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Should I stay or should I GO? Only Im to know?!
December 29, 1999
3:23 pm
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Angelwings
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Working with others who have experienced what you've been through can help break the denial and rebuild self esteem.

December 29, 1999
3:49 pm
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BROC
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Angelwings,

clap clap clap clap clap clap clap

Nutknocking? Love it! he he he he he

Yes, denial. Not me, not me. You you you. Yadda yadda yadda!

God, i am soooooooooooooooooooooooooo glad I'm outta that.

Forgot who told me above to say a prayer for Shannon. At that time, I wasn't ready. Now, I truley feel sorry for her. How confused, hurt, lonely to sleep with my best friend. And Jim, well, ........ They are sick, and the saddest part, they don't even know it. I feel for her more, suprisingly? I wish she would open her eyes. Remember my story I posted a few months ago. Well, Shannon went trough AT least three guys in a row, including Jim, and she is exactly where she was this time last year when WE ended. Crying in her soup, alone, hurt, confused, abandoned. Sad.

December 30, 1999
11:54 am
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Angelwings
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No it is not suprising that you actually feel for her more, because that is also what is happening with me.
I am opening up and becoming much more self loving and thus am able to truly love others, authentically, instead of "loving" to get something, I wasnt truly loving at all. I was really emotionally closed, although I thought I was the one who was the only emotionally available one.....its amazing.
Once you are able to project unconditional love, even to those who have hurt you deeply, you replace thoughts of hate and fear with feelings of joy and peace. Blessings....:):) wonderful isnt it:)

December 30, 1999
11:57 am
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Angelwings
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Broc, I also wanted to say that it is good to see that you and I am experiencing the transfer of our knowledge from the intellectual to the knowing heart, this is when it really takes and this is when we really start to feel good huh:) cool

December 31, 1999
12:56 pm
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Angelwings
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Happy Millenium! I know I will....

January 1, 2000
2:32 am
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Angelwings
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parteee...lol

January 2, 2000
12:28 pm
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Angelwings
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Well bye to you all. I have learned a great deal from this site, but fortunately feel I no longer need to be here. Life is great, and too short to dwell upon its lacks. Within your weaknesses are you greatest strengths people, find them. I have:):):):):)
Blessings

January 3, 2000
5:00 pm
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BROC
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A.W.-

I think I will stay awhile, and try to help. I know I sure needed help when I first came, and many helped me. So, I want to give back, at least for awhile.

Take care of you, you!

Broc

January 3, 2000
6:33 pm
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Thanks Broc,

and to everyone who offers their personal insights and feels open to share their true experiences.

It's more than a pleasure having everyone here.

We'll miss you Angelwings.

- SC

January 4, 2000
7:15 am
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hazza
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Bye Angelwings,thanks for everything

January 4, 2000
12:41 pm
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Becca, Rebate

are you still out there? How are things going for you?

Angelwings

Have a good flight out there!

January 5, 2000
6:21 pm
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Ava
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BROC
I just thought I would ask you for some help. You sound like you know what your talking about. Is it possible in your opinion to have all of the characteristics of a codependent person (listed above by Anglewings) and at the same time be the abusive one to your partner (also listed above).
I am the bad one in the relationship but I am the codependent one. Do these two go hand in hand? I am not the one always being directly hurt because I can see how I played a role in my guy's behavior. For instance, I hate how he is inconsiderate, doesn't want to spend much time w/ me, is so involved w/ the rest of his life. But I am also aware of how my clingy ways make this so. But although I understand it, it doesn't stop me from saying mean things to him (to hopefully get him to be sorry) or trying to stand up for my pathetic side of the story. I need help in understanding this. I am definetly beyond the idea of it all being him, and he's a jerk, etc. But I can't seem to make sense of the fact that it IS actually all me. That is so much crap to claim ya know? And don't I get any comfort in being who I am or must I completely disown me and hate myself? that isn't very conducive to healing and changing is it? HELP! Trying to figure out if I am completely at blame or does some of it have to do w/ a difference of needs and desires?

January 5, 2000
7:06 pm
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Ava,
Don't blame, neither of you are to blame, and both of you are codependent. Healthy people are not attracted to unhealthy people and vice versa.
You have made the first very wise step of trying to learn and to be open to what you find.

