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saw this on the news and it really makes me mad
September 5, 2001
9:13 am
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sue2001
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I am sure that every one has heard of that guy nicholea that stabbed his pregnant wife and other members of his family to death.,.. what makes me mad is that they are charging him with murder of the fetus that his wife was carrying... ... What I am mad about is that there are still abortion clinics..... What is that all about.. A woman can go out and have an abortion because the claim is that the baby she is carrying is not a "life" yet so she can get rid of it and there are protective measures taken to keep her from danger as she goes to take that life... But this guy that will most likely spend his days on death row and then die himself has been charged with murder of the fetus that the woman could have murdered with no recourse from the gevernment..... Don't get me wrong I am not defending him he deserves what he gets and alot more for killing his family... MY point is that really do we have the CHOICE every one is screaming we do have... it really seems to be what ever works at the time... what ever happened to equality.... what is good for the gander good for the goose thing.... like in another situation that I know of.... a woman left her husband for what ever reason and dated another man and found her self pregnant she did not want that child so she considered abortion and couldn't (thank god) so she put it up for adoption.... some folks think she is selfish others think she was strong and a hero kind of thing because she gave a child a loving family and a couple a child to raise....she doesn't have to even think about that child if she did not want to.... so but at the same time a man leaves his wife... he gets another girlfriend she gets pregnant he doesn't want the baby but he has to pay child support for the rest of the childs life... and if he doesn't pay he is a dead beat dad... and even worse if he chooses to not have any thing to do with child... I think that is wrong... if the woman had wanted to get an abortion and he wanted the child there is nothing he could have done to stop it... so I am not stating my opinion as to who is right and wrong or my views on abortion... I think that is dangerous in any form of talking to other people... all I am stating is that the laws are not equal and they don't protect everyone the same way... at all... Please I am not makeing this an abortion issue... I am simply making a statement..... thankyou sue

September 5, 2001
12:20 pm
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Ladeska
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Yeppers.....rather interesting, isn't it? I think it's probably because the guy who stabbed his wife wasn't making money by doing it.

No, no, no....I really do know the answer to this....the difference is - the woman didn't give consent. If she were to say it was okay to let someone stab her unborn child - then it would be okay, right? I mean I can't imagine anyone saying it's okay to do that, but it happens every day....in fact, with the suction and curettage method - the baby is actually pulled apart much like you would pull a cooked chicken apart with tongs....a limb here, a head there.... But, that's okay because you can't hear the baby scream. But, if you watch the movie called - The Silent Scream - which is a real abortion on tape - you see into the mother's womb and you see the baby back up as far back as it can get to the back of the womb to avoid the instrument that is coming into dismember it. You see the horror on that tiny face and you know - that the baby very much knows and feels pain.... When I saw this movie...I can't remember ever raising up like that and spitting tears out of my eyes instantly. I never had gutoral cries come out of my being quite like I did that night....brought me to my knees...and made me shiver regarding all the blood that is on our hands...and the money that is in our pockets...all in the name of choice, population control, etc.

Guess if you can't hear the scream - the baby has no voice...kinda like the tree that falls in the forest - if no one is there to hear it - did it really make a sound?

Geez...I listen and read every day about how smart we are and you'd think with all our brains - we could put our heads together and make another "choice" that's humane all the way around.. But Noooo....we're still back at the sacrifice altar handing the priest our babies. Same thing, we just label it differently.

We offer the innocent in exchange for - our own success or what we perceive as success, to hide our guilt as in cases of incest and pre-marital affairs, and end up justifying it instantly because the "herd" got together and said it was okay... I'm sure all those ancient civilizations had a stamp of approval on what they did, too.....did it make it right?

We look at them now in disgust and yet scoot what we are doing right under the living room carpet and say - well now, that's different... "Is it?"

The most deadly weapon we possess is our ability to instantly formulate a justification for something we do that is illicit. The second most deadly weapon is our desire to believe our own lies....

September 5, 2001
2:13 pm
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Molly
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My husband who is really anti choice, unless it comes down to one of his sons, gurrr, brought up this conversation this morning, he fights his agenda when ever he can, stating exactly what you did Sue.
What I think is sad, is that I think it is agenda based, 1) stick as many charges on as possible 2) debate for ever again, when does life begin.
If the persue this charge, it will be tied up in court for ever. The saddest thing in the world is the punishment will most likely not fit the crime, regardless. The whole thing is just so sad, and disgusting.
Just like the missing person thing with politicians, how many women get reported missing daily, but what makes the front page.

