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Polyfidelity - issues in a non-traditional relationship
May 17, 2006
4:00 pm
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taj64
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Poly means many.

Hi Snow. Thanks for sharing that with us on the board. Though I am not "for" this type of relationship, I cannot judge either. For I was in a cheating type of relationship and I was the "other" woman. to me, this was compromising myself for a man who was unavailable to me yet strung me along and I compromised myself in order to keep him in my life. I became very codependent. I felt insecure, my self esteem lowered. So I think in order for this type of relationship to work, all parties must be agreeable and have high self esteem for it to work. It would not be my type of relationship. After being in the type of relatinship that I was in the past few years, I can only hope that I have a healthy monogomous relationship next time around, that is if I can get my self esteem back up.

May 17, 2006
6:27 pm
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bonni
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I have to confess that I'm very intrigued by the idea of swinging. Snow, I'm glad you shared your experience.

The whole polyamory thing makes sense, though for us, I don't know if we'd ACTUALLY have sex with other people, though we TALK plenty about it and it definitely enhances our sex life. Since the beginning of our marriage, we've always been open about when other people aroused us and made it part of our relationship. I don't feel like I am the only woman my husband should find attractive. I like flirting with other men. Telling him about it turns him on, and then WE have sex. We haven't had sex with anyone else outside the marriage, but we talk about swinging and threesomes. I don't think we'd do it, but we do enjoy talking about it. Its one of the things that work about our relationship. I totally and completely trust him. Which is probably why I've never had sex with anyone else since our marriage, I can't imaging trusting another man enough.

bonni

May 17, 2006
9:34 pm
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snowlover
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bonni...

It sounds as though perhaps you and your husband would enjoy going to an actual swing club. They are NOT what people think they are. There is the opportunity to see other couples doing, well...various activities, and they are VERY respectful places. Its not a free-for-all orgy as some would think.

Since the 2 of you are so close, and share this interst, it may be an option to explore. Just a suggestion.

Hugs....Snow

May 17, 2006
10:28 pm
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glittered when he walked
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OK to lighten things up a bit, I'm readinf these posts about polygamy, polyamorus, swinging, and I'm thinking...hell, i couldn't make marriage to one woman work..imagine the havoc wrought if I tried more than one. : )

May 17, 2006
11:08 pm
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free2choose
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You know, it boils down to "Different storkes for different folks."

I mean, if it floats your boat, GO FOR IT.

Snow, believe me, as a lesbian, I am judged EVERYDAY! Eventually, your skin gets tough. You do not need to be ashamed of what you like, that is your choice!

I do feel for the women here who have felt pain and heartache due to thier partners insensitivity. That is the only thing that I do not like about this situation.

I can closely related to Thumpkin, I too feel i am often caught between my desires to experiment and my feelings and fears. It is confusing, and when you are in a relationship where both people have the insecurities, the fears, talking and negotiating this type of thing is not at all easy!

Good luck to you all, no one here is judged by ME!

Hugs,

Erica

May 18, 2006
12:27 am
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Mardoll
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POd - "I just don't understand what happened to happily ever after"

Polyamory isn't what happened to "Happily Ever After". Life is what happened. Characters in fairy tales live "Happily Ever After" because the story ends right after the wedding, or right after a particular problem is solved. It was never realistic to portray life as though you will only ever encounter one major problem, and will be happy forever after it's solved. Nor is it realistic to portray life for women as being solved by a man showing up and being willing to marry her.

Not that monogamy isn't still a perfectly reasonable lifestyle that also requires honesty and trust, but that's got nothing to do with it.

Perhaps a major question here is "Trust them to do what?"

"When someone promises you to be your everything,and you theirs,I guess it's just me,that's what I expected."

Nobody can honestly promise to be everything to anyone. It's not realistic, and it's unfair to offer the impossible, or to expect it. That doesn't necessarily mean that the solution is Polyamory, but that does mean that if you have sworn vows that aren't realistic you are setting eachother and yourselves up for dissapointment.

Matteo - "I am sure that for many it is much easier to water it down among few other people and not to have to invest so much emotionally."

I'm not going to ask you what makes you assume that "waters it down" because it's obvious what the assumption is. I will tell you, however, that in my experience it does no such thing. Neither love nor the intensity of attachment is limited in this manner. Time, on the other hand, is always a limiting factor. There are many more questions involved in polyamory than simply "can you share?"

"I am puzzled with your motivation behind choosing this topic for a discussion, if it works well for you already and if you are convinced about it."

Somebody asked me to elaborate in someone else's support thread, and I didn't want to hijack the conversation.

thumkin - "My b/f has done the whole please just try it once if you dont like it we'll never do it again (on the swinging)."

That's bull. If it's not worth repeating, it's not worth doing once, IMHO.

on my way - "Fidelity has only ONE meaning and that is ONE. did you all make up this word or something?"

No, I didn't. The definition of "Fidelity" is "Faithfulness to obligations, duties, or observances." What, exactly that means depends on what, exactly, your obligations, duties, and observances ARE. One of the aspects of polyamory is a concious effort to make and keep specific agreements. There is nothing about the word that requires "monogamy" to be one of those agreements.