January 5, 2000
7:07 pm
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Angelwings,
May your wings of silk take you high above the tears into the skye.
God bless you.

January 5, 2000
7:16 pm
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BROC
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VRJ,

Hey you! Where "you" been?

Broc

January 5, 2000
7:24 pm
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BROC
I've been here, I even told you how to email me on one of the posts. You are slacking off!

January 5, 2000
7:56 pm
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Ava,

It has been my experience, BOTH with living the codependency nightmare AND couseling, and books, and seminars, and group, and, and, and, that I can tell you this. There are also many many others that will step in if I am wrong, and so far noone has done it yet. Don't be impressed. This stuff, once you learn it, is easy. Its not rocket science, but it is tricky and difficult at first. Be patient. It will come if you let it, AND above all, are willing to change. With that said, here we go.

Your question:

"Is it possible in your opinion to have all of the characteristics of a codependent person (listed above by Anglewings) and at the same time be the abusive one to your partner (also listed above)."

Yes. Codependency is a disease. It knows no boundries (sorry for the pun for those that see it) Rich, poor, black, white, gay, smart, successful, etc. You name the type of person, ANY type, and yes, they can be codependent. Abuse, neglect, sex addict, etc. Again, ANYONE can be codependent.

You went on to say:

"I am not the one always being directly hurt because I can see how I played a role in my guy's behavior. For instance, I hate how he is inconsiderate, doesn't want to spend much time w/ me, is so involved w/ the rest of his life. But I am also aware of how my clingy ways make this so."

Here is the MAIN thing with codependents. The #1 thing they want MORE than anything is intimacy with another person. Now, heres the kicker. The #1 fear of codependents, the one thing they will run from, hide, avoid like the plague is, drum roll please, INTIMACY. This is what you and yours are doing now.

The inconsideration on his part, lack of time with you, etc. is a crystal clear example of this. And I can go one step futher. I did what he is doing. Why? So I could keep whoever I was with at a distance. If I could do that, then there was no way in hell I could get hurt.

Now, I know what your thinking. Something like, but I WOULDN'T hurt him. HE KNOWS THAT! Well, he does, and he doesn't. Codependency is a result of dysfunctional behavior patterns - patterns we learned as children and have now carried into our adult lives, including our relationships. We didn't learn healthy love, intimacy, etc. We got things by control and manipulation. Want an example? You gave me the perfect one:

"But although I understand it, it doesn't stop me from saying mean things to him (to hopefully get him to be sorry) or trying to stand up for my pathetic side of the story."

The part in parenthesis. To get him to....... That my dear is plain and simple control. Doesn't make you a bad or mean person. Just what is known as unhealthy or dysfunctional behavior. Again, you "learned" this behavior from your primary care-givers. Good ole' Mom and Dad, and they learned it from theirs, and so on. You learned at a very young age how to "get" what you wanted.

For example. You wanted an ice cream cone. You asked mom, she said no. NO is not a childs favorite word! Comprende'? So, you asked dad. Of course dear, here ya' go. Or, as with your bf, acting a certain way to evoke a certain response (the response YOU want) from a particular person. Can you see this in yourself?

Now, without even meeting this guy, I can tell you what he is like to the detail. How? Well, it would take alot of explaining but suffice to say I can. Bottom line, he is your mirror. Think I'm full of it? Stop doing what you have always done, and do the opposite - which is what HE is doing. Acting uninterested in him, being busy, BEING UNPREDICTABLE. His tune will change real quick.

NOW, I am not a supporter of game playing. That is a form of controlling, and you will only end up flat on your ass if you try that. I tell you this only if you don't believe me, or rather don't agree with me. But, you can save yourself the time. It will happen. I know. Again, I lived it. My gf's did it to me too, eventually. You can only whip a dog so many times before it stops coming around. Then, you go looking for it. But in the end, its all a game. he will see that, or rather sense it, and it will all be over again.

Bottom line. Like VRJ said, "unhealthy attracts unhealthy". A year ago I would be right there with your bf. Wading in that big pile of shit you call a relationship. Miserable. Mean. Upsetting. YUCK! If I met someone like either of you know, I would run like hell.