September 5, 2001
7:04 pm
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Alena
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I remember when the Supreme Court decided it was more important for women to have the right to choose than it is for a baby to live. It makes me sick. And, no , Ladeska, I've never seen the movie, heard about it, don't think I could take it. Maybe they should show it at abortion clinics prior to signing the papers....
I'm so sick of the same crap spewed around when this issue comes up too,...."it's our bodies...we have a right....blah, blah, blahhhhh".........wrong! It is not your body, it's INSIDE your body and if you want to lop off an arm or a leg of your own, or stab yourself in the heart, THAT'S your body, be my guest...... a living being is NOT your body. N.O.W. talks about how far we've come, bull, we've regressed. We've traded our consciences and our integrity and our ability to nurture for what we call independence and equal rights. It sucks. Women use abortions now as a form of birth control, how abominable. What are we teaching children who have grown up with abortion rights?? Where does murder begin??? And we wonder why so many young people have no value for human life.

I know you didn't want this to be an abortion thing Sue, but it's such a strong issue, it's hard not to be passionate, and yes disgusted and frustrated. You're very right in asking your question...talk about hipocritical government, gimme a break. I've made my opinion known at the polls, in writing, in actions, in RTL groups, too much big money somewhere, can't fight the almighty buck.

September 6, 2001
11:26 am
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Ladeska
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I used to be a counselor at a Crisis Pregnancy Center and alot of what I saw just broke my heart. I am sooo against people going to abortion clinics and standing outside with horrible pictures, railing at the women going inside. I detest all that. Is so wounding to those women who are already in a bad situation. That's just not the way to do things. Trauma on top of trauma - produces trauma.

But, we were pro-life, just went about things differently. The "sensitivity" training that I had to take before I could counsel women was absolutely wonderful... I learned so much. Thought I was sensitive before, but got taken down a button hole or two, let me tell you! We basically - offered information that they might not otherwise have - in order that - they could make an educated choice.

They had to sign papers giving permission to see the movie I spoke of and we had things we wouldn't do - like sit between them and the door, the way we conducted our conversations had to be full of respect and we offered services later for them if they did get an abortion and had problems afterwards.

The services offered were wonderful - free medical care, pregnancy housing, baby items, furniture, clothes for mom and baby and if we were needed to coach them in the delivery room - we were there and there was counseling available for the family, spouse, boyfriend, etc. So, we tried to do as much follow-through on all fronts as was possible.

It was just so interesting to me - how many of these women didn't "know" the risks and procedures of all kinds of abortions. I was very amazed at how many people didn't know the law as it pertains to being able to do a full-term abortion. People would say - oh, they rarely do that and only in the case of the woman's health being threatened. I said well...the law states that if it jeopardizes the woman's health and that can be interpreted and is interpreted to mean....emotional and mental wellbeing, which can equate to - I just don't feel like having a baby today. Is an inconvenience to me....is making me depressed, etc. Happens all the time. And with the partial birth abortions - not sure how anyone can really look at that procedure and not call it savage.

But, we don't want "to look", that's the whole problem here. Kind of like anytime atrocities go on in the world and we could have stepped in. We just like to turn our heads and go - we don't want to know. I say - if you're going to do this thing...then have the balls to see the movie, look at the pictures, consider that there is someone who has the job of sitting at a table and piecing together little arms and legs and head to a mutilated torso in order that they may have "gotten it all" so the woman doesn't die of embolism or infection.

How can we celebrate the growing of a "wanted baby" and yet despise the growth of an "unwanted baby"? I've never understood that. Here one minute we talk about how it's forming and how miraculous and beautiful it is and then the next minute - it's to be ripped to shreds, or burned alive with saline or have it's head crushed in with a partial birth abortion - and all of a sudden we can just "switch". How can we do that and not suffer the consequences of something really vile growing in us as a result?

And we wonder why......we are turning into a people who's consciences are being more and more seared? We wonder why a child can go to a school and blow away their classmates? Really? Are we really that stupid? Or do we think we can outrun the consequences of our actions, that we can die before the sh**t really hits the fan?

A seared conscience comes from somewhere.....and there is nothing more sad to me than to see a woman who has had 3 or 4 abortions by the age of 25 and now wants to have a baby desperately.....but has had two miscarriages already and is absolutely distraught - hoping against hope that this one she's carrying makes it b/c now she has a good man in her life and wants a family. But, there I would stand - her chart in hand and see the suction/curettage abortions - where a doctor goes in blindly with a sharp instrument and carves up the baby - making scars inside her as he goes. So that when the fetus needs to attach later - guess what? It might attach for awhile, but won't be able to maintain and will miscarry because of the scarring. I could say nothing....but just look at her, hurt for her and hope with her....

