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Should I stay or should I GO? Only Im to know?!
January 9, 2000
6:12 am
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hazza
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Thanks Guys,
Glad im not the only one who feels we can make it on our own. Of course i would love therapy. But i have no money at the moment and no job (working on starting a catering business though, have just got contract to do lunches saturdays at the local college, may bring in some money hopefully)
Anyway, broc???? there are 3 of us now, so you still say it is IMPOSSIBLE to make it without therapy? šŸ˜‰
Hazza

January 9, 2000
10:49 am
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VRJ
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Speaking of 'no therapy'. I certainly don't put it down. I went myself. In fact I looked everywhere for help - therapy, friends, internet, books, etc. and I will say that I feel I received help from all of those things. But the biggest help I received or maybe it's a realization I've come to is that I am my biggest help and the answers are within me and noone else can truly help me. I have to help myself. I think those other things helped to steer me in the right direction or give me things to think about but the solution is mine alone. So, I no longer see a counselor, read as much, or ask others for solutions. And I certainly can afford a counselor. I just realized it's time to do it myself, to confront any issues, admit any shortcomings, stand up for my beliefs. As Broc says, "If nothing changes, nothing changes". I wish all of you the best in whatever path you choose. I'll just say that my current relationship has improved 1000% since I learned to look inward instead of outward. By changing myself I change the whole dynamic of the relationship. NO FEAR.

January 10, 2000
9:22 am
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eve
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VRJ,
I think an additional point for what you are saying, is that I am the only one who's solutions I will accept (and not even those sometimes ;-)). By this I don't want to say that nobody else could know better, a therapist propably does, that's their job. But even when somebody else tells me what is right it's still me who has to believe it and act accordingly. There is a trite saying: you are grown up when you do the right thing, even if your parents tell you so. So I'd say if I don't change, nothing changes.

January 10, 2000
3:47 pm
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BROC
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Wow. I leave for a few days and WHAMMO!

Where to start.

Hazza: Yes, you are right, at least on the first part. Avas bf is just like I used to be. I choose needy gf's to validate who I was. If I could hook up with a woman who was needy, then that gave me a purpose. I could "take" care of them. I could do everything for them because after all, they were helpless. And, the truth is, most of the were. Scratch that, all of them were.

You see, they always looked to me for the answer. In codependent circles its knows as treating them as your higher power. Giving them power over you. The girls I went with were needy because they too were codependent. They HAD to have a man int their life. They HAD to be taken care of. I HAD to have a woman that was needy. Boy, it was a match made in heaven.......actually hell.

I was very popular. I was admired by all. Inside, I was a lump of shit. You know the rest.

So, yes, her bf is screwed up. He will alway be until he fixes himself.

AVA, my dear. Your still togehter. If that makes you happy, great. I can tell you this. IF he doesnt' get help too, on his own, it will never work. NEVER!

Now, to Hazza, Ava, and Eve, VRJ, and the rest of ya.

Yes, I agree that you can go through your recovery on your own. After all, that IS ESSENTIAL! You concentrate on YOU. That is the only way you will ever be successful. Now, for the tricky part...therapy. Yes, you can read books on this subject. Yes, you can come to this sight. Yes yes yes.

HOWEVER, ISSUES SUCH AS CODEPENDENCY ARE ONLY THE SYMPTOMS OF THE PROBLEM... IT IS NOT THE PROBLEM ITSELF. THE PROBLEM, THE THING OR THINGS THAT HAVE CAUSED THE DYSFUNCTIAL BEHAVIORS LIE DEEP WITHIN EACH OF US. FOR SOME OF US, IT WAS ABUSIVE PARENTS, RELATIVES. ALCHOHOL ABUSE, WORK-ALCOHOLISM, ON AN ON. ANY ONE OF A MILLION THINGS CAUSED/CONTRIBUTED TO THIS DYSFUNCTION. SO, ARE YOU SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW DETERMINE WHERE THE ISSUES WITHIN YOU COME FROM. WHERE THEY ORGINATED AND MOST OF ALL WHY?

NO, I DON'T THINK SO. IF YOU CAN, YOU NEED TO SET UP SHOP AND START CHARGING.