Now, I am not saying this to be mean. Only to prove VRJ's point. You two are codependent which is very unhealthy. Again, for all the reasons I and others have mentioned. I say what I did to impress upon that you BOTH need to change. If you change, and he doens't, or visa versa, IT WILL NEVER EVER EVER WORK! YOU BOTH HAVE TO DO IT. Your dysfunctional and so is he. LIKE ATTRACTS LIKE. Unhealthy attracts unhealthy. That is a fact you can take to the back. And, here is another.

If nothing changes, nothing changes! That means YOU individually need to change, and HE individually needs to change.

How? Therapy is the ONLY way my dear. THE ONLY WAY. I have to wrap up for now, but let me leave you with this, and I will continue tomorrow if you want me too. You need to ask me. That is my boundry. (Well go over that later)

Your controlling, and manipulation, as well as his, are NOT the problem. They are only symptoms of the problem. There is something within EACH of you that is causing you to behave the way you do. We are not smart enough or knowledgable enough to know what this is, or even where to look. It could be many things in your past, or just one. ONLY A TRAINED PROFESSIONAL CAN FIND THIS. PICK A GOOD ONE! I BELIEVE THIS SITE CAN HELP YOU FIND ONE FOR YOU?!

Anyway, you fix the root of the problem, and you life will fall into place. Your life will improve like you never thought possible. Stay the way you are, or just reading a book or two on codepency will ONLY educate you on the sickness, not help you with the cure. That, again, is a fact.

Hope this helps.

Broc

January 6, 2000
4:53 pm
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Broc,
thank you. Yes I see my controlling, manipulating side and am almost always aware that I have done it immediately after I do. He too manipulates me by keeping me at a distance but insisting that he loves me dearly because he does not hurt me. He thinks because he does not directly hurt me that this equates to love. I don't see that. You can be not mean to everyone you meet and that doesn't mean you love them or that you are showing them love. You are just showing them lack of hate. How can he ever see that what he has been showing me is not love... or that there are more active ways of showing love, rather than passive ways. I have done the whole "I'm busy", keeping my life full of other things and he really likes it. Because then he can say, "well I never tried to stay away from you. I had things I had to do. You say I don't have time for you and look at your life now." And I say "See how awful that feels? " and he says "Honey, I can't change that I have responsibilities, it's just a part of life." Well no kidding. I understand responsibilities, I just don't like his emotional distance.
You are right that I can only attract unhealthy people now. But he sees himself as so perfect and "healthy" that everyone loves and adores him. So I know he will have no problem finding a healthy person. If that is so, why does he fricken help put me through this? If he is so healthy why hasn't he left me? Well when I say this to him he says "maybe you're right and I think I will get on with my life and start making myself happy." Well great now I just helped push him away even more. It's like he's looking desperately for a way out of this relationship but trying to make it my fault that its over. Where's the justice in that? I am so afraid to leave because he will be successful in everything he does because he believes in himself. I on the otherhand leave it feeling at fault, like a loser, like I lost someone really great, dysfunctional, unhealthy, etc. And I just go down hill even further.
I am seeing a psychologist right now. I've only had 2 sessions w/ him and he thinks that I am not wrong for wanting the time w/ my bf that I do. He doesn't seem to be helping me, but I haven't mentioned the co-dep thing to him. So far, he's believed all that I've told him and basically just let me continue w/o any help in changing. Gave me a book called "The Prophet" which is excellent but that doesn't help when it gets back to how my bf makes me feel. Like a fricken idiot, and like he's on top of the world and could care less whether I'm there w/ him or not. He doesn't have time for counseling, let alone time for me, so won't be doing any changing. But he has to be part of the problem. All of his ex's were either, in his words, "uninteresting, cheaters, or we just didn't like each other". But then he makes sure that I know there are plenty of other girls out there, and that nobody else has to constantly fight for there freedom. So there I go being the ONLY one who feels like this... yeah right, read the threads here! HELP. So are you saying I should read co-dep books or not. And does my psychologist sound good or should I look for someone who takes this damn tragedy a little more serious. Help if you can. Thank you. AVA

January 6, 2000
7:52 pm
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BROC
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AVA,

First, I am not a pychologist. I am just another soul putting it together just like you. HOWEVER, I have been in the trenchs. I have went to TWO therapists - not because one was better than the other, but because I wanted to check up on what they were telling me. I am a doubter, and will check, double check, etc. Obsessive compulsive - hee hee. Thats next on my list.