Not to even mention the women that I saw who came back later because of their emotional trauma from abortions. What I saw most was that women had a coldness towards children in general. I've known alot of women who have had abortions and then later had children and to be quite honest - I wouldn't have wanted any of these women to have been my mother from what I saw of their interaction with their children. Very detached... Guilt doesn't just - go away, regardless of how much paint you put on it or how many people applaud you. Many gang members pat their guys on the back for shooting up some guy in the hood, too, but does that make it right?

Not to say that is the case with everyone - because their are incredible people among us who rise above many obstacles, and there are those who get tremendous healing and go on with their lives in a healthy way. But, to say that we can rip our young from our bellies and walk on with having no effect on our being whatsoever - is about the most stupid thing I think any reasoning human being could ever utter of their mouths and call themselves - intelligent. But, history will tell the story about that one....we cover our stuff up in the litter box just about as fast as we lay it down..

What I don't see.....is the ability we humans also have - to take ownership for a wrong road and really own it, be responsible for it and do what it takes to turn it around. We can do that...but the easy road calls to us and we blindly follow after where someone else has carved a path. And we wonder why the bible speaks of us as being - sheep....duh

September 6, 2001
2:05 pm
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sue2001
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Ladeska
I admire your passion on this issue... and I agree I once went with a friend to a clinic... I did not want her to get the abortion... I tried my best to talk her out of it... I told her I would take the baby or I would help her to get it adopted... I talked to her all the way there and untill the appointment... I tried after wards to stay friends with her... I just couldn't I knew that the excuse she gave for the abortion was a lie.. and it really hurt her too.. she was never the same as before... she kept saying that the baby she aborted was meant to be here and that when she did have a family that the next baby will be the same that she aborted.... scary huh...
any way really the point I was trying to make with this post is that the government in general support pro choice I mean that is obvious because of the clinics that are open right.. any way we can abort babies because they are not human there fore it is not murder... but when it is convienent we can call that a human just to add too a rap sheet that is already gonna sink his ship any way...
I think the person or people that are charging him with that murder should be chaining up every abortion clinic in the county , state , country, world,. Just so no one is confused.. II am PRO LIFE

September 6, 2001
3:30 pm
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Ladeska
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Sue - Sorry I got off the subject here and went into a tangent. (oops) But, the point you make is right on. Is it a baby or isn't it? We kinda got caught with our pants down on that one. Does seem to be - what's convenient at the time. That kind of thinking is rather evident, too, in our courtrooms across the board. It never really stings....until it is "you" hanging in the balance or someone you love. It's funny, but in the animal kingdom a mother carrying babies - will eat you - for trying to harm her or her unborn. And we are the ones with the "reasoning" ability. Go figure.

Hearing about your friend makes me very sad for her and for you. I've seen so much of this lived out over time and it's tragic. But no one wants to talk about all that. Then we might get real about what's going on here. I had a teenager say to me not too long ago - he was having trouble getting along with his mother and he says - geez, I don't why I think she really cares about me - I just found out she aborted the child before me and now I think she wishes she had of aborted me, too... So, the long arm of consequences does reach out for many years....

Funny, but my mother told me she wished she had of aborted me and tried to talk me into aborting my daughter. I didn't of course, and my daughter was the bright spot of her whole life when she was born and growing up. My daughter is a beautiful human being.

I still resent my mother strongly for all that. In fact, we don't speak for alot of reasons, but that's definitely one of them in my book. Once you start down that slippery path of no conscience - it's hard to turn around.... She is one hard and cold lady.

September 6, 2001
5:06 pm
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1dvsgirl
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Sue - the reason he was charged with the murder of the fetus she was carrying is because she was far enough along in her pregnancy (about 7 months) that the fetus could have survived had it been delivered. It is not an abortion/choice issue. I am pro-choice because it should never go back to the way it was before Roe vs. Wade, and changing the law won't stop the abortions. I myself have a beautiful 5 yo I chose to have at 19. I have miscarried 3 times since and would never have an abortion of my own. That though was not the motivating factor in this indictment. Statutes, especially in CA, are very specific as to when someone can be charge in the death of an unborn child. It may seem like splitting hairs, but accroding to the law they would not have been able to charge him with the murder of the fetus had she been less than 24 weeks. Just had to put my 2 cents in...

