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Should I stay or should I GO? Only Im to know?!
December 22, 1999
11:31 am
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Becca
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Well this is my first time here and I thought I would try relieving some stress here about my situation because I think I've talked about it as much as I can to friends - and amazingly nobody has told me to shut up yet. ha! Anyways.. my situation is as follows.

Ive been with the same guy for 2 years next week and we've had a LOT of ups and downs. He's 23 im turning 28 and I think that our problems lie in the fact that he's young and isnt ready to be a MAN in a relationship. We used to argue incessantly about different things. He's moved in and out from living with me 3 times and this last time is where I decided to put my foot down and not let him move back in.
This moving out is mutual - and he's telling me that he just needs his space, that he loves me, wants to be with me - but since we have so much going on in our lives that he wants to pay off his debt, have his freedom and still be with me. A month ago he'd be telling me about how the only reason he wants to move out is to teach himself responsibility - because he'd hardly ever clean up after himself - leaving me all the work to do - thats a thing we'd fight about - and I would be at my wits end. He's frequently blows money to the point that I virtually have to support him in order for him to eat!

Well, he lies to me about simple things and we argue about it. This last arguement was over the fact that he spent money on something and lied about doing it. He says that because I knew the truth and still asked him questions, that I was setting him up and doesnt want to be with someone that "Everytime they think he's lying" that they set him up"

Forive me here, but I have 2 years of fustration built up here.

To me, he's VERY inconsiderate at times and to me seems quite selfish. One time when I was sick he wouldnt stick around to take care of me...in fact hands me 10.00 and says if Im hungry - to order a pizza. He's apologized for this and has admitted to me that he hasnt always been there for me.

he's not a BAD person - he is quite loving at times and im just SO upset about how inconsiderate he is. We've talked about this
till Im blue in the face - but it doesnt change. I dont feel as if I get the dedication out of this relationship that I should be getting. I stick this out because I feel that other couples have made it through SO much worse than this. While he's living at his parents he's asked me to wait for him to get things straight but I feel that after being with him for 2 years that we should be working on this stuff together and not separate. "couples" dont work on goals separately do they? I mean isnt it supposed to be that you work on them together to build up to something? I can understand him wanting his space -but he said he was moving out into his own place and then decides to stay with his parents? He contradicts himself in many areas and it drives me crazy. I dont know whether I should wait. Ive been plenty patient with him and I dont feel that he's gonna learn anything if I let him do this.
But I dont want to lose this relationship. He says he "Thinks" he's in love with me.
We've talked about counseling and thats a good idea - except that I dont know if we can afford it. He says he's willing to go and I really think we need it. I think that both of us would like to see this work, but we dont know how to go about it. Communication is horrible sometimes between us and it takes a tragedy of breaking up and being emotional before we get down to how we feel. It shouldnt GET that far. ok ill quit typing so I can wait for a response. lol

HELP!!!

December 22, 1999
12:03 pm
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Angelwings
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sounds like you are up to what I was, hooking up with an irresponsible, unavailable man. This is codependent behavior. It creates chaos and drama in your life. YOu always trying to get him to be responsible, affectioinate and attentive and him pulling away.
This is the typical clinger/pursuer syndrome. It is great when we need to avoid THE REAL WORK which is US>
You need to take him up on his plans and take this time to develop yourself as a woman and person.
Delve down deep and try to understand why it is important for you to take on the caretaking of these types of guys who are basically dead end situations, unless they are mature enough and wise enough to see the toxic dance they play with you.
It is true, that he does need to work on himself and become responsible and mature, but moving back with his parents is the same as depending upon you.
YOu both need to find yourselves.
Prayer is also very helpful and DOES work to stop the bickering and create peace and space for you to find yourself. YOu may be shocked to feel all the suppressed desires and emotions rising within you at this time as you seperate from him and no longer have someone to control and be angry with.
Stick with it, it will be tempting to get him back with you to avoid the real work within you, but dont.
Blessings

December 22, 1999
12:06 pm
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Angelwings
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sorry, mistake, that was meant to be the "pursuer/distancer syndrome..whoops

December 22, 1999
1:55 pm
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Becca
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Well am I Being co dependant ? or HIM? LOL. Im sure that he loves me, in his own way. He's young and confused and has a lot of growing up to do. I know what I want, but getting it is difficult.