As a matter of fact, my #2 lady (#2 because she was the second one I started seeing, not because she is any less credible) She told me that a dicipal of Jesus, Thomas, was a doubter (hence the saying, your a doubting Thomas) Anyway, he too questioned everthing to the nth degree) Jesus pointed this out, and while it could be agrivating at times, Jesus told him, "but it means you must want to know the TRUTH...."

Thats me. I have lived it, read it, been to group about it, lectures, etc. My #1 therapist has been a pychologist for 28 years, married to the same man 25 years, taught at two major universities, and has published two books, one on codependency. The other has been married to the same man 23 years, lectured, and teaches workshops and class for 21 of those years. She has worked side by side with Pia Mellody, the #1 guru of Codependency in workshops thoughout the southwest. So, these woman know their shit, and they have both independently of one another told me the same things.

So, I will pass this knowledge on to you for free.

First, you bf is as unhealthy as you are, fact. He is codependent too! It makes me laugh, because I wonder if you and I have dated.... I am the spitting image of him. You see AVA, like I said before, it doesn't matter who you are. AGAIN. Who you are. Codependecy does not discriminate. He can, on the outside, be the nicest, most adorable man you have ever met. He can be smart, good looking, and appear to exude rivers of confidence. He can have it all, and never look back. But I don't give a shit if he can do all that and shit gold bricks.

HE IS CODEPENDENT. IF HE WEREN'T, YOU TWO WOULDN'T HAVE LASTED PAST THE FIRST DATE. THAT MY DEAR IS A FACT!

SECOND, IF HE DOESN'T GET SOME HELP, A BUTT LOAD, HE WILL NEVER EVER HAVE A HAPPY FULFILLING REALTIONSHIP WITH ANY WOMAN ON THE FACE OF THIS EARTH. FACT!

How do I know this? Because no matter how different YOU think humans are, or aren't, there is ONE universal fact we all share. GURANTEED. We are predictable. We will ALWAYS act the same no matter how hard we try not too. Sure, you can "change" for awhile, BUT if he doesn't do the work on himself via therapy, the old him will ALWAYS come back.

You see AVA, this is called repeating. We each have our own patterns of behavior. Most, like you and your bf are dysfuncitoal via your childhood as I discussed earlier. Now, you learned how to brush your teeth, wash your cloths, and wipe your ass. When is the last time you switched your hand when wiping. Its true. Why? Cause its habit. What most people, probably 99% don't realize is that habits are confined to personal hygiene, etc. How you behave to others, for example, is a result of your learned behaviors. You will always treat you mom the same way you have always treated her, or your dad, or brother, or co-worker. If you get fired for being late and lazy I promise you you will carry that bad habit into the next job and the next UNTIL you make HUGE CHANGES TO YOURSELF. Make sense?

Conversely, our behavor patterns dictate the people we choose as our bf's, gf's, lovers, etc. You know what I mean....."your type" of guy. Well, if you study pychology for any amount of time you will find there is alot of truth behind that saying. You do have your type. Its not coincidence.

You see, the majority of our behaviors are controlled by our sub-conscious. We act and react without even giving it a thought. Like screaming when your scared, or ducking a snowball when its headed at your head! Know what I mean? Well, that same sub-conscious "guides" you to your type of man. It will sift through all the various men you meet until you hit "Mr. Right", which I promise you without even meeting you has always turned out to be Mr. Wrong. Want to know why? No, its not because men are liars, cheaters, etc. (although most are).

THIS IS HUGE, so pay close attention to what I am telling you. Its not the men you meet, its AVA.

??????????????????????????????????????

Yes, the men most certainly were shitheads. But, the critical thing the majority misses when looking at this is that the individual, in this case you, CHOOSE that man. Sure, he was a shithead, BUT YOU CHOOSE HIM. That is the crux of this whole point I am making.

