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positive negative fantasy triggers
August 14, 2005
3:24 pm
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horace
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I've been thinking about my last relationship and what triggered my love fantasy. She was confident and attractive. We had some parallel childhoods, especially the cultic, rigid, religious upbringing. I felt like god had brought me the woman I had been praying for. She said the same. She had married abusive alcoholics before, but had read a lot of codependency books and seemed to have done some work. She had done well for herself and owned her own home in the suburbs. There is something about the suburban housewife that triggers my insecurities. I guess it symbolizes the mainstream normal family. Sometimes in the grocery store I feel like I'm the one that the mom's are holding their children close to protect them from. It's completely my issues, but back to the point. The "fact" that this housewife "loved" somehow made me feel ok with myself. I'm finding these fantasies to be very childish, but very real and I want to understand them better, so I will know when I am clouding reality by forcing this fantasy template over it.

Now the negative fantasy, which I'm not as in tune with right now, is what I think I've clung to in the past. It's also the reality template my ex shifted to at the end of our relationship. The best I can tell mine is that women will hurt me - that they will lie to you and trap you - that they will cheat on you - that they will leave you for someone richer or better looking. It's strange. I love, revere, fear, need, and despise them all at the same time. I'm kind of getting off of the point here I think. I'm finding al-anon with it's high percentage of women to be really helpful in this matter. The platanic healthy relationships I think are helping me, but I know it doesnt work that well once sex enters the picture. I have had some dates lately, but with no one I was really interested in anything more than friendship - so it's been going really well. It's when I meet someone who triggers that fantasy when I really have problems, thus the reason for the post. I've been emailing a woman for about 2 months and I think we're going to meet soon. I'm picking up some red flags and I get a little charge when I do or do not get an email from her. It's making me a little nervous. I'm new at this thing and I may be fos about all this positive negative fantasy stuff, but it makes sense to me right now.. love some input.

horace

August 14, 2005
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garfield9547
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Hi Horace

I think if you look at the personality of your mother it would help a lot. Tell more if you can.
Religious upbringing - I had that too.
As what I could gather from therapy the most religious people sometimes are those who have been rejected emotionally as children. The church becomes tha mother figure to them then.
The fact that this housewife loved somehow made me feel ok - Is this a fantasie or reality?
Women will hurt, lie, trap, cheat, leave - Is this a negative fantasie?

Sorry, just trying to get it.
Fantasies can be wonderful and give us hope. They can also control us and destroy us.

You have to start (I think) at your childhood again to understand yourself better. What about your father?
Tell more if you want to

Garfield

August 14, 2005
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Horace

Please read rage, shame and the death of love. It helped my husband allot with his fantasies. Here they talk about the GOLDEN FANTASY.

The Children of Narcissists
Home
Many say that narcissists' children are likely to marry narcissists. While I see where this idea comes from and have seen it happen myself, I have not observed any "co-dependence." That's a fancy word for being a glutton for punishment.

The truth is more complicated than that. Also, let us not forget that we are talking about normal people. Yes, they typically are meek, too patient, and have low self-esteem. But that does not make them sick in the head. They are also typically strong. Unlike the personality-disordered, they are not machines. They each respond to the influence of parental narcissism in his or her own way.

In fact, I bet research would find that the normal children of narcissists are more likely to never marry. This might depend on whether the narcissistic parent was father, mother, or both and on whether the child is a man or a woman.

I can hear those gears in your head grinding. Does this mean that they are likely to be homosexual? Considering all the Freudian permutations that could be at work, that doesn't seem far out to me. But I don't know of any homosexual children of narcissists. I know of one frigid narcissistic daughter of a narcissist, and I will bet the farm on another. But, I have seen nothing in the normal children of narcissists that hinted at anything but typical heterosexuality. Unless you subscribe to the bigoted myths that all married people are heterosexual, that all single people are frigid or homosexual, and that homosexuality is some mental disease.

There are, however, some other things it is pretty safe to say about the normal children of narcissists.

One is that they are likely to tolerate narcissists. When you grow up with things, you have no way of knowing that they are abnormal. You think that some people "are just like that." You're trained to tolerate it, because to do anything but is a sin. You're even brainwashed into thinking it's your fault. You have no way of knowing that everybody's home is not like yours, that you are growing up in a home headed by somebody who belongs in psyche ward.