ALL I AM SAYING IS THIS. WITHOUT THE USE OF A THERAPIST, GOOD LUCK. I AM NOT SAYING YOU NEED YEARS OF IT, BUT YOU WILL, WITHOUT A DOUBT NEED A THERPAIST TO FIND OUT WHAT YOUR "ROOT" PROBLEMS ARE, AND TO HELP YOU DESIGN A PLAN OF ATTACT FOR ELIMINATING THEM.

SO, NO LADIES. I DISAGREE WHOLE HEARTEDLY. YOU NEED ONE AT LEAST TO DIAGNOIS. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL YOU CAN DO IT ALONE. I DON'T CARE HOW MANY STORYS YOU READ HERE, OR HOW MANY BOOKS YOU READ. WE ARE ALL THE SAME. WE DO REPEAT OUR LEARNED BEHAVIORS. HOWEVER, WE ARE UNIQUE IN THAT THE ROOTS OF OUR DYSFUNCTIONS ARE DIFFERENT. YOU CAN HAVE TWO PEOLE THAT ARE CODEPENDENT, BUT THOSE SAME TWO PEOPLE GOT THAT WAY FOR ENTIRELY TWO DIFFERENT REASONS.

AND THAT MY LADIES IS FACT, NOT FICTION.

BROC

January 10, 2000
3:50 pm
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Wow. I leave for a few days and WHAMMO!

Where to start.

Hazza: Yes, you are right, at least on the first part. Avas bf is just like I used to be. I choose needy gf's to validate who I was. If I could hook up with a woman who was needy, then that gave me a purpose. I could "take" care of them. I could do everything for them because after all, they were helpless. And, the truth is, most of the were. Scratch that, all of them were.

You see, they always looked to me for the answer. In codependent circles its knows as treating them as your higher power. Giving them power over you. The girls I went with were needy because they too were codependent. They HAD to have a man int their life. They HAD to be taken care of. I HAD to have a woman that was needy. Boy, it was a match made in heaven.......actually hell.

I was very popular. I was admired by all. Inside, I was a lump of shit. You know the rest.

So, yes, her bf is screwed up. He will alway be until he fixes himself.

AVA, my dear. Your still togehter. If that makes you happy, great. I can tell you this. IF he doesnt' get help too, on his own, it will never work. NEVER!

Now, to Hazza, Ava, and Eve, VRJ, and the rest of ya.

Yes, I agree that you can go through your recovery on your own. After all, that IS ESSENTIAL! You concentrate on YOU. That is the only way you will ever be successful. Now, for the tricky part...therapy. Yes, you can read books on this subject. Yes, you can come to this sight. Yes yes yes.

HOWEVER, ISSUES SUCH AS CODEPENDENCY ARE ONLY THE SYMPTOMS OF THE PROBLEM... IT IS NOT THE PROBLEM ITSELF. THE PROBLEM, THE THING OR THINGS THAT HAVE CAUSED THE DYSFUNCTIAL BEHAVIORS LIE DEEP WITHIN EACH OF US. FOR SOME OF US, IT WAS ABUSIVE PARENTS, RELATIVES. ALCHOHOL ABUSE, WORK-ALCOHOLISM, ON AN ON. ANY ONE OF A MILLION THINGS CAUSED/CONTRIBUTED TO THIS DYSFUNCTION. SO, ARE YOU SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW DETERMINE WHERE THE ISSUES WITHIN YOU COME FROM. WHERE THEY ORGINATED AND MOST OF ALL WHY?

NO, I DON'T THINK SO. IF YOU CAN, YOU NEED TO SET UP SHOP AND START CHARGING.

ALL I AM SAYING IS THIS. WITHOUT THE USE OF A THERAPIST, GOOD LUCK. I AM NOT SAYING YOU NEED YEARS OF IT, BUT YOU WILL, WITHOUT A DOUBT NEED A THERPAIST TO FIND OUT WHAT YOUR "ROOT" PROBLEMS ARE, AND TO HELP YOU DESIGN A PLAN OF ATTACT FOR ELIMINATING THEM.

SO, NO LADIES. I DISAGREE WHOLE HEARTEDLY. YOU NEED ONE AT LEAST TO DIAGNOIS. THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL YOU CAN DO IT ALONE. I DON'T CARE HOW MANY STORYS YOU READ HERE, OR HOW MANY BOOKS YOU READ. WE ARE ALL THE SAME. WE DO REPEAT OUR LEARNED BEHAVIORS. HOWEVER, WE ARE UNIQUE IN THAT THE ROOTS OF OUR DYSFUNCTIONS ARE DIFFERENT. YOU CAN HAVE TWO PEOLE THAT ARE CODEPENDENT, BUT THOSE SAME TWO PEOPLE GOT THAT WAY FOR ENTIRELY TWO DIFFERENT REASONS.