Now, remember, he is as unhealthy or more than you. That is a fact Jack. But now we are on the right path, for the first time in your life, right? HE WILL NEVER EVER EVER CHANGE UNLESS HE GETS TO WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW. NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALL YOU CAN DO IS DO FOR YOURSELF, AND AS TIME GOES ON, AND YOU LEARN, AND READ, AND LISTEN, YOU WILL ONE DAY UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TRYING TO GET ACROSS FOR YOU.

TAKE YOUR EYES OFF OF HIM AND ON TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERAPY, CODA MEETINGS, LECTUES, BOOKS, THIS SIGHT. LEARN ABOUT THIS SHIT SO YOU DON'T REPEAT IT. YES, REPEAT IT. I PROMISE YOU THAT YOU CAN GO OUT AND START DATING TOMORROW. YOU WILL GO THROUGH X AMOUNT OF MEN AND ONE DAY YOU WILL CHOOSE ONE. AND AFTER THE NEWNESS WEARS OFF, AND YOU STOP SCREWING EVERY 10 SEOCOND, AND REALITY KICKS IN, YOU WILL BE WITH THE SAME TYPE OF GUY AS YOUR CURRENT ONE. HE MAY TALK DIFFERENT, AND LOOK DIFFERENT, BUT HE WILL BE JUST AS ALOOF, AND SELFISH, AND SNEAKY AS YOUR CURRENT BOYFRIED. HE WILL BE, WITHOUT A DOUBT, "YOUR TYPE".

How do you change this? Therpay, books, this sight. Learn about why YOU DO WHAT YOU WILL DO, then and ONLY then can you CHANGE it, which will automatically change your pattern. Not with just the men you date, but like a miracle from God above, you WHOLE life will be so peaceful, and nice, and happy, you won't believe it could be so good.

Whew!

More tomorrow, but suffice to say is this: You sick, and so is he. You will never be truely happy with ANYONE, and I promise you this, UNLESS you figure out "YOU!!!!!" Until you do this, go stick you head in a hole cause it will only get worse, never better! Thats a fact.

Broc

PS - Your therpaist. Tell him about what you have learned here. Let me know what he says......

((((((hugs)))))))))))))))))))))

January 6, 2000
10:25 pm
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ava,

Broc is giving you some good feedback and advice...i apologize, but w/ my limited time, I'm not able to read everything above, so if I repeat something that was covered, please forgive me.

my tip: I see a lot of focus on 'his' behaviors? That's the biggest no no for codependents, and all people in general. It's the complete reverse, non-helpful, and distracting way to view this problem.

He is 'he', and what 'he' does, isn't supposed to hold as much meaning as it does for you.

Keep the focus, COMPLETELY on YOU...the only time we should hear about his behaviors, is when you look at your REACTIONS to his behaviors...and any meaning which is derived from his behavior-your reactions to those behaviors, needs to be about you. Enough talk about him...it's time for you. That's the 'key'. Hold onto it.

That's my tip...carry on.

- SC

January 7, 2000
6:42 pm
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Broc,
Told him last night that I will live my life and he will live his. That I have been pressuring him to make my life for me and that I am through doing this. That I will not be there for his every wish and will only live my life the best I can. Told him I am co-dependent. Apparantly he has read up on this since the last time I mentioned it to him and he said himself that he is codependent also! Normally I would focus on how together we can overcome all of this and then get depressed because I am more codependent than him, etc. So instead, I said, well if that's the case then you deal w/ it in your way, and I will deal w/ it in mine. We decided to stay together but I don't think he realizes that it will be different. And I don't particularly care. I am only going to focus on caring about myself and know that I will naturally be better to other people. I hope it isn't my place to encourage him to get help because he too has a problem... all of his gf have been the extra needy type... this is what he thrives on. Now I will not NEED him. I will only NEED myself. His attitude is that it has worked for him this far... his fam loves him, good friends, successful, etc. so why change? Good point. Let him be is what I say. I don't care. He is not such a big deal to me now that I am starting to realize what else I have in my life! Doesn't seem like it since that's all i've talked about so far hu?
I feel like I have a decent understanding of myself. I've studied psychology for four years. I'm not saying I'm brilliant but I have been working on myself for a long long time and I'm only 22. I'm insightful and am ready to make that HUGE change which is to start taking control of my own life. Something I never realized I needed to do before. Always thought it was simple depression, etc. But now I see where that depression stems from.
Yes in a sense I have chosen shitheads as you put it. But not many (3 bfs). I have settled for anyone that seemed to promise me security. I have never put my standards first (outside of must not cheat, be chauvenistic, or completely ignorant). So I am aware of my unhappiness w/ them from the very beginning. Duh! Now I don't care if I have someone or not. I need to get what I need from myself first, then just enjoy what others can add to my life. In the past I have chosen men that promise me (non-verbally) that they will be the one to fill my life for me (unrealistic expectation that I think I want but really don't). I end up believing them knowing that it's impossible and not even what I really want... but get pissed at them for not living up to what I don't really need or want. Bass Ackwards if you ask me!
Thanks for helping me see that I can change this all w/o believing that I'm so dysfunctional and the other involved is just peaches and cream. That resentment is really what kept me from facing up to this problem I've had. I will talk to my therapist about what has been said here. I went to the college lib. and got 7 books on codep and am avidly reading up on it. Helping a lot! I feel eager to go out and live my life. Things like laundry are even more enjoyable right now. I feel like I am on the verge of finding and accepting who i really am. Wish me luck and I'll keep you updated. Thank you so much once again. Ava