Im just taking things in stride. If I find myself doing my own thing - so be it. If I want to be with someone else? so be it. But Im not calling him and trying to make plans with him. I am working within myself on having my own life and although I would LIKE it to include him - ive been through worse.

The thing is getting past the being upset because he didnt call or he didnt do something very considerate or nice. THATS the hard part for me. And I find it hard to forgive him and move on when he and I are still together. (?)

Love to you all 🙂

Merry Xmas <3

December 22, 1999
3:22 pm
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Angelwings
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yes you are codependent and so is he. You are wishing and hoping he will change, and perhaps you are doing things to help bring that about, thinking it will finally bring you happiness but it wont. The happiness and peace lies within you. You obviously have a history/pattern of poor relationships when you state "ive been through worse" if this relationship is better, then YOU are better.
You say "getting it is difficult" well that is because you can not get blood from a stone, but you can find what you want within yourself first and then your life will fall into place.
I have come through years of personal growth to be able to advise you in this way, what I am saying may go over your head, it is hard to get intellectually because you are at a stage where you are looking outside of yourself for power and authentic love. This happens often with those of us who did not develop properly as children ( boundaries, personality development self esteem. etc ) You may have come from a family where you were pursuing love and attention as you are now and not getting it and you were probably loaded down with responsibility as a child, having to grow up fast, parent your mom etc...
You also probably feel deep loneliness when you are a lone and can not stand to be alone........this is the self that needs building.
blessings

December 22, 1999
3:25 pm
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rebate
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Becca,

If you are doing things on your own and not sitting there waiting on his every move, you are definately NOT codependant.

Codependant is a word that people throw around a great deal now, but according to my Therapist the true Codependant relationship is fairly rare. Sounds like he is just a little immature for you right now. He might grow up to meet you, or you may grow a little further away.

Anyhow, You sound like you really have things pretty well together. Hang in there. If he doesn't work out to be what you want, someone else will.

Happy Holidays.

December 23, 1999
2:13 pm
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Becca
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Well there is new news.

Lastnight he came over and as usual told me that he cared about me but doesnt want the relationship. I told him all about himself - that the way he's treated me is unacceptable and that I took more garbage from him then a lot of women would. I told him that I wouldnt allow myself to be treated this way anymore. He told me that he never asked me back- that ive always asked him back (Which isnt absolutely true) because he's taken liberty to take the key outta my house and acted as if he wanted back. He says that he's sorry for mistreating me and regrets coming and going all the time.

All my friends told me to dump him a long time ago - but I didnt listen. I made sure to tell him he wasnt going to find someone better then myself - maybe someone more "Suited" to him, but never better. I wished him happiness, and no harm but that someday that he might regret this - And hopefully he will. (not that i'd take him back at that point)
I made sure to tell him everything I felt and it really annoyed me when he said he wanted to take time for himself. Well you guys? He's been taking time for himself for a LONG time. I told him that as well. I told him a lot of things - how I felt and what was on my mind at the time.

I told him that In the future I know that I gave it everything that I had and thats how I know I can face this and not look back (once all the pain is through). I said "I gave it one helluva try, can you say the same?" he said "no."

So he wasnt giving me what I deserved in return. He might be a good person as a friend but he's an emotional weight. So I let him know that this year that I didnt want his Xmas gifts because the thing I got is my freedom. His last words to me were "Now that I feel like a jerk, I know where the door is and ill show myself to it" I made sure he took everything that was his - with him because, "I didnt want an excuse to see him ever again" - He wants a friendship...can you believe that? Thats odd - because he didnt know how to treat me like a friend when we had a relationship - so I dont have much faith that he'll know how to treat me now as a friend..Who wants a liar? who wants a deceitful person in their life? I find out he's been trying to contact an old girlfriend whose almost 2x his age w/3 kids and the oldest only 2 years younger then himself. Sorry for saying this on the board...but

He can go to hell. When he's older he's gonna see what he did and look back. And when im older?
I'll hopefully have forgotten his name.

As soon as I can quit crying ill be fine. ha!