If you are a Baby-Boomer, you didn't even get a clue from TV. You grew up watching Father Knows Best and Leave It to Beaver. Father's role reinforced your narcissistic father's superiority and infallibility by virtue of his age, size, and sex. But since TV fathers came from a different planet than yours, the threshold for suspension of your disbelief was much higher than for other people. Too high. So these shows were not at all realistic to you, and you were fully unaware that the family life portrayed on TV is pie-in-the-sky fiction, meant to idealize rather than portray family life. Therefore, even TV gave you no clue that other families were different, that your daddy sucked and that you had every right to what you craved. TV today is a little better at portraying normal family life, but not much.

Yet tolerance of narcissists is not knuckling under to them. Let's clear up the sloppy thinking that equates the two.

Nobody knows better than the normal children of narcissists that, to survive as a person, you must never let anyone own you. They protect their right to private ownership of themselves, because they know the consequences of letting others make their personal and private choices for them. Such as what to think, how to feel, what to say. They know that letting anybody treat your head as his property, to furnish as he pleases, is moral prostitution that destroys your integrity. They also know that, like any partier who takes over somebody else's house, he is probably going to trash it.

And so, though narcissists ballistically violate every right to privacy they see, thinking their own privacy extends to the outer limits of deep space, the normal children of narcissists are keenly aware of the borders of personal privacy and have fortified them. For example, one narcissist I know of ordered an employee to take the rest of the day off. This was a dirty trick that had successfully gotten other employees to falsely incriminate themselves by obeying the order. But when he tried to thus make up the mind of a narcissist's daughter, he hit a brick wall. She replied, "You can send me home if you want, and if you do I'll go. But you can't order me to take the day off. And I choose not to take the rest of the day off."

Note the willing obedience up to a sharply drawn line she would not let him cross. How do the children of narcissists get so clear about their boundaries and so solid in defense of them?

By surviving a childhood like the story of The Three Little Piggies and the Big Bad Wolf. Each little piggy's house is his person, the private property of his body and mind. Our deepest instincts compel us to not let the Big Bad Wolf just barge in as if he owns the place. Why? Because doing that to another's body is sexual rape, and doing that to another's mind is moral rape, and even little children feel violated by either act. But, unlike the other little piggies, the narcissist's child has learned that when you say no, the Big Bad Wolf huffs and puffs and tries to blow your little house down. So, this little piggy built his of brick.

Note that this is true strength, backbone, integrity, moral purity. It is not the phony strength people of swollen self-esteem think they have. To the contrary, you find it in the modest. Note also that this is responsibility for oneself claimed, not avoided. In other words, the normal children of narcissists are often more grown up than many other people are.

Another thing it is safe to say about the children of narcissists is that, from birth, they have had their self-esteem relentlessly assailed. Abused feelings are tender, sensitive feelings. As easily injured as burned skin. That is just a fact of life, not a moral fault.

So, the children of narcissists are quite sensitive to criticism. It causes them real pain, because it inflames old wounds. To avoid this pain, they are conscientious and try hard to be liked. Since they aim to please, so long as you respect their boundaries, you can easily get them to do anything they do not think is wrong or foolish. Yet they have been trained to feel that something's wrong with them if some intolerant person just can't stand them being the way they are, looking the way they look, feeling the way they feel, or thinking what they think. All this manifests itself as low self-esteem and marks them as sensitive.

Vicious attacks on sensitive feelings and low self-esteem draw far more blood than they would otherwise. So, the normal children of narcissists might as well go around wearing a target with the word VULNERABLE emblazoned on it. On seeing it, every bully in town thinks, "There is somebody I can really hurt" = "somebody I can be really powerful on."

Thus, narcissistic abuse in the home dooms them to life as a target for every bully they encounter. This is one reason why the children of narcissists do marry narcissists — not because they seek narcissistic mates, but because narcissists spot and target them as vulnerable prey. The wolf puts on sheep's clothing and sweeps her off her feet, idealizing her and showering her with affection. Till the honeymoon is over. Then Dr. Jekyll's mask comes off. She was no more likely to fall for this con artist than anybody else. Probably less likely, in fact. But narcissists target the kind of people the normal children of narcissists are.

Often a narcissistic parent targets one child, the most sensitive/vulnerable, to take the brunt of his vaunting abuse. Watching this puts the others through worse hell than his abuse of themselves does. It makes them hate bullying with such passion that they become protective. Hence, they often become altruists. They are unlikely to join everybody else in kissing up to a bully by sicking on whomever he is terrorizing them by making an example of. If the targeted child in their home takes it out on the rest of the world by becoming a narcissist himself, his brothers and sisters feel so sorry for him that they make excuses for him and take his abuse far too long.

