-commercial use of this page with creditation to our site is allowed.
cont'd. to page 2

December 30, 2005
6:46 pm
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sdesigns
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Garfield: Once again, thanks for a great post.

The part that gets to the core for me is:

"Coming to terms with the terrible, terrible understanding that one was not an object of love but a source of Narcissistic Supply. That in itself is so painful that it has many stages of comprehension The dawning of understanding that one's nostalgia and tender memories of affection for the N were corrupted by the N's agenda."

Thats what hurts. I meant nothing to him. He was using me. Period.

You always have the most wonderful references. SD

December 30, 2005
10:59 pm
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taj64
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Snow, just remember that guilt is a useless emotion. No good comes from guilt. I sense that you are guilty which is making it difficult for you to let go of this man. You have nothing to be guilty of. You are simply rebuilding your life. I see a man who is manipulating you back but is not going to come through for you. the more he reels you in, the more hurt you will feel. You deserve better than all this man is causing you.

December 31, 2005
9:05 am
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snowlover
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Taj.....I know, youre right. Guilt is a huge issue for me, it always has been. I feel guilty for EVERYTHING for everyone. If someone is unhappy I feel like I need to fix it or I feel bad. Its almost impossible for me to say NO to anyone. Im not sure exactly why that is.

I know I grew up with alcoholic parents who were exceptionally physically and emotionally abusive, so maybe it stems from always trying to keep quiet and behave, not stir the waters or upset anyone, and sort of try to just be invisible. The more invisible I was, the less chance of getting in trouble, or so i thought anyway. My parents were really big on blaming me for everything my little sisters did, so Im pretty used to taking the blame for everyone also.

Of course my BF knows all of this, so who know..maybe he uses that knowledge to his advantage. Im not sure thats something a N does, but I do think I read that they want to get in your head and know about past damage or bad experiences so they know how to react and respond to you. Sort of sadistic when you think about it.

Im not sure how I feel yet today. Definitely still in stage 2, and right now wondering if and when another "N dipping" will take place.

Snow

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