Angelwings - I am NOT codependant. I was fine on my own for years. I met him and wanted to leave him because i was scared and he made make a promise that I wouldnt run on him. I kept my promise to love him and be there for him. He just couldnt do the same. I haven't any children and I grew up in a loving home - although we never really all got along for long periods of time - we still stick together. Yes, currently I do feel deep lonliness because Im a good person that should have someone to be happy with. I deserve better then this....
Yes, i have had a lot of responsibility from my childhood on up. I have worked 2 jobs while going to school full time. I have a life to make for myself you know ? 🙂 And since he wants to relive his high school years (Because he's been *Missing* them) He will *never* progress.- However, I have and want a husband and children.

ATTN Rebate.

Thank you 🙂 I do not sit around on him anymore and wait for his decision. I just thought he needed patience and understanding.. He doesnt need either..he needs a good kick in the butt that his mom never seems to do. She's passive and sweet and lets her children talk to her like she's nothing. My x's words were always " I dont wanna be like my brother, 26 still living with mom and dad" Well his latest decision is to live with his parents for awhile - so he *will* turn out like his brother... .pathetic, talks to people terribly and lives with mom and dad because he's too lazy to get a real job. I may *hate* what he's doing to me, but in essence he's doing me a favor.

This week he's muslim - next week who knows!? he's always changing his mind. However, Common courtesy is something he should have NEVER forgotten..

GOD bless you guys! <3 keep in touch

December 26, 1999
7:52 pm
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Angelwings
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Well, I have lived on my own for long periods of time and was quite codependent. YOu may not fully understand the term Codependent as neither may others here. Many codependent women are fully independent financially and can be well educated ( as I am )
They can also live without a man for long periods of time, but when they are with a man they exhibit codependent tendencies. For full details on codependency read anything by Melodie Beattie.
I have a first hand knowledge of its characteristics although I no longer define myself by them
It sounds as if you made a good choice in respects to your former partner.
Into the new millenium, creating your own happiness.
Blessings

December 26, 1999
8:48 pm
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sunonrun
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Becca you know what the answer is. the song goes bye bye baby bye bye got a lead foot on my accelerator and the rear view mirror torn cause ain't never lookin back and you can count on that. remember remember remember you get what you settle for. good luck

December 27, 1999
9:36 am
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rebate
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Becca,

Congratulations!!! You sound like a very strong person. You seem to know what you want and what does not meet your needs. That is fantastic!

Angelwings: You can't be "codependant" and "independant" at the same time. Becca seems to be very independant. Just because you are in a relationship with the wrong man and you are lonely when that relationship ends does not make you codependant. The fact that a person recognizes the lacking in the relationship and decides to end it proves this.

Usually people who label themselves as codependant are really Depressed. Therapy does wonders for this. But you have to want the change. Becca has made the decision for change and followed through with the actions.

Good Luck Becca. Great job!!

December 27, 1999
12:26 pm
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BROC
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Interesting debate.

Rebate......How old are you? How long have you been in therapy? Why are you in therapy? What do you KNOW about codependence, without going to your therapist? What other knowledge do YOU have?

You see, I have been in therapy for almost a year know. I once lived a dysfunctional life. Control, manipulation, deception. I needed to change. I, as with everything else, REALLY investigate every angle. I have seen up to two therpaist. Why? To see if I was getting the whole story. Both therapists have close to 50 years clinical experinece. Both have been married to the same husbands their whole life. Both have taught, lectured, and published. One of them has even worked with Pia Mellody.......guru of codependency at the Meadows.... a world renowned instiute for addictions. I have read close to 40 books on codependency, love addiction, etc. You name it, I have read it, including hundreds of hours on the internet. And, this sight.

My conclusion, well, I am going with Angelwings on this one. Not to offend you are Becca, but you both sound VERY new to this domain. I would be willing to bet if you were both honest you have no idea of what codependency truly is. And no, codependent relaionships are NOT rare. They are the rule, not the exception. And, you can always give your threpaist this address.....I would LOVE to hear what he/she has to say that disputes everything I listed above. Again, I love to see it from ALL angles.