Another thing it is safe to say about the children of narcissists is that they have a different view of marriage than other people. For example, the narcissistic son of a narcissistic mother may show no interest in marriage till she is about to die. Then he seeks a replacement for her. The narcissistic daughter of a narcissist may choose to remain single because she "wants no one to own her."

Of course, other factors that vary over time influence marital choices. For instance, half a century ago, being an "old maid" was almost unbearably shameful and made one a social outcast, excluded from social events and the community of friendships that married couples can take part in. It also meant that one would never make a decent living, achieve social stature, or own a home. Though equal rights and the high divorce rate has made society less hostile to the unmarried over time, to this day many employers don't want bachelors.

The normal children of narcissists are nonetheless more careful about marrying than other people are. They have seen nothing in marriage that anyone would want. They dream about "true love," and like most of us, find nothing that fits its description in the movies. They do very much want to avoid the suspicious and critical view society takes of the unmarried, and they want very much to fit in. They also want children. But, the daughters of a narcissistic father, for example, have seen nothing mirrored in their father's eyes for a man to love. So, they doubt professions of love and fear that a lover just wants a wife. They live in fear of a life like their mother's. This ambivalence and caution, through sheer lack of luck, sometimes lead to never finding somebody they trust enough to marry.

Sad? Yes, but not nearly as sad as women who need a man, who view themselves as worth only what they are worth to some man, and who surrender their self-respect to get one. The absence of cupidity is not a vice.

Yet another thing it is safe to say about the normal children of narcissists is that they have probably picked up bad habits in interacting with others. Outwardly, some of these bad habits appear narcissistic. Yet it is easy to tell the difference between a narcissist and a normal person. How? By simply asking him to stop it. The normal child of a narcissist will stop it. (A normal person who is not the child of a narcissist may not be so good about stopping it.) But a narcissist will do it all the more.

This section shows why you should not jump to conclusions about people. There are many more normal children of narcissists than narcissists. So, run that little test of asking him to stop it before you make any judgments.

These behaviors persist through young adulthood. They gradually disappear after the child leaves home, as he gets used to normal people and how things work in the real world.

For example, the child of a narcissist may impolitely enter a room talking to interrupt the extant conversation. He hasn't been taught that this is bad manners. To the contrary, his (dominant) narcissistic parent did that twenty times a day. Also, he has found it so hard to get attention that he feels he must hijack it.

The difference between him and a narcissist, however, is easily demonstrated. If you ask him to stop it, he takes the message deeply to heart. In fact, you will find yourself trying to make him feel less bad about it. His behavior will change. A narcissist's never does. To contrary, if you ask a narcissist to stop doing something, he does it all the more.

Again for example, the only humor he was exposed in his unhappy home was the unfunniness of sarcasm. Life with a narcissist left even his normal parent with nothing to laugh about, except — you guessed it — sarcasm. But again, if you ask him to stop it, he takes the message deeply to heart. Again you find yourself trying to make him feel less bad about it. Again his behavior changes. Whereas a narcissist's never does.

When the child of a narcissist leaves home, it takes a while for his own, natural sense of humor to germinate and grow in a new environment that is not hostile to it. The good news is that, by the time they reach their thirties, the normal children of narcissists often display a sense of humor more witty and charming than that of most other people. Perhaps because they themselves appreciate it so much.

Again for example, the child of a narcissist may not accept praise or compliments gracefully. He is unused to them! Like anything extraordinary in our world, this extraordinary event throws him off balance. He has never learned to simply say, "Thank you."

Like a narcissist, he may protest that he doesn't deserve it. But his reason for doing so is the opposite of a narcissist's. It's not because he feels it would humiliate him to say "Thank you." It's because this praise or compliment conflicts with a long history of judgments against him as being inadequate. He may suspect flattery. This goes with what I said above about the daughters of male narcissists doubting professions of love.

Here again, the difference between him and a narcissist is easily demonstrated. If the other party takes the bull by the horns in the direct approach and responds with, "Why don't you just say 'Thank you?'" or "I am not flattering you. I really mean it" the child of a narcissist ponders his behavior and changes it. A narcissist never does.

The normal parent can do much to ease her child's adaptation to the real world by watching for such behaviors and teaching him to cope with these situations in interactions with normal people. It is as easy as saying, "When somebody compliments you, just say 'Thank you.'"