AND THAT MY LADIES IS FACT, NOT FICTION.

BROC

January 11, 2000
7:46 am
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hazza
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Hey Broc, thanks for your views, most of which I agree with, HOWEVER, I beleive ( maybe naively) that I can understand my root problems. I have spent along time thinking it through and I have seen in myself how things have come to pass, i have seen how my upbringing has got me here. Maybe i should train!!!

So on that i disagree, a therapist would help me delve deeper yes, but i know the issues that are in play in my psyche and on this one issue i trust my own judgement very well, I can explain my life and logic about its consequences if you wish to discuss my own analysis of myself, im quite happy to do that.

BUT, once you know the issues you have to do the work don't you, you could spend thousands getting to realise that you didn't get enough hugs when you were 5 yrs old, but after that you still need to cure it,
This is now what i am working on, THE CURE, i know what i need to work on in myself, i understand how i got there. I would be amazed if any therapist could tell me more about myself than i have found out already, I think in my case therapy would just be another sounding board to confirm ideas.

Why do you beleive that people can not become aware of these things on their own????
Just because you happened to learn them first through therapy?
You are wrong on this Broc, people can become aware of themselves without outside help. I HAVESEEN IT HAPPEN MANY TIMES, FACT!
I would say it is far easier and quicker to use a therapist to help you uncover yourself, and some people are just not the kind of people who can be objective about themselves, some people really can't analyse themselves, BUT SOME PEOPLE CAN, SURPRISINGLY WELL,

What in essense do you think a therapist could tell me, or others. You are very vague about what work is actually done in therapy, can you be a bit more specific about what they can acheive that the individual cant??

My mother went to various therapists over the years who told her exactly what i and others had told about herself. Trouble was she didn't like the truth so she changed therapists! I think any change can work with or without therapy, providing you accept that some of it you won't like.
I hate some of the realisations i came too about myself, but i have to accept them, Before i would have been in denial but now is the time for me to grow, no doubt i will learn even more about myself in the future.

But remember, therapists only apply techniques to get to the root of an issue or a person, the are not demi gods, this stuff is learned, the individual can learn it too, if they have the apptitude for that kind of thinking. You could well have done just as well on your own, had you had the reference books and the idea that something in you was "not quite right" you just saved yourself time by enlist a professional to guide you, that doesn't make it essential for everyone, i promise you, it just makes it quicker sometimes.
You are right that co-dep in a symptom, but some of us can find the roots of it alone, sometimes its bloody obvious, and surpising to realize you own state of denial about certain things, to truely ask yourself how you feel about something, often you didn't realise how bad somethings affected you, but you can talk though issues with yourself and make just as many surprise realisations, you just need to be honest

SO matey!!! going to argue some more? i think im developing some anger issues guys!!!

Take care
Hazza

January 11, 2000
11:09 am
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eve
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Hazza, here's a big hug from me! You said just what I wanted to say, only better.

And Broc, don't you dare "lady" me again. It's not so much better than "babe" when you use it that way.

Eve

January 11, 2000
12:19 pm
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kitten
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As one who has seen both sides of the issue, as client and therapist, I believe it is possible for an individual to help themselves. After all, a therapist should only be an "effective helper" (Rogers). The therapist is really there to help the client peel away the layers...but the client knows where to start peeling. Perhaps women are a little more adept at this because of conditioning. We are taught to be aware. Or it could be biological: gatherers rather than hunters. Always conscious of our surroundings, both emotionally and physically. Granted, while those that struggle with repression etc, would benefit from intense therapy, I believe that the most work a client does occurs outside of "session". I am happy with my therapist...he is very insightful...but often he is an expensive "ear".

Eve, I must say...I like your style!

January 11, 2000
5:29 pm
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BROC
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Eve,

Come on. I hope you jest. Ladies. If this is offensive, why do they use it to open nearly every play, concert, sporting event, etc. ever held.....as in Ladies and Gentleman. Give me a break.