Rebate, becca, once you do some real investigating on this subject you will find that nearly everyone is codependent. Codependency, at healthy levels, is necessary in EVERY relaionship. However, interdependence is the key. A little codep., and a ton of interd. Thats the key to a healthy long lasting relationships. No other way. There is no magical "other" guy out there for either of you. Its you that is the key. There is a reason netiher of you has found "the one". Sure, its the jerks you find. BUT IT IS YOU THAT PICKED THEM!!!! YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU! Read the book, Woman who love too much! It will tell you why men and woman BOTH unconscioulsy choose the same type of man/woman in their rel. We all have our "patterns". You will repeat them over and over until YOU change them. I will bet you both $100 that without any therapy to change these patterns you will both be sitting in the same boat this time next year. Its just one of the facts of life.... that is unless you find what is wrong with you and fix it. Then and only then will you be able to make the right choices.

There is a reason you are where you are now. Becca, you dated that irresponsible guy for two years, RIGHT? Well, yes, he appears to be what you say. BUT, you did put up with it for two years! You, and onone else. What is it about YOU that couldn't walk away sooner?

You see ladies, I have read these threads for almost a year now. Hundreds of people, just like you and me. And the commonality? They all start of saying, "I'm not codependent....yadda yadda yadda, then they read, learn, and find that they are. It is only then, like the alcoholic admitting HIS addiction, can you heal and be successful in your future relaitonships.

And by the way. As with Becca, I didn't pine away waiting for the woman to get their shit together in my relationships. I left them and didn't give it ONE seconds thought. I am EXTREMELY independent. I have lived on my own since I was 19, I make well over $200K per year, and a memember of several civic organiztions, but still am codependent. Woman were my drug of choice, men are yours. The sooner you accept that fact, and really look in the mirror, the better off you will be.

Of course this is my opinion, but an opinion that is supported with everything I have listed above. Now Rebate and Becca, what do you know, and what are you using to support your claims?

December 27, 1999
2:48 pm
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rebate
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Broc,

How old are you? And why are you in Therapy?

If your Therapist told you all relationships are codependant, Then the Therapist needs help.

I have always been very independant. I didn't marry until I was 30, I run my own business as well as manage a large Construction office. I went into Therapy because I was sexually abused as a child and I needed to resolve the depressing, and painful issues left from it.

My therapist is a published author, Teaches a College
course, and is connected to two of the best hospitals in the area. I have done a great deal of research and my conclusions have been that anyone can write anything and make a lot of people believe it.

My Therapist and I have done wonderful work. I have made tremendous strides. My personal life has improved unbelievably, as well as my professional life.

I came to this site originaly because I was seeking a little comfort. However, I seem to have progressed beyond that need. So, if you choose to accept that you and everyone around you is "Codependant", enjoy.
I have a life and with the help of a competent Therapist I am moving on with it. I believe Becca is doing the same thing.

By the way, how much money you make has nothing to do with dependance or codependance. And changing girlfriends every week doesn't either.

More to the point, GREAT JOB BECCA!!!!! YOU ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK.

December 27, 1999
4:58 pm
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Angelwings
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Broc, as usual you are eloquent and impressive. You expend the selfless energy needed to teach and really educate many uneducated people on this very real and destructive issue of codependency and the various levels within our relationships and society. You are a bright spark and a tenacious man, who will find nothing but success with your keen mind and your will to heal. God bless
You are also healing yourself as you help others, but always remember to keep yourself number one friend, blessings....:):)

December 27, 1999
5:02 pm
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Angelwings
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The money Broc makes, the obvious independence within his every day dealings that have brought him to a level of financial and material success was something that he obviously needed to express in rebuttal to your claim that "codependents are not independent"
Becca, you have a good source of wisdom here, perhaps you should weigh all responses before deciding whether you are or are not codependent.
I also left the relationships, as I decided to grow, but during them, I remained in a state of emotional conflict, pain and drain. Awareness and knowledge is important when one wants to heal, gotta name it to claim it, then heal it........

December 27, 1999
5:05 pm
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Angelwings
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Broc, how are you anyway? Long time no hear.
You sound good, you are a great guy, dont forget it:)
Hope you had a great xmas.Blessings

December 27, 1999
5:41 pm
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BROC
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Rebate,

Whatever you say my dear................. Seems I hit a chord with you. Apoligies. Yes, I don't give a flying shit either, to be honest. Again, if you would take the time to actually "read" what I wrote, I said all rel. to SOME degree are codependent.

Your issues have nothing to do with this subject. They deal with abuse, right? So, why would you have intimiate knowledge of what codependency is, where it comes from, etc. Lets be honest. You probably know as much about codependency than I do about sexual abuse, where it comes from, why, etc.