January 7, 2000
6:45 pm
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SC,
Thank you for reminding me what the Key is. Putting it in those words helps me remember that is will open my door! But by using the wrong key I will continue to be left out in the cold.
Never before have I been able to focus on myself. I have always allowed my happiness to revolve around others circumstances. The people on this site are amazingly helpful and thanks for having this site!
Ava

January 8, 2000
5:31 am
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Hey ava,
Just a thought for you here,
You say that your BF is or appears to be "peaches and cream"

Why do you think he has always chosen "needy" girlfriends. How do you think he judges himself?

By comparing himself to partners he chooses that have more "problems" than him, so he always seems like the "together" one in the relationship???

If you went out tommorrow and dated a man with serious drug/ drink/ dysfunctional problems of any kind, you too could then look at yourlife and say "hey, im not so fucked up as i thought am i?"

You partner is co-dep because he is choosing the type of person that he feels has more problems than himself just so that he doesn't need to look to himself and see his own issues.

As broc says we are all human and we have all done it, but please dont think you are in any way "worse" than him.

If he was really happy with himself why would he keep validating himself by telling you that his family/ friends etc think he is okay. He is judgeing himself by others (or his perception of others)thoughts about himself. THIS IS CO-DEP BIG TIME.

HEY BROC AM I RIGHT ABOUT THIS OR WHAT????????????????????????????????

You are doint the right thing by focusing on you. Keep going and keep strong.

good luck to you.

Incidently Broc, i can't afford a therapist, does this mean i am a damned forever? This is about the only thing i disagree with you on, i refuse to believe than i can't change, learn and grow on my own.
The gauntlet has been thrown, what do you say?

Hazza

January 8, 2000
4:42 pm
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True Hazza,
Good point about him choosing those that make him feel a little better. His whole family does that. They are so preoccupied w/ the problems of others and putting them down that they forget about their own and never face them.
Oh well. I am feeling good about myself and continuing to live for myself. Thank you for your support.
I have the same question for Broc. I can see from studying psychology and therapy that a therapist can be of great help for someone unable or unwilling to analyze their own patterns of behavior but I think much can be done on one's own with the help of others to support them (such as this site). My therapist (only 2 sessions so far) doesn't seem to be moving fast enough for me, and I feel like I have made some major steps through talking to people on this site more than I have w/ the ther. Maybe it is too early on in the sessions to see any real progress but I too don't have the cash to continue this for years. so I have to do my own research and self-healing. Let's hope that its possible to get through this. It has to be possible because there weren't always therapists right? There were people who were supportive but not necessarily therapists. Well thank you for writing. Ava

January 9, 2000
5:46 am
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eve
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Ava,

you sound so much better and stronger now. Keep going and congratulations to you for finding the right turning!

Hazza,

I think you are not being serious! Certainly you are not doomed forever! No, you sound like such a warm, caring, and insightful woman that I sincerely believe that you can make it on your own. It might be tougher than with a therapist, but you'll make it. Isn't that what you are doing all the time anyway?
Take care, eve

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