Kitten,

Of course a therpaist is just a helper. A guide. However, I disagree with you about the client knowing where to start. If he/she knew that, they wouldn't be in your office in the first place (this kind of goes along with Hazza's belief)

Listen, 99% of the work done on me was a result of MY efforts. My therpaist got me started. Made me familiar with the terms, concepts, how they related to me. What issues are, where they come from, etc. The follow up WORK; book reading, seminars, lectures, group meetings were to learn more about what I had already learned from my counseling. I whole heartedly believe a person can figure this shit out on their own, ONLY after they have seen a specialist (therpist or the like) to determine what the problem is, and get them started on a road to recovery.

Hazza,

I was extremely codependent, and I, to be honest, don't even know if I knew that there was a word for it, let alone what it meant.

I didn't know what issues were. I had no idea in hell that because my Grandmother was an alcoholic that it would affect my life as profoundly as it has. Jesus, I could go on and on.

WHY IS THIS SITE LITTERED WITH PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO IDEA IN HELL WHATS GOING ON IN THERI LIVES. PEOPLE IN THE SAME CONDITION AS ME WHEN I FIRST ARRIVED. I HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND EITHER DO THEY!

Shit, just thought of something. Lets work backwards.

Cure----->Work------->Diagnois of Problem (Basically)

How many issues do you think there are in the world? Thousands? Probably several thousands. AND, most of us have more than one (issue). Knowing that, how can you tell me any ordinary Joe Schmo can just wake up, or realize in the shower what those issues are, where they come from, and how he/she can fix them?

Sorry, but I don't buy it. Like I have said before, 99% of the people out there have at least one issue. Most of those issues are why such a large portion of the population is so screwed up and dysfunctional. Hence the now 60%+ divorce rate. The rising of domestic violence. Child abuse, rape, etc.

Hazza, listen. I repsect you. You know your shit. But to say what I think your saying sounds so off the mark its unreal.

Again, if people could "cure" themselves, THEN WHY IN THE HELL DON'T THEY?

WHY DOES MY EXGIRLFREIND KEEP REPEATING HER PATTERN OF CHOOSING MEN THAT LIE TO HER, CHEAT ON HER, AND ABANDON HER? JESUS, HER THREE BOYFRIENDS BEFORE ME DID, I DID, AND MY BEST FRIEND JIM DID. SHE CRIED AND CRIED EACH AND EVERY SINGLE TIME AND HAS SHE LEARNED? OBVIOUSLY NOT. THE PAIN AT TIMES (FROM BEING ABANDON) HAS BEEN HORRIBLE. WHEN I DID IT TO HER, SHE WENT INTO A MAJOR DEPRESSION, LOST 20 LBS. WHICH ALMOST KILLED HER? DID SHE HAVE THIS REALIZATION YOU SPEAK OF? DID SHE SAY, OH, I KNOW WHY THIS IS HAPPENING. MY FATHER ABANONED OUR FAMILY WHEN I WAS 15 (WHICH HE DID), AND THATS WHY I AM ATTRACTED TO MEN THAT DO THE SAME. I AM REPEATING MY CHILDHOOD PATTERN OVER AND OVER. WHY? OH YEAH, ITS MY CODEPENDENCY? THAT COMES FROM NOT GETTING THE LOVE AND ATTENTION FROM MY PARENTS, SO I HAD TO LEARN HOW TO MANIPULATE AND CONTROL PEOPLE TO GET THE LOVE I WANT (MAJOR CODEPENDENCY TRAIT) SO NOW I DO IT WITH MY BOYFRIENDS.

MAN, I AM SURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRREE GLAD I HAD THAT REALIZATION. NOT!!!!!!!!! She is still doing the same shit over and over and over. Her and about 50 billion just like her.

In my year on this site you are the first that without any therpay or counseling or guidance has figured out her life and been able to change it.

That is awesome. You should set up shop!

I'm sorry hazza. But I strongly disagree with you. The numbers are DEFINITELY not in your favor!

Maybe I am misunderstanding what your saying. I don't think so, but maybe.