You need to really be careful what you say unless you know what you speak of. Many people come here for an ear, many for advice. When you get on your soapbox and make a statement "your NOT codependent", you need to make sure you explain why you think so. You did not. And I know that that can cause people out there alot of confusion.

As I stated before, I have spent alomost a year on this subject. Books, seminars, lecture by some of the greatest minds on this subject. So, that is why I can say and do say what I say. Make sense?

You won't see me post on every thread. Mainly because I am unfamiliar with the topics. Sure I know a little, but not enough to be precise and sure of my answer.

So, if your counselor says this, then to her and you it is so. I was simply telling you that after hundreds of hours of investigation, dozens of seminars, group sessions, more books than I can remember.....that your claim/your therapists claim is completely the opposite of ANYTHING i have ever heard, read, or studied. But I guess anything is possible. I mean, I guess its possible that my two counselors are wrong. That Pia Mellody is wrong. That mellanie beattie is wrong, as well as at least 20 other authors. Isn't it possible?

December 27, 1999
5:51 pm
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BROC
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AW-

I am fine. I read too you were back and doing well....tears. I like the new name. I did the same awile back. Seemed fitting. I did transform. Anyway.......

I am still battling the codepdency thing. Although now with Rebates input it seems that I am a rarity, a fluke, a freak of nature. Something new to mull over....not! hee hee

It is amazing to me I guess. But, I guess we are fortunate to have her here. I mean its not everyday you find an individual that knows everything about everything and didn't have to get a degree for it. Me, I still have to pay for the education. Life goes on.

How are you doing?

B-

December 27, 1999
6:15 pm
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BROC
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Becca,

Hey, listen. I heard a saying once. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one, and most of them stink. So, what to do? That is the age old question. But as I mentioned earlier to you, the best path to take is the one less traveled. Heard that before? Think about it. Imagine the life you have lived up to this point as a road. Any road. Picture it in your head. Now, along this road are all your lifes experiences, including the significant others in your life. Now, where has that road led you to in that regard? Shittsville? Aaaaahhhhhh, yes it has, because if it hadn't, you wouldn't be here telling us it had. So, using a little bit of that old fashioned logic, you will eventually come to the conclusion that what your doing, and how your doing it, doesn't work. Don't worry. For MOST, it does not. So, using a little logic again, you will, hopefully, come to the conclusion that you need to change something. Right? If it doesn't work, you need to change it. Pretty simple shit. And most people, even the severely dysfunctional ones get to this point.

BUT, THIS IS WHERE MOST FAIL THE TEST? MOST WILL CHANGE THEIR EXTERNAL ENVIORNMENT. THEIR JOBS, CAR, HOME, .......BOYFRIEND,HUSBAND, SPOUSE, MATE, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL HIM/HER.

How many times have you said, "You know, I just keep getting the idiots, jerks, assholes......" Your a jerk magnet. You know what I mean. Its what WE ALL say. Shes a bitch. Hes an asshole. I will choose better next time. I will watch out for guys like him. etc. But guess what? No matter what you do. no matter hard freaking hard you try, you will end up with a guy VERY similar if not identical to the last. Why? Because you are human. That is a fact, I don't give a shit was ANYONE says. That is undisputed. Second undisputed fact, we are creatures of habit. Third undisputed fact, habits NEVER change unless WE, US, OURSELVES CHANGE THEM. Fourth......habits include but are not limited to who we choose in potential mates..."Your type". Not just looks! Not just personality! But the "real" guy. Maybe a new face, different hair color, whatever, but you pluck off the new shiney feathers you will have, without a doubt, the SAME TURKEY! Why? IT IS YOUR INDIVIDUAL DISTICNT, ONE AND ONLY BECCA SUPREME PATTERN. WHY? CAUSE YOUR F-CKING HUMAN AND IT WON'T CHANGE AND AND AND AND AND IN THE END YOU WILL END UP AT SHITTVILLE, POP. YOU UNTIL YOU GET SOME HELP. A THEPRAIST IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO CAN TELL YOU, BECCA, WHY YOU CHOOSE THE MEN YOU DO. THE ONLY PERSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FACT! I PROMISE YOU THAT IF YOU WILL JUST GO AND JUST MENTION SOME OF WHAT I PROCLAIM TO BE TRUE, THAT THERPAIST WILL TELL YOU I AM RIGHT.