September 6, 2001
6:42 pm
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Ladeska
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The only other thing I will say (and then I'll shut up (*smile*) is that I never could understand why we look at the "choice" being at the time after conception. Shouldn't the choice that everyone talks about be - before conception not after a life has already been started? Kind of like trying to erase something after you've already sent it into motion.... Again I say that if that baby could speak for itself - we might not be able to continue with what Roe Vs. Wade put into motion. But since they can't speak and can't vote and can't put money into the pot here....then they don't seem to matter. Hm,m,m....there's alot of people on the planet that we could take advantage of in a similar fashion if we applied the same line of thinking... Sort of like how Hitler saw the Jews - as "non people" and justified slaughtering them. Kinda scary for our generation as we approach the age of euthenasia...

September 6, 2001
9:45 pm
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Alena
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We could never go back to the way it was before Roe vs. Wade. Prior to 1973 and the supreme court ruling, women were just becoming familiar with "birth control pills".More women got pregnant because there was no good form of protection. I know because I was a young woman trying to not get pregnant and still have a responsible sex life. Yes, women were having back room abortions and some were suffering and dying from the procedures. But today, birth control is virtually free at any clinic so what's the problem with being responsible and making that choice before the conception? I believe it's because we do have a generation since 1973 growing up with the freedom to abort and not give it a second thought, so it has become birth control. This generation has heard the mantra all of their lives that,hey, we women deserve equal rights, don't be the only one responsible for birth control, blah, blah, blah. How could we ever go back to that time before? So much has changed, a fourteen year old can walk into a clinic and get whatever she needs for protection if she knows she wants to be sexually active. But because so many of us don't want to believe that a fetus is a life, we tell ourselves that, so we are relieved of our responsibility. Hey, it's not up to me to be responsible, court says I have a right to have unsafe sex, I can just fix it all, and it's even free for some. Yippee....Every single one of us needs to take responsiblility for our own actions, in all aspects of life. When it comes to taking the life of an innocent, growing, heart-beating soon to be child, we turn our heads and lament about the back room abortions. Sorry, but I say, "tough", give it up for adoption. You made the choice to have intercourse, that was where your choice would have affected only you and your partner. Once you're pregnant, the only choice should be keep it or give it up. We have decreased the value of human life in our country when we announce that it is more important to sacrifice the lives of millions of innocents so that hundreds or even thousands of women who made their choices, don't die in illegal abortions.

And the arguement about having children up for adoption and nobody wants them and that whole song, it still goes back to responsibility. The time for choices is before you get into the bed. If we made that a law, had another generation grow up with that law, maybe there would be no need for any abortions, backroom or legal.

Heck, I wasn't planned. There are 9 years between my sister and me, but my parents had me, loved me, it was just the thing to do. No other options, it wasn't in the plans, but make the best of it, God intended it, yada yada. that was before the Pill.

So many standards have been lowered since the sixties, this is just one of them. And then we all shake our heads and wonder what the heck is wrong with young people....duh. We need to look within.....
Just my opinion....

September 7, 2001
9:14 am
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sue2001
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ok here is another something that could go along with the life/choice thing...I saw on a drama on lifetime where this woman in a clinic was wanting to tie tubes of any one that wanted it done for free... of course every one jumped up and fought their fight... but lets look at this... tieing tubes is not absolutely permanant....most of the women were drug users.. lived on the streets or really close to the streets.. but some were not....they wanted their tubes tied one of the doctors that worked in that clinic was very upset and wanted to stop it because she said what if they wanted to have children later... you know they could straigten up get their life together and want a child later... well they can get their tubes untied it is possible then the argument but that would be invasive that it would damage our bodies WELL we all do alot of things that damages our bodies... drugs alcohal cigarettes plastic surgery, sunbathing, eating, I would rather see a woman sore for a few days after a corrective surgery for her tubes than a baby crying in a trash can....alena and ladeska is right take the responsiblity before it happens there isn't a person alive that doesn't know that they could get pregnant if they have sex... even if pills have been taken condems have been worn tubes have been tied cut or burnt... I don't know the exact spot in the bible but Iknow that it says in there that God knew you before you were formed in the whomb that has to mean that you had a purpose there was a reason for you and I don't think we as mere mortals have the right to decide that soul should not get to live... in that same sense I don't get to kill any one including my self and we as a whole do not have the right to kill any one I mean the death penalty... yes there are times that I see something happen and even I say he deserves to die... but what right do I have to decide that .... that life is just as presious to our maker as my life..and as long as we are on the subject of life and death does any one else get an erie feeling in thier pit on this cloning issue? I mean is that birth sanctioned by God... I mean we are smart we can figure things out... but look at what happened to the angel in heaven that decided he wanted what God had.... he wanted to do the things that God could do..... and he tried and he mimicked the things God did, what happened to him? he was cast out of heaven to crawl on his belly for all of eternity,... I know that the devil himself is not in the snakes.. but he took the body of a snake to talk to eve in the garden.. or so I am taught and have read... and now I am not getting in to religion here... I am saying is any one else scared of the idea of a clone I mean will that clone have a soul will he be the one that is THE ANTICHRIST... isn't it scary just a little bit.... that the human and just a human is trying to do what GOD alone can do... can any one imagine our maker looking on and shaking his head and thinking what fools we are most of us are parents in here.. and we are proud of our children, especially when they do something wonderful. But what about when they (our children) start doing things against our beliefs our very being as a whole and really turns the knife on what we know is right... Imagine how you would feel in that situation and imagine how OUR FATHER feels... I am simply making a statement.. I think about stuff like this all of the time... and I don't have to many places to express it ... SUE