Broc

January 11, 2000
5:31 pm
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Ava
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Broc,
I am seeing a therapist right now. I told him about the codependency thing... he thinks its over diagnosed and prefers to work on the behaviors that are messing me up. Not just the dysfunction of codependency. He agreed that many of my behaviors were in fact similar to those of a codependent and that at times I may be more like a codependent than at others but all in all he wants to look at it through a series of behaviors rather than as a diagnosed problem. So I take that as okay. After all, the few books I have read so far do not fully describe me. I do have many of the characteristics of a codep. But what's funny is that my bf possesses those characteristics that I do not. Like you said "A match made in hell!"
Yes I am still w/ him... sort of. I was all happy to be living my life for me. Then he comes back in the picture (because I gave him the ultimatum to either treat me like a gf of 3 yrs, i.e. more serious, or just move on). Well he came back but again made it seem like I was the one who needed to change. So two boring days go by (which by the way is my fault because I "don't like to do ANYTHING!") and we're at it again. I wanted to cuddle spend time together... he wanted to watch a basketball game. Fine.. I watch the first half w/ him (which was all he wanted to see) and then am looking forward to my part of the deal... intimacy. Instead of having an adult relationship, he turns into this 5 year old who wants his mom to cuddle and tickle him or something. I get sick of the little boy game and just roll my eyes. Tell him I want a grown up relationship and to be serious and intimate sometimes. He throws his hands up tells me I will never stop Bitching and says he doesn't want the relationship. Just like that we're fighting again! I mean brawling. He lets me know that everyone that knows me thinks I'm a bitch (even the few friends I thought I had). Gets his arrogant grin, laughs, and tells me I brought all my unhappiness on myself. Even if that is true why does he have to let me know? He loves to let me know that his life is great if it wasn't for me bitching. He is going to be successful and just like always, I have served as the invisible springboard for everyone to step on my head and jump past me.
Is there any justice? Everyone already sees it like I am the worst person. Poor bf his gf is so screwed up! That is so mean. I am screwed up but why don't they see that he contributes so much to it? Why does he continue to hold all of my power? Even when I try to get it back, he turns something else against me... like I"M being distant, or controlling... when really all I'm trying to do is keep a little bit of dignity.
Sorry I'm ranting and raving... I'm just sick of him getting the better of me all the time and making me feel so awful about myself.

January 11, 2000
5:44 pm
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Anyone,
I know what my issues are... mom never showed love, kicked me out as teen, dad never around, then died, not allowed to see sister due to mom, abused as teen, cheated on by bf's, dated older men who could maybe take "control" of my life, etc. i know what the outcomes are... choose men who I can supposedly help (so that I feel needed and will hopefully not be abandoned or cast out like I was w/ my fam). End up helping them so much w/ their self-esteem and barriers that they end up not helping me (or I end up never helping myself) and they leave. Self fulfilling prophecy. Keep finding men that will use the one resource that I need to give myself so that I never have to give it to myself. Keep allowing others to define my own truth and put me down because then I am not at fault for doing it myself. All because I feel unworthy of the good life and love... dealt to me by my mom and her mom to her. I feel unloveable etc. because of how my bf have tried to convince me of their love then cheated on me. The fricken list goes on. I just want all of them to one day regret being such a-holes to me. I never hurt them. Even when others put them down I always picked them up and pushed them along. It's like I need to be the one who is, or appears to have it together so that I can help others. When someone else has it together it makes me feel like sh*t about myself and I avoid them. Unhealthy, sick of it, a mistake... me.

January 11, 2000
5:47 pm
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Ava,

Wow. Listen, you don't have to have all the characteristics of a codependent. My god, there are literally hundreds of them. This isn't one of those, ok, i have a,b,and c, but not d, so I'm not codependent. Nope, not the way it works. You have it, but again, it is very curable. Therpay, and most of all, WORK, WORK, and more WORK.

As for your counselor, I don't know. Maybe he didn't realize it, or maybe he wanted to wait...who knows. But if you were him, what would you say? Yeah, that web-site is right? No way. After all, didn't you say your impressions weren't very positive? You gut is alway right. Why not check out another one?

Anyway, you bf is too codependent. Its ironic you call him a five year old.....he is! You see, we all have what are called "ego states". There are several....our child state, critiical parent, etc. When we grow up in dysfuncitonal homes, we develop these states - however we never learn how to recognize them and/or how to control them. For example. His ranting and raving about you this and you that. Your a bitch, etc. Was that mature? No way. You see, that was the child in him. The child was "reacting" to the situation instead of "the adult". He never developed the ability to act as an adult in these types of situations. Theefore, when confronted with the situation, a confrontation, the child comes barreling out and boom, lets you have it.