IT IS IN YOU! SURE THESE GUYS ARE ASSHOLES. THEY ARE 50% RESPONSIBLE. YOUR THE OTHER 50%. I CAN TELL YOU THOUGH THAT YOU FIX YOUR 50%, AND YOU WILL ATTRACT A NEW BREED OF MAN. ONE THAT IS HEALTHY, MORE WELL ADJUSTED, CARING, AND ONE WHO BELIEVES THAT REL. ARE A TWO WAY STREET!

THIS SHIT IS EASY ONCE YOU GET THE HANG OF IT. WE ARE ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL ALL IN SOME WAY WHAT IS CALLED THE WALKING WOUNDED. SOME A LITTLE, SOME A WHOLE BUNCH. YOU DON'T FIX THOSE WOUNDS, AND YOU WILL REPEAT THOSE MISERABLE PATTERNS I AM TALKING ABOUT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. FACT!!!! YOU DIDN'T AHVE TO BE NEGLECTED OR ABUSED. THERE ARE HUDREDS OF REASONS WHY? I WOULD BE WILLING TO BET YOUR DAD WAS AN ALCOHOLIC, MAYBE MOM. SOMEWHERE YOU LEARNED THE ROLE OF THE CARETAKER. TAKING CARE OF SOMEONE. AND ONE MORE THING. YOU STATED YOU DIDN'T LIKE TAKING HIS SHIT. YOUR BETTER OFF, ETC. THAT IS THE CLASSIC DEFINITION OF CODEPENDENCY. TAKING CARE OF SOMEONE DAY AFTER DAY, PUTTING UP WITH THEIR SHIT, AND IN THE END RESENTING THEM FOR IT. I DID IT WITH ALL MY GIRLFRIENDS. ON THE GRAND SCALE OF THINGS ITS NOT ALL THAT BAD. WE ARE CARING, BUT TO THE POINT TO WHERE ITS NOT DESERVED.

HOPE THIS HELPS. I WISH YOU ALL THE BEST!

BROC

December 28, 1999
1:11 pm
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eve
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Broc, rebate, all.

I just found a story in the net that reminded me of your discussion here. I think you will propably agree, that you are discussing a complex problem (Can anything be even more complex than humans and their relationships?). Here comes a translation of this story (I hope it still makes sens to you).

Komplexity (or - three blind men and the elephant)

Three blind people describe an elephant. None of them could see the whole elephant, because they were born blind, But they had the opportunity to learn about an elephant through close contact and they can now give their opinions about elephants, to the best of their knowledge.
The first one says: Elephants are like snakes, only their breath is stromger (he had contact with the trunk)
The second says: Elephants are like a big rug (he had contact to the large ear)
The third says: Elephants are like moving pillars (he had contact to an elephant’s leg)
They start a big discussion about who is right, because nobody can accept the opinion of the others, and they can’t even understand how the others could come to their conclusions. And everybody is sure he is right, because they experienced it with their own hands.
This story shows a basic pattern of complex situations: Because everybody can only see or understand a part of the problem, opinions can be different - and yet every opinion is correct for the area it covers. This peculiarity of complexity is unsettling. But there is also comfort in it: As long as we only see parts of a larger system there is no such thing as a single truth. We have to live with conflicting evidence. OR (and I like this better): we can accept inconsistencies and have it right at the same time.
(end of story)

I think that all of you are exactly right, and anybody who feels comfortable with the situation he/she is now in, should not be talked into finding a problem where he/she doesn't see one. But keep your eyes and ears open for more experiences. Anything that works is fine, anything that doesn't: we can improve it!
Eve

December 28, 1999
1:36 pm
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Cici
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Hey all...

eve! What a nice, calm center you are in a maelstrom of conflict. God bless us, every one!!!! ha ha. The following is posted somewhere else on this site. Please forgive my lazy fingers.