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO LONG TO EMAIL THE WHOLE THING.

garfield

August 14, 2005
4:21 pm
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Hi Horace

I do not know what went wrong. I e-mailed the wrong one. SORRY

Garfield
Will try again

August 14, 2005
4:27 pm
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Horace Shame pathology is so intense, and generates such powerful negative feelings toward the self, that the shamed individual is unable to derive self-esteem from within. This means that most, if not all, access to self-esteem must be sought through contact with others. The result is that the person who is unable to feel good about himself will engage in relationships with others that seem to represent a cure for shame. Poor self-esteem is another term for shame feelings. The process of acquiring this kind of self-esteem from an intimate relationship occurs when the person meets someone that to him represents a fantasy of redemption. The abiding fantasy that one day someone will appear to release him from his shame. This fantasy can never be realized. No person can ever save another from his shame. When someone believes in this redemptive fantasy, it develops into a recipe for rage. For example, a man marries and yet feels deep within himself that he is inadequate and that no one could ever really love him. The origin of this feeling evolves out of a lonely childhood and develops into a fantasy of redemption that soothes him during the long hours of isolation. He has an image of someone who will appear someday to meet all his needs, deeply love him, and deliver him from his shame and loneliness. This condition is referred to as the "Golden Fantasy." His wife feels trapped by his expectation that she will save him. She must constantly prove to him that she loves him, and when on occasion she fails, he rages. All of her efforts to please, to sacrifice, to be good to him, will evaporate in a moment of rage. She cannot win because she cannot live up to the ideal. There is no possible way to become the ideal because it is based on a fantasy. The rage energy builds until it cannot be contained and spills out through the conduit of entitlement. He feels entitled to rage because she has failed to demonstrate her love for him in accordance with his redemptive fantasy. The surprising quality of rage is that the perpetrator so often does not sense the power of the emotion itself. Because rage is unconscious and automatically stimulated, it can actually bypass consciousness through entitlement. This circumstance often leads to more raging because he may feel the reaction he is getting is unjust.

This article rage, shame and the death of love was a excellent to read.

Garfield

August 14, 2005
4:46 pm
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Hi Horace

I will be online for about 15 minutes. I hope you will respond. It is very difficult to start to open up. I just feel save because nobody know my name where I live or anything. Not a soul that I know will ever see this because nobody knows.

Garfield

August 14, 2005
5:17 pm
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horace
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tnks for responding garfield,
I was at the gym sending some stress out through the treadmill. I appreciate the response, although I was a little confused by the long narcissist post, lol. I have been feeling some depression some during the last month, as a result of grieving the fantasy I think - as well as seeing the falacy of my perfectionism. I've begun alanon and I feel like crying before every meeting. I'm coming up on 2 years with my therapist (emdr), and I've been sober 2.5 years this week. With that said, my relationships with women bring up all those old fears. You ask about my parents. Both parents were children of alcoholic fathers. Mom's left during her senior year in h.s. My dad's cheated on his mom during the same time. My mom got pregnant. They got married and my mom seemed to push all her energies into me. Very strict. I was not going to leave like her father did. Very prideful. Her children were not going to behave like others did. My dad drank some during this time and I think he hit her. I'm not sure what happened but I'm suspicious she beat him with a frying pan in his sleep. He never hit her again, but he was a rager, a worrier, I think he had ptsd from being a fireman and a cop. She used his rage like sicking a dog on me and my sisters and he bought her lots of rings and cars. I was the hero child and they talked about how smart I was and it was never in question that I was to carry on the family name and breed. I had no privacy, and my academic accomplishments never really seemed to be enough. I used to drink under the flag of my parent's abuse, and I finally was able to get them to hear me and admit it during family week at treatment. They're older and just not as scary. My dad has a boss now instead of running his own business and that seems to have bought him some humility. The shoulds that run through my head come from sunday school programming and the hell fire and brimstone. I've worked hard to put away these resentments and now I'm at the hard work of looking at these things and how they've affected me. You know I waited almost 2 years for a relationship while in early sobriety. I have prayed for healing ( to a generic loving god). It gets me through that I chose this life to heal my soul. I guess I'm gettin in a hurry. My therapist says that I can't tell how much less angry I am. I didn't get angry in this last relationship. I think she punished me because I wasn't her fantasy. I was adjusting my fantasy to fit her I think. No more truthful, less vicious. oh yeah, when my mom got into the physical game she was vicious. my dad was a rager, but there was at least some perceivable discipline boundaries he abided by ( his boundaries were still way beyond the legal ones) She did things though that drew blood, all in the name of power and respect. ok this gets me a little wound up and I can feel it in my chest right now. what are you doing? I don't know you. and this is the internet. where I met the last woman by the way. I have to take a shower. al-anon in about 45 minutes.

thks for the response again

horace

August 14, 2005
5:32 pm
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Hi Horace

Thanks for your response. Please go and read rage, shame and the death of love.