September 7, 2001
11:51 am
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Ladeska
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Sue....Do you feel better now? (smile) I know, those thoughts do run around in our heads, don't they? Cloning is an interesting subject, isn't it? To make someone like ourselves....? Hm,m,m....little bit of narcissim going on here or what? Actually, it goes farther than that one. It's about the desecration of life in all it's creativity and trying to take that creative force away from God and assign to ourselves. And at the bottom of that pile is indeed - the persona of Satan himself. Forever jealous of God and the creative force of life and liveliness that He alone possesses.

We are such good little puppets in this regard...hey, let's slaughter some babies in the "supposed" most sanctified and safe place on earth - the womb...and then how about we - harvest baby parts to help keep us around longer so we don't have to die and face God....and OH, I know - how about making clones of ourselves so that we can multiply our likeness and skip right over this thing of - everyone's a unique creation baloney....

Will the clones have souls? Well....if I read my bible right - it does seem to infer that demons really like to have bodies to run around in... But, not that people really believe in that hokey pokey stuff, right? We can believe in horrorscopes and trust in the fact that something in the universe blew up one day and all this magnificent life just appeared here or that we "evolved" and yet nothing is still "changing" as we speak...(?)

It seems - we only like to accept - that which we can control....

So....saying that clones would be a great place for demonic spirits to dwell in - is just me being whacko, I know....please forgive me....it's my medication...I lapse into deep wells of my own imagination at times...

...not to even mention the fact that in the last days - what the demonic force will display here on earth in the ways of signs and wonders will really plaster our eyelids back....um, no....I think this cloning thing will just be a wunderful advancement for mankind...one giant step...."somewhere"....

You know, it would be different if I had never witnessed real demonic activity in people and know for a fact what's up with that... I'm about the worst person to present anything like this to. Would have laughed my butt off if someone had tried to convince me demons were real - had I not walked the road I have. In all the scenarios - the same characteristics appear - across the board. Being of a rather rational and analytical mind - I can't ignore consistencies...

It's funny, - I really do very much know...God knew all this about us....knew we would go there, knew we'd fall for the seduction of an entity that hates life itself, knew that our base state without our connection to the One who made us - would make us basically implode and feed upon ourselves, which is precisely what we are doing. He knew all that and like Max Lucado so eloquently said..."when the apple was crunching in Eden, Christ was leaving for the Cross". He knew we couldn't "fix it". Once things were set in motion, once the clock of sin and dying on all levels had started ticking - there was no undoing it....except that the blood of the God who made us - would mingle with our own and correct the spiritual DNA that we had basically destroyed....if we so choose to accept that...

He knew all the horrors that mankind would do.....and He still made a provision for - the way back home...