Does anyone really know the meaning of the codependency? It really isn't a word at all. It was created, by psychologists. Psychology (although I'm studying the field) is a very strange area of study. It hasn't really been regulated by any state or national boards...in Washington you can become a therapist if you take a test and pay $50. So? So there's no way of saying this author is more right than that author. Even psychological theorists don't agree. Behaviorists will say this caused your problem, Cognitive psych's will say that's you're problem. Humanist existentialists will say both of the others are wrong and you're just experiencing angst at the thought of dying!

What does this have to do with the debate? Weeeelll...I'm just saying if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think everyone has the traits described by codep, to some extent. And yet some people are able to have meaningful relationships that are fulfilling and wonderful, including conflicts and arguments. It's about personal choice, isn't it?

I don't know. I don't claim to be the guru of personal fulfillment. God knows I am flawed, I have made mistakes, bad things have happened in my life. I've seen a man profoundly disturbed by memories of death all around him with PTSD have a dysfunctional yet functional relatinoship. My dad says it's not about being psychologically healthy. It's about finding someone with compatible dysfuntions (ha ha ha).

Also...how do we know when we're not codep anymore? What IS codep? Everyone has a different definition! Schools of thought in psychology are like different sects in religion. People hold fast to their personal beliefs and get pissed when someone says they're wrong. I mean, look at Bosnia for chrissake! And students of the psyche can sometimes be rather evangelical: "Come to my faith, it's the right faith!"

I suppose this is not really an answer. But, as Broc likes to say, "that's my two cents!"

luv C.

December 29, 1999
4:06 am
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how do you know. I have 16 years invested in mine

December 29, 1999
2:53 pm
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Well, I am NOT in conflict with Broc. Broc and I are agreed on what we see to be a theme of codependency in becca's relationships.
Codependency may not be a dsm11 assessment but it certainly is real.
I KNOW what it is like to put the responsibility of your own personal happiness in the hands of another, a mate. I know what it is like to be addicted to a man, who treats you like heroine, up down and on the ground.
I know this is unhealthy, is not the way to personal happiness, joy and peace.
It doesnt matter what you call it, call this phenomenon that many women experience when trying to find love in a mate who can not give love, and do not possess self love, whatever you want....."nutknocking" for example, it doesnt matter, just because the word doesnt jive with you doesnt mean this basic human pattern doesnt exist. The value of group therapy and advice given from those who really know what they are talking about is, invaluable and priceless. It is exactly what we as human beings are meant to do, pass down the knowledge and wisdom that took us out of a life of hell into a life of peace and happiness. What Broc and I are doing, is not only healing to others but to ourselves. blessings........
The best way to make ones life more fulfilled is to listen to those who are living a fulfilled life.

December 29, 1999
3:02 pm
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Inability to know what "normal" is.
Difficulty in following a project through.
Difficulty having fun.
Judging self, others without mercy.
Low self esteem, often projected onto others. (eg: Why don't they get their act together!)
Difficulty in developing or sustaining meaningful relationships.
Belief that others cause or are responsible for the codependent's emotions.

(Codependents often use language like "you make me feel ______", or "I was made to feel like____")

Overreacting to change. (or intense fear of / inability to deal with change.)
Inability to see alternatives to situations, thus responding very impulsively.
Constantly seeking approval and affirmation, yet having compromised sense of self.
Feelings of being different.
Confusion and sense of inadequacy.
Being either super responsible or super irresponsible. (Or alternating between these.)
Lack of self confidence in making decisions, no sense of power in making choices.
Feeling of fear, insecurity, inadequacy, guilt, hurt, and shame which are denied.
Isolation and fear of people, resentment of authority figures.
Fear of anger or bottling anger up till it explodes.
Hypersensitivity to criticism.
Being addicted to excitement / drama. (Chaos making.)
Dependency upon others and fear of abandonment.
Avoidance of relationships to guard against abandonment fears.
Confusion between love and pity.
Tendency to look for "victims" to help.
Rigidity and need to control.
Lies, when it would be just as easy to tell the truth.

Are you codependent?
Melody Beattie, author of Codependent No More developed this check list:

Do you feel responsible for other people--their feelings, thoughts, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being and destiny?
Do you feel compelled to help people solve their problems or by trying to take care of their feelings?
Do you find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others than about injustices done to you?
Do you feel safest and most comfortable when you are giving to others?
Do you feel insecure and guilty when someone gives to you?
Do you feel empty, bored and worthless if you don't have someone else to take care of, a problem to solve, or a crisis to deal with?
Are you often unable to stop talking, thinking and worrying about other people and their problems?
Do you lose interest in your own life when you are in love?
Do you stay in relationships that don't work and tolerate abuse in order to keep people loving you?
Do you leave bad relationships only to form new ones that don't work, either?