Sorry about the N thread. Something went wrong.

My father is a N and my mother emotionally enmeshed with me. Used to dump everyday on me. Made me nuts.
My husbands mother (clinical psychologist) is a big N.
We have been in therapy together for about 18 months now. It has been very exiting to get to know oursleves.
My husband had a lot of fantasies. He could not connect to reality as it was too painful for him. I on the other hand is to realistic.
I have changed and so has he. He lost his fantasies and got them back again. This went on and on. He hated to admit the reality. He lived in his head.
The therapist said you must ask yourself is this a fantasie or a reality if he gets painful emotional thoughts. Mostly he saw it is a fantasy, say that I reject him.
In therapy when he got rid of his fantasies he also lost his libido. They are directly connected. He would use sex to feel better about himself and feels that I accept him.

Will post you again. Have lots to talk about It is now 11.31 at night here.
G

August 14, 2005
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that was an excellent article. I think I am in a pretty good place. I have therapy tomorrow. I talked about grieving the injured child in my alanon meeting. I can definately see that if I don't work on this while all these feelings are going on I will only come up with some new disfunctional way of relating to people. It just occurred to me that what I've been going through and the emotions I've been dealing with would be devastating to a child. That article also helped me to understand the blindsiding punishment I received from my ex - not to take it quite so personally. I got a handout during treatment a couple of years ago about toxic shame. It had a flowchart about negative beliefs and acting out behaviors, distorted thinking, and something else that I can't remember at the moment. What I did was figure out what my negative beliefs were --- I am damaged and worthless. I can't do anything right. I am a failure. what I've done is transform those negative beliefs into affirmations that I say every morning in my meditation. I am healing, I have value as me, I am doing the best I can, I am allowed to make mistakes, I choose to be happy today. It was interesting. The positive ones sounded goofy and silly, but the negative beliefs sounded (and still do) perfectly sensible. The positive ones now sound normal to me 2 years later. You know this is a slow road. I am better than I was, and if it weren't for the pain of this last relationship I wouldn't be doing anything about it. I mean I've been staying sober and going to therapy, but you know how you can get into a rut. I'm really working on some stuff now. I do hope for the best for her, but I have to accept that in one way she may have been right. It could have ended really ugly. It could have been my shame rage that had been activated instead of hers. and mine is something I just dont go near. I used to show it to people in the past in an effort to control them with fear, but you know that only works until you meet someone who is crazier than you or has less to lose. I appreciate being able to spew.

horace

August 15, 2005
3:26 am
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garfield9547
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Hi Horace

Cannot wait for my therapy tomorrow. It is wonderful to see if somebody moves forward. We have a combined session tomorrow.
At work now - talk agian later
Thank for replying

Garfield

August 15, 2005
2:22 pm
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Hi Horace
Just reading through your post again.
"the emotiona I,ve been dealing with would be devastating for a child:
Well said, I had to think about it. Made me angry to think of myself and my childhood.
What do you think of what they say, you marry your mother emotionally???
The way she programmed us etc

Garfield

August 15, 2005
2:39 pm
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kathygy
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As you work on yourself and get healthier you are more likely to marry a healthier verson of your mother who is willing to work through issues in a healthy way.

August 15, 2005
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Hi Kathy

I agree. unfortunately you marry when you are young and without experience. Emotionally you only mature in your late 30. SAD but true

Garfield

August 15, 2005
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I got more done today in therapy than I have in probably a year. I think the Al-anon meetings, writing it down for these posts, and reading that article helped a lot. I'm a little strung out from it right now. I was able to feel the feelings of a child and process it as and adult at the same time. Things aren't nearly as clear right now as it brought up a lot of emotion and I'm feeling pretty raw at the moment. I did want to mention something I read in the shame, rage, death of love article. It was talking about how some people react to their shameful feelings by appearing confident and needing to be the center of attention. This was a quality the top most pain producing women in my life have had in common. It is also my mother and myself, more so for both of us when we were younger. I do agree with you kathygy in that things will get better as I become healthier. I think I've been doing some cyber journaling of such, but it has been very powerful. ....and that late thirtys thing is great news g since I am in my late thirtys and single. I'm going to make some dinner. thanks for prodding me to share

horace

August 22, 2005
3:54 pm
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Hi Horace

I have decided to take a break from reading and site etc. I have become addicted to it and need to spend time on myself. I will be back some time in the future.

Good luck
G

August 22, 2005
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GOod luck, Garfield...thank you for all of the valuable advice/information you have given me! Hugs, EF

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