September 7, 2001
12:31 pm
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sue2001
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Thank you and any one that is wondering God our Maker does not allow all the bad that happens We do ... We have choices and we make them everyday it just really aggravates the fire out of me when I hear someone say if He was a loving God.. he would or wouldn't allow this or that to happen....well are you a loveing parent... ? do you love your kids... I know not everyone has children and I don't know how to compare for any one that does not.... do you wish for your child not to suffer and to die... God is the same way... He is loving and he doesn't want us to suffer and die so he has allowed away for us not to thru his son.... JESUS... as a parent how many times have we grounded our children for what they have done wrong... and at the end of the sentence we ask have you learned any thing.. (if they are smart they will not say no :))we tell them we don't want to have to punish you But we don't want you to get hurt... We love you and we want what is best for you ... that is not to say that what we think is best is really.. any way...Our Father made two humans to govern over the land . He gave them only one rule... and that was to obey him ... Really after all that they had what would they have needed to justify disobeying Him... BUT the devil knew the temptation could not be over come and so did God I am sure.. Of course he knew what would happen but he had to know that with a choice that we would choose the right path,,, the first woman chose the wrong path... she lost her life and her first son and ultimatly her second son when he was banished.. she new the pain and heartache of her mistake... Now we all must die we all will feel the heartache and the pain that started so many thousands of years ago... BUT Our Father is a forgiving father and he sent his son.,.. to die for our sins His blood washes us clean and all we have to do to get it is ask and know and believe..... and it shall be given...How gracious of a Parent is that.. I mean what more can we ask for from a loving Parent to give His children a second chance,,,you know he could have damned us all to hell with out a second thought.. but he didn't the promise of an everlasting life is there all we have to do to get it is accept Jesus that he did come and he did die for our sins...We are all promised what adam and eve gave up.. THe kingdom of paridise...
our little lives here on earth and all of our troubles will be wiped away and we will live in paradise forever and ever amen... sorry ok I will get off the soap box and carry on...

September 7, 2001
12:37 pm
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Cici
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Hmmm...

Interestingly enough, I'm taking Infant psychology this semester, going from conception to about 18 months. We go over the development of the fetus, from blastosphere (basically a hollow ball of cells) to fetus to infant to toddler.

It's strange to me, to see the different pictures and movies of the fetus, which until about 2 months looks like the fetus of every other mammal in existence, and some amphibians, too. It takes several weeks for the neural tube to develop into an actual brain-like structure.

Currently doctors have changed terminology regarding pregnancy at different stages. Early term pregnancy is now called a chemical pregnancy, because that's just what it is. In fact, over 50% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, often without the mother's knowledge, because the body naturally weeds out unfit fetuses, usually.

I've known a handful of girls my age and younger who had abortions. I wouldn't dream of even telling them they were killers, evil, or wrong. Because I knew them personally, I knew what their lives were like.

One of my friends got pregnant accidentally, she was on the pill AND used condoms, religiously. I'll tell you why. She has been cut off from her family, kicked out as soon as she turned 18 because her parents were inconvenienced by having children. She knew that getting pregnant was not an option for her, but somehow she did. She works 50 hours a week, goes to school full time, and doesn't even have enough money to have cable. She is at school from 7:30am to 9pm every day, and on call for work (she's a vet tech at an emergency hospital) every other weekend, 24 hours a day. When she is on call she has to go into work for surgery, sometimes at 3 or 4am, and stays there for at least 8 hours after.

Since both my sisters recently had babies, I can understand why my friend had an abortion, because even if you don't keep the baby, pregnancy is hard on you. And what if what happened to my sister happened to my friend? My sister had twins that were 3 months premature, and without insurance their medical bills would be over $400,000. Can a college student with no support structure, no money and no time afford to pay that? Should she just go on welfare for the interim?

I recently had a pregancy scare. I have always known I would never have an abortion. But I would never, ever presume to judge women for having abortions. I don't know their lives, their circumstances, and their reasons. I don't know them, so how can I judge them?

The thing is, every time I have sex I know I could get pregnant. I use the fertility awareness method along with a barrier method. Almost every girl I know uses at least 2 separate contraceptive methods. You can put a lot of thought into contraception, but no matter what, there is always a chance. So even though I'm married, I know I couldn't afford a child right now...should I remain celibate, to be a thoughtful enough person?

September 7, 2001
1:03 pm
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Alena
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Cici, I gotta run, we are outa here for a week, to the beach, but I did want to answer your post for just a minute.