I could go on and on, but thats the scoop.

Broc

January 11, 2000
6:03 pm
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AVA,

You are my female counterpart. In codepent circles its called the role of the caretaker. You alway do for others, usually in excess of whats needed or EVEN asked for. Right!? Yes, i know, it is me. Know what I figured out? That yes, one day all those people realize they are assholes and are sorry for what they did/do. After all, despite what you may or may not think, we are all human. They too bleed when cut. They too cry when hurt. Most of them are just in denial about it.

AFTER ALL, IT HURTS TOO MUCH TO FACE THE HURT. THAT IS WHY MOST PEOPLE STAY THE SAME - THEY NEVER EVER CHANGE BECAUSE ITS TOO PAINFUL.

Ironic isn't it. There whole miserable lives have been painful, and will contiue to be. Why? Becuase they refuse to face the pain, emabrace it, and conquer it.

There is a saying I have had on my computer since I started my jouryney.

"There is a great deal of pain in life, and perhaps the only pain that can be AVOIDED, is the paid that comes from trying to avoid the pain."

You are angry, and you partially have a right to be. But something I learned long ago about being a caretakeer is this.

As caretakers, we search out those that need taken care of. That is sick and unhelathy. We do so to give US a purpose......"If I can handle all YOUR woes,pains, problems, then I am worthy of your love..... you will never leave me because I take care of you" Sound familiar? The problem is that as codependents we go over and above the call of duty. We do things that that person is fully capable of doing for themselves. People resent this, and as such, don't act as appreciative as we think they should. We then in turn resent this...it makes us angry, which is what your displaying right now. Now don't get me wrong. You have been wronged. Just realize that part of the sickness of codependency is being a caretaker! You can be a teacher, but they have to do the work themselves!

Broc

January 11, 2000
6:07 pm
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First, Could Hazza be Molly?

Second, I re-read everything and still stick by my guns.

Hazza, again, the numbers are just not in your favor. If this can be done - realzing EXACTLY what our own issues are, where they come from, etc. then why is the world so messed up?

Futher, how many people do you know that know about codependency? How many know what exaclty control and manipulation is, let alone if they themselves have it? When was the last time you heard ANYONE admit they were codependent without first getting guidance on the subject?

You act as if a person can, I said earleier, awaken one day in the shower, figure it all out, and boom, their cured.

No way Jose'.

Broc

January 11, 2000
6:09 pm
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kitten
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Broc,

I think we all have the power to cure ourselves. It's part of our life's work. What might be a problem for you, isn't necessarily a problem for me. Some people don't want to be changed or grow. They are comfortable with their patterns...it's safe. Your ex might know there is something wrong with her actions, but is content to continue her pattern for whatever pay off she might get. We all have choices in life. I respect your choice and expect the same in return.

As for the "lady" comment...well it is a word directed towards us women. Last time I checked I was not a member of any royal house, at least not one that I am aware of. I am a woman. A tigress. I decide what I want to be called...one of the reasons I never took my husbands name. This is me--and MY life. By the way, I remember a day when people were called "Colored" or "Spic" or "Wap", just because it was common practice doesn't make it right.

I know you are a very passionate man, Broc, but sometimes it is good to let go of the control...to unwind. Or, as my therapist says--"go with the flow".

Peace.

January 12, 2000
9:33 am
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Hey Broc!!!!!!!
Ok, where to start?
Firstly i too took slight umbrance at the lady term but i knew it was unlikely that you meant to sound patronising so to hell with that!

Okay, i hear exactly what you are saying and mostly agree with you. we do not wake up one day with all the answers, that was not what i was saying.

I felt that you were saying that 100 per cent NO_ONE can solve their issue or get diagnosis without therapy.
It was the way you were so black and white on that issue that i disagreed with. I just wanted to say to you that there is that 1per cent(abitary figure) who CAN.

Most people as you say go to a therapist when they fell something is wrong but don't know why. I felt something was wrong and i didn't know why, all im saying is that i reserched my symptoms, read up on psychology and applied the same rules that a therapist would on myself, i also talked to people here and the combination, i beleive, led me to understand and progress as much as i could have with therapy. i state again, if i had any money i WOULD have therapy, this is not me saying therapy is a waste of time, i didn't have that luxury, i had to do it myself. All im saying is it is possible, rare yes but possible. I only wanted you to know that. YOu are right most people don't know where to start, but you can research these things like anything else.