Order Codependent No More today!

December 29, 1999
3:08 pm
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1. Telling all.

2. Talking at an intimate level at the first meeting.

3. Falling in love with a new acquaintance.

4. Falling in love with anyone who reaches out.

5. Being overwhelmed by a person - preoccupied.

6. Acting on the first sexual impulse.

7. Being sexual for your partner, not yourself.

8. Going against personal values or rights to please others.

9. Not noticing when someone else displays inappropriate boundaries.

10. Not noticing when someone invades your boundaries.

11. Accepting food, gifts, touch, or sex that you don't want.

12. Touching a person without asking.

13. Taking as much as you can get for the sake of getting.

14. Giving as much as you can give for the sake of giving.

15. Allowing someone to take as much as they can from you.

16. Letting others direct your life.

17. Letting others describe your reality.

18. Letting others define you.

19. Believing others can anticipate your needs.

20. Expecting others to fill your needs automatically.

21. Falling apart so someone will take care of you.

22. Self-abuse.

23. Sexual and physical abuse.

24. Food and chemical abuse.

This list provided by Recovery.org.

December 29, 1999
3:20 pm
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Healthy Relationships:
Non-Threatening Behavior
• Talking and acting so that your partner feels safe and comfortable doing and saying things.

Respect
• Listening to your partner non-judgmentally.

• Being emotionally affirming and understanding.

• Valuing opinions.

Trust and Support
• Supporting your partner’s goals in life.

• Respecting your partner’s right to his or her own feelings, friends, activities and opinions.

Honesty and Accountability
• Accepting responsibility for self.

• Acknowledging past use of violence and / or emotionally abusive behavior, changing the behavior.

• Acknowledging infidelity, changing the behavior.

• Admitting being wrong when it is appropriate.

• Communicating openly and truthfully, acknowledging past abuse, seeking help for abusive relationship patterns.

Responsible Parenting
• Sharing parental responsibilities.

• Being a positive, non-violent role model for children.

Shared Responsibility
• Mutually agreeing on a fair distribution of work.

• Making family decisions together.

Abusive Relationships:
Using Intimidation
• Making your partner afraid by using looks, actions, gestures.

• Smashing or destroying things.

• Destroying or confiscating your partner's property.

• Abusing pets as a display of power and control.

• Silent or overt raging.

• Displaying weapons or threatening their use.

• Making physical threats.

Using Emotional Abuse
• Putting your partner down.

• Making your partner feel bad about himself or herself.

• Calling your partner names.

• Playing mind games.

• Interrogating your partner.

• Harassing or intimidating your partner.

• "Checking up on" your partner's activities or whereabouts.

• Humiliating your partner, weather through direct attacks or "jokes".

• Making your partner feel guilty.

• Shaming your partner.

Using Isolation
• Controlling what your partner does, who he or she sees and talks to, what he or she reads, where he or she goes.

• Limiting your partner’s outside involvement.

• Demanding your partner remain home when you are not with them.

• Cutting your partner off from prior friends, activities, and social interaction.

• Using jealousy to justify your actions.

(Jealousy is the primary symptom of abusive relationships; it is also a core component of Love Addiction.)

Minimizing, Denying and Blame Shifting
• Making light of the abuse and not taking your partner’s concerns about it seriously.

• Saying the abuse did not happen, or wasn't that bad.

• Shifting responsibility for your abusive behavior to your partner. (i.e: I did it because you ______.)

• Saying your partner caused it.

Using Children
• Making your partner feel guilty about the children.

• Using the children to relay messages.

• Using visitation to harass your partner.

• Threatening to take the children away.

Using Male Privilege
• Treating your partner like a servant.

• Making all the big decisions.

• Acting like the "master of the castle."

• Being the one to define men’s and women’s or the relationship's roles.

Using Economic Abuse
• Preventing your partner from getting or keeping a job.

• Making your partner ask for money.

• Giving your partner an allowance.

• Taking your partner’s money.

• Not letting your partner know about or have access to family income.

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