I know women like the ones you speak of, and I would never call any of them murderers or killers either, I don't judge them, but I do have opinions and if I can fight abortion at the polls in my own personal right, that's what I'll do. I believe in the right of that unborn fetus/child, no matter what. No matter if the mother is a poor college student, no matter if she's married and can't afford a baby, no matter if she has any money problems at all, in my humble opinion, the life of that baby takes precedence over any other circumstance. Quit school for now, get a full time job, impose on family, do what you have to do, sorry, that's how I feel. And it's what I did so I know it can be done. Yes, it worked for me and I'm not saying everyone should do as I do, but in this case, in the case of an innocent life, I want women to take responsibility for the act they engaged in and created a life. I'm sorry if for some reason the pill and condoms didn't work, that's not the norm. It's not so much a religious thing with me as it is a human rights thing. You have the right to go to school, to wait to have children to do anything within the laws that you want to do...until you take a life, in my opinion. The law still alows abortions so that's the way it is. For now, hopefully, it will change, until then, I only express my opinion when it comes up, maybe I can turn someone away from an impending abortion just by looking at it differently, maybe not. Just the fact that so many young women find the pregnancy and child an inconvenience today scares me...it's a life. Shouldn't that take precedent over convenience? If it means some of the luxuries we want will have to wait, oh well, it's.. a ...life. And if the pregnancy is hard on someones body, oh well, see a doctor, heal, do what all mothers do, ...it's a life. I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes, I respect everyone's beliefs, I'm no way an activist, I wouldn't hurt anyone for whatever they decide to do. I just feel soooo strongly that life is #1, if not, what have we become and where will it all lead? As Ladeska mentions, euthanasia? Maybe even forced euthanasia because that old person is senile and not capable of making a decision? Will we then make that decision too? You can say it's apples and oranges, but it isn't, it's also a matter of life or death. We've decided it's okay to slaughter a baby because they can't speak for themselves, what about the old or infirmed who also cannot? I just feel very sad, for the babies, for the women, for our gender and species in general. I know it's not fashionable today to believe in pro-life, sounds old fashioned, so be it. I'll take that chance and keep on hoping life gets back to being a priority someday in my lifetime.

Everyone have a safe and peaceful week, 🙂

September 7, 2001
1:25 pm
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well one thought on the old people... if death at the beginning of life is tolerated accepted and celebrated to a point then what about death at the end those last days when they are laying in a nursing home bed just waiting till there body finally gives up and stops... hey the baby is an inconvience so what about the aging ...some one has to feel the guilt of letting that old person lay there someone has to turn that old person some one has to clean that old person I bet if the powers that be had to do all of that then we would have an old person death clinic.... push one button they are gone r.i.p. That is wrong I don't think that way every one embryo fetus toddler all have the right to live because they were formed...every old person just hanging on every murderer every rapist we will have our day before the one and only judge....

September 7, 2001
1:38 pm
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Cici
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I agree...I feel like life should be wasted, either. But my inclination that life shouldn't be wasted moves beyond the womb - I worry not only about the life of the fetus but about the life of the infant, the toddler, the child that comes AFTER the fetus.

I don't view prgnancy as an inconvenience, I feel it is my duty as a prospective parent to provide the best possible life to my children. I feel that right now, I could never do that! I would have to quit school, yes, and go to work, and all my bitterness and regret would be inside of my heart, and would find its way inside my children. It's not about what I want, or luxuries I want. It's about the health, well-being, and life of the child.

I was reading about neural development in my infant psych text. There was a dialogue box about poverty. Development of the prefrontal cortex occurs well into adolescence...myelination of the axons of those neurons remains incomplete until the late teens/early 20s. Development continues past the womb. Tough cookies, you get pregnant, deal with it - with your continued, poverty-induced poor nutrition, living in crappy apartments with lead paint peeling off the walls, with no education, no ability to get better than a minimum wage job. Where I live there is no living wage. People have fought in increase minimum wage for years, because you can't live off of $5.25/hour...but that's what it is here.

Statistically speaking, average levels of wide-spread violence decreased after abortion was legalized.

Big picture: the vast majority of abortions procedures take places in women who live in poverty. I can pull some stats from my infant psych book if you want. Social decay is directly related to poverty. More impoverished people usually leads to more poverty.

I dealt with men at the forensic mental hospital who's mothers were crackheads, who were unwanted and shoveled from foster home to foster home and they turned out to be the unwanted of society, and we spend about $80,000/year housing them in a mental hospital run by the state. What if that child had been wanted, valued, cared-for? I thought of that often while going over competency issues with the residents. I thought about it and I cried. Because it isn't the child's fault they were unwanted and born into poverty, without the intellectual ability to work their way out of poverty, without the tools and security that we take for granted.

Quality of life is more important than quantity, don't you think?