Also, i would like to say that i have alot of respect for you and the work you do on this site, it is for this reason that oi was angry at you showing " all or nothing " thinking, which is ironically a sign of co-dep!!(isn't everything?)

Now we british are known for our modesty! but i will say to you her and now that i know my strenghths and weaknesses! I am a bad driver, i am overly nervous and quite neurotic in many ways but my instincts on people is very good. I can tell what people are like on the inside very quickly this was why i was asked to become managing director of a software company when i was 24 when the owner retired, a job i turned down again because i knew the staff personalities there wopuld cause the companies downfall, which did happen. I can apply that same ability to myself, with practice, it is just something i am good at. i just try to be objective, i have very similar issue to ava, actually.

I have many problems with things that others find easy, but instinct has been a great gift to me, most of my bad situations have come not from not having the right instincts about people, but ignoring those instincts.

People like your ex gf, have not gone to therapy because they have not yet said to themselves "something is wrong here "

We have all come to that stage here. yes?
Well once we get to that stage we all try to find out "what" is wrong.
Most people use a therapist as a tool to find that, you are absolutely right.

ALL IM SAYING IS THAT IS NOT THE ONLY WAY!!!!!!

I had to find out myself because NO-ONE would help me, if i didn't get my cheque book out!

The minority case that you imply ,i don't think is about who realises WHAT is wrong with them. The minority are people who who realise SOMETHING is wrong, this is why the world is full of the horrors you described.

So i am not saying everyone has the power to see what is wrong and fix themselves, i only wish everyone would see that something is wrong and go look for the answers weather alone or with a therapist.

If people could cure themselves then why don't they?

Your words.
They don't cure themselves not because they can't. But because they don't even realise that they need to look inside themselves to begin with. THEY SEE NO PROBLEM, THEY GO AROUND UNHAPPY AND DON'T KNOW WHY, DON'T EVEN WONDER. ITS AMAZING REALLY.

when people question themselves, they can start to find the answers, quickly with the right therapy, but they don't have to have therapy to suceed, SOMETIMES there are other ways.

PEOPLE ONLY HAVE TO ASK THE INTIAL QUESTION ABOUT THEOR LIVES, whether that takes them into the therapists office with a list of questions are to the local library, depends on the persons own abilities and back balance!

I hope you don't still see me as way of the mark and understand what im saying, because i do agree with you in essence i just don't agree with the way you say ALL people MUST have THERAPY to find the answers.
Peace
Hazza

January 12, 2000
9:41 am
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hazza
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oh also. i am not |Molly!
I think many more people understand about co-dep that ever before but still, not many.
You find the terms out when reserching the symptoms. I looked at everything that what wrong in my life, looked at my past, my behaviour, and recognised patterns that i saw when reading up about different psychological conditions.

For example, i can tell you that i am not anorexic, alchoholic, bpd, ocd, etc because i checked that too!!!

I just found that when i discovered co-dep, i saw myself, but i didn't need a therapist to tell me.

January 12, 2000
10:29 am
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ABOVE ALL, I WAS NOT SAYING EVERYONE CAN CURE THEMSELVES.

I SAY THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVE PROBLEMS BECAUSE THEY DON'T EVEN LOOK TO THEMSELVES FOR ANSWERS, THEY DON'T QUESTION THEIR LIVES.

WHEN SOMEONE QUESTIONS THEIR LIFE, THAT IS THE FIRST STAP. THESE PEOPLE ARE THE MONORITY, THOSE WHO EVEN BEGIN TO QUESTION.

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT THING. PEOPLE START TO (POTENTIALLY)GET BETTER OR FIND A "CURE" ONLY IF THEY QUESTION.

THIS IS THE ESSENTIAL STEP, FOR PEOPLE TO ASK THEMSELVES THAT QUESTION THAT TAKES THEM TO THERAPY IN THE FIRST PLACE. THIS IS THE START,BROC, NOT THERAPY ITSELF.