September 7, 2001
1:55 pm
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sue2001
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I think that it should be equal... of course either one of us could go to either side of the fence and hear the pros and cons of either side.. what needs to be done is education ... I think that Ladeska said it earlier... we need to take responsibility before it happens... It is easy to say well stop having sex that would stop the problem but realistically that isn't going to happen... so what do we do now... there is so much sex on tv in advertising everry where you look there is something about sex and the appeal of it... before if a woman had sex with more than one man she was considered a tramp now it is normal to have more than five partners before they are even married... so we go out and try to educate the public.. we use every thing we know of to get the message out but we get knocked down by everything around us.. gloryfying sex as if it doesn't hurt any one... from reading in these posts I would say that more than half of us have problems because of some sort of sex... so it is a cycle... so stop the cycle how... with out a world wide arm in arm stand off against sex we are where we are and that is what we are going to have.... sex,pain, abortion, pain, more sex ,,, more pain.... in the eighties we had hands across america and we are the world maybe what we need is a national wake up like that ... maybe say hey look,... we feel the way we do one way or the other but what the real issue is that we have to stop all of it... maybe hook at the elbows and say "HEY I LIKE SEX AND I WANT TO HAVE IT BUT I WILL DO IT RESPONSIBLY AND WITH THE ONE I LOVE AND ONLY THE ONE I LOVE," It would suit me no better to know that both of my children will only have one partner and not before they married that partner... that is where we need to get back too....

September 7, 2001
2:08 pm
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Cici
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For a summary of the world history of abortion (proof of which dates back to the 11th century BCE!), this is a good link:

http://www.pinn.net/~sunshine/.....ort97.html

In a perfect world, all people would think rationally. But even in my short life I've learned that scolding is pretty much useless...the gift of intelligence was, unfortunately, NOT distributed equally.

The Catholic Church waited until 1869 to change their tune about abortion, did you know? Before that, it was fine to abort a fetus before theology indicated that it had a soul, according to St. Augustine it was 40 days for boys and 80 days for girls. Hmmm.

But because it appeares that women have been relying on abortion for over 30 centuries, 3,000 years, this indicates to me that the behavior that leads to abortion won't be stopping any time soon.

It all comes down to the one thing I find myself saying about government over and over again. You can't legislate private morality. Can't happen. Won't work. Why? Our discussion here is a prime example. I believe what I believe based on research, personal reflection, and reasoning. You believe what you believe, hopefully for the same reasons. But irregardless of the validity of other arguments, we continue to hold fast to our moral inclination. And that's why. It's a personal moral inclincation, and no one can force you to think their way.

September 7, 2001
3:07 pm
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Ladeska
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Yes, it's true Cici. And unfortunately, the person who holds a gun in his hand and is convinced that he has a right to take another person's life because of whatever scenario or reasoning, or intellectual train of thought he might have running at the time - will dictate - what choice he makes when he pulls the trigger or does not pull the trigger. If we have no absolutes, it's all up to personal speculation. And to be quite honest - that's reality - it is up to personal spec. and human nature will always come up with whatever justification for something that is illicit and it will always be - damned good...

September 7, 2001
3:38 pm
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janes
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Great thread girls......what thought and insight!!!!

I myself, could never have an abortion...and didn't. I gave the baby I had at 17 up for adoption....she has since gotten in touch and it's great.

But it isn't always so...I am often ashamed of my fellow Christians who are so eager to "cast the first stone" but would never dream of adopting one of those babies about to be aborted.

How can they stand outside of clinics and be so very hareful when THEIR OWN LORD SAID "YOU WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE".....I don't get it. Why aren't they lining up to adopt those babies, take those girls in for the nine months and show them Christ's true love? If we are saying with our lips and actions that life is sacred...what about the lives of the mother s also? Jesus forgave the prostitute...and told to "go and sin no more"...why are we fallible humans doing so much LESS?

While I could not have an abortion I will not say that you cannot. Even though it pains me to know a life is ending....I will not cast that stone.

The sexual revolutionwas really great.....for men. Women have once again been sucked into a spoot where "between a rock and a hard place" in an understatement.

I am pro-life...and pro choice...that's what God in his wisdom gave us...LIFE and CHOICE (free will). There are not enough unwanted babies around to be adopted.....to bad our Christian organizations aren't making that an issue.

Mouthy as usual......J

September 7, 2001
4:27 pm
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sue2001
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janes and cici and ladeska ... I am not fooled into thinking that we may solve the problems of the world You know who I hate and can't get enough of is that nasty Dr. Laura something or other... she in my opinion is a hateful thing.... BUT she is right on almost everything... we know that we can't make someone stop what they are doing but we know what to say to them STOP it...and cici I don't say you are wrong and will burn in hell I say my choice in this is that I believe He is HE sent his son and His son died on the cross.. that is what I believe hey I could be wrong....

September 7, 2001
4:30 pm
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sue2001
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Janes BTW where have you been I have missed you... it has been at least two weeks....since I last saw you in a thread.....

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