QUESTION LIFE----RESEARCH YOURSELF(ALONEOR WITH THERAPY)------WORK ON SELF (CHANGING DYSFUNCTIONAL PATTERNS)-----SEE CHANGES IN LIFE, AS YOU LEARN AND GROW.

think of it as this, you decide you need to travel . You can go to the therapist, who can tell you where they think you should go and how they think you can get there. You may know where you want to go yourself, okay you may be wrong but so might the therapist, so you look for the directions yourself. Either way is not 100 percent reliable to take you to the right place the right way.
BUT UNLESS YOU SAY " HEY I NEED TO TRAVEL" YOU AIN'T GOING TO GO NOWHERE, NO HOW.

IT IS IMPOSTANT FOR THE PERSON TO KNOW FIRST THAT THE NEED TO MAKE A JOURNEY, where you go and how you get there no one can ever tell you acurately will cure you. They can only say, "well hey, this way worked for others like you"

Are you really saying no-one can do this for themselves

BROC, would a therapist need to see another therapist if they had found themselves a victim of abuse, or found themselves in a co-dep relationship? they may want to, but i bet they could self analyse pretty well! why not me? why not some of the others here?

THEY ARE ONLY HUMAN BEINGS!!!!

peace (along with our angry discussion!!)
Hazza

January 12, 2000
3:41 pm
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Broc,
Regardless of whether we can work through these things on our own or not. We don't exist in a vacuum. It's never on our own anyway. Different insightful people can in fact take on a partial role of therapist. I'm not against therapy but I also think some work can at least be started, approached whatever in the privacy of one's own mind. Besides, that's where the change happens anyway. You are all so funny arguing this point to the death! šŸ™‚ Whatever the Truth may be I'm just happy to have support from a variety of different angles and many different takes on my situation.
Thank you for relating to me in a very straightforward way. I tend to listen to what you consider "Facts" moreso than opinions and feelings. Even if something isn't really a fact the fact that you think it is works for me. I'll get there eventually. Wish I could find another counselor but with my insurance I can't. Anyway. Thank you. The little discussion going on here on this site reminds me of my bf and I so I think I"ll just quit reading the nonsense! šŸ™‚ Bunch of codeps and ex-codeps going at it... too crazy for me! Just kidding. You are a great support and help... thanks. Ava

January 12, 2000
5:01 pm
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ava, you are right, we've lost the plot a bit havent we!!
I concide and will let the debate drop, im like a dog with a bone when i feel something is inaccurate that is all!

Lets change the subject!
Hazza

January 13, 2000
12:00 pm
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eve
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Ok, let's change subjects: becca, you started this thread. Are you still reading? Would you say hello if you are?

January 18, 2000
6:05 pm
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I stumbled on this site about a month ago when I was trying to do some research on on-line pornography - and became quite fascinated. I have never participated in any communication such as this. The first time I viewed it was just before Christmas and then tonight. Fascinating stuff. At one point I felt that I might have a co-dependency problem but was emphatically advised by my therapist that this was not the case. After reading all the stuff tonight, it occurred to me that 95% of the population probably exhibits some co-dependency issues during their lifetime, but I don't believe that it is necessarily as serious as it has been outlined here. These cases obviously are very serious but when I see the word "dysfunctional" used so frequently, it tends to lose any real meaning. In fact, how many individuals or families are not dysfunctional. What is functional? Who is happy? How many people don't stay in lousy relationships longer than they should? It's all very relative and I believe the term co-dependent, like many others, is quite often used out of context and that is why therapists are reluctant to label patients in this regard.

Based on everything I've read, nearly every person or couple I know would be labelled co-dependent and it just becomes irrelevant like being "overweight".

I'm not taking this lightly and I really am interested in the self-awareness of the various individuals writing but it appears in some cases that "obsessive" about how they are feeling could be the problem. Like the on-line pornography bulletin boards, perhaps time spent in non-related areas - like physical activity or social events - would get people's minds off these problems to some degree.

I would like to know one thing - approximately how long do people stay involved in these sites (never know what to call them as I try to limit my use on the "net").

Anyway, just my two cents which I felt I had to add due to feeling like a peeping tom or tomesse.

January 18, 2000
7:42 pm
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Good thoughts. And I think you're right, labels are used far too frequently. I can't talk for the others but I've been coming here since last June, on and off, sometimes more , sometimes not much at all. You sort of get to know the people and wonder how they are doing.

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