That "Fidelity" has only one meaning to *you* I can accept. That you are aware of your own desires and live your life accordingly is wonderful. That somebody else has a different set of desires and choices is not an issue if it's not you they're involved with, eh?

Snow - "The correct word is polyamory."

No, the words mean different things. Within the poly community, "Polyfidelity" refers, usually, to a closed relationship of 3 or more people. Sometimes, however, it is used to point out the above - that "fidelity" means keeping your promises, whatever they may be.

Glittered - "hell, i couldn't make marriage to one woman work..imagine the havoc wrought if I tried more than one. : )"

Hee! A common and important point! Polyamory is not a way to save a broken relationship. If you can't manage one, no, you certainly can't manage more than one.

-----------

Look, folks, I'm not here to recruit. Somebody asked me to elaborate, so I did. This is how I live my life, I didn't say that's how you should live yours! I'm not insane - I know this works for a very small percentage of the population. Even if only for cultural reasons, most people fully expect their relationships to function within monogamous perameters. If there is one thing I have learned from the poly community its that monogamous relationships require just as much clear communication and trustworthiness as a poly relationship. Be aware of the assumptions you are making with eachother. Talk about them. Make sure you're actually agreeing to the same set of relationship rules. There's nothing wrong with the agreement being that of monogamy, but make sure you're clear on just what that means to you.

If you're the sort who enjoys this, and can handle it, go for it. If you're the sort who enjoys monogamy and can handle it, go for it. Do what you will - just be *aware* of your relationships, that's all!

May 18, 2006
12:35 am
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Mardoll
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Just to be clear on my not being the inventor of the word "polyfidelity":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P.....lyfidelity
http://www.sexuality.org/l/pol.....lart2.html

May 18, 2006
1:02 am
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Mardoll,
Just to be clear on something with you.I am not normally a judgmental person.I would sooner cry than to look at you.To be quite honest,I wish I'd never posted to this thread,as it is an all too painful topic that I am bombarded by every day.I am fully aware that my relationshipp has gone straight to the crapper because of the smut and crap that is peddled to men on this screen.The act,name or actions of polyamory being one of them.I am a good wife...attentive,personable,hard working,and attractive.There should have never been a time for this lifestyle or a fantasy of this lifestyle being ok in this house.
Saying that more than 2 people can have a "closed" relationship sounds ridiculous to me.I really don't care if you invented the word,but I wish someone could invent a way for this crap to go back into the abyss of time and not exist at all.

May 18, 2006
1:17 am
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Mardoll
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POd - I would offer you virtual hugs, but I'm not sure if you're up for it from me.

"Closed" means something very specific in this context, but no, it doesn't mean "monogamy". What it means is that everybody involved in the relationship has to be ok with anyone new entering in, or else that there is an agreement that nobody new will be added in.

Personally I believe temptation is an excuse for misbehavior, not a reason. There are plenty of men out there who are quite content to monogamous relationships - My father is a fabulous example. The existence of pornography and polyamorous people within his proximity hasn't ruined his relationship with his wife because he has integrity to the promises he has made, and very little interest in the topics, access or no.

There's an argument that says that if a person is only good because they have no opportunity to be bad, they're not really good at all. I don't completely agree with this - stress changed behavioral patterns tremendously - but I do agree that mere access to an idea isn't all it takes for that idea to be a problem for the people who hear about it.

If anything, an in-depth understanding of an idea usually takes the fantastic shine off of something. I do NOT mean that your husband should go out and make an ass of himself with as many women as he can find, but I do mean that polyamory isn't any shinier than any other kind of relationships to the people who live it daily.

Frankly, if your husband cannot maintain his promises within the relationships his already has (assuming they are humanly possible to maintain) there is nothing at all to reccommend him to more of them!

I'm very sorry this has been used as an excuse to hurt you. That's complete bull, and you shouldn't have to deal with it. It sounds like there's a lot more going on there than just exposure to a shiny idea, and he needs to own up to what's really going on with him.

Besides all that, it reflects poorly on those of us who are doing just fine, thanks.

May 18, 2006
1:22 am
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Mardoll
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POd - sorry for the double post, but I just thought of something else.

You do understand that no amount of wonderfulness on your part will make your husband something he's not, right? I mean yes, you deserve a husband who can give you more of what you need than this fellow seems to, but his ability is not a function of your goodness.

His *willingness* may, possibly, be affected by what he gets out of the relationship, but if he's taking you for granted now, that's not likely to change by you simply continuing to be a "good wife". I hope you two can open up the lines of communication and figure out how to improve things. Polyamory isn't it, and shouldn't be used as a distraction from real problems and solutions.

May 18, 2006
1:34 am
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I am not angry with you,Mardoll,or anyone who practices polyamory or what ever.I am(and sorry if this sounds victimy),a devastated wife who has no concept of what is so bad about me?I was good enough to sleep with for 15 years,good enough to marry,good enough to birth his 2(bu the way)ENORMOUS babies,why can't I have at least a quarter of what I was promised.I was told I was gonna be the only woman in his life for the rest of his life,and I intended to hold that post.I just don't think I can anymore.And you're right about the integrity.He uses excuses to manage the reasons behind why he does these things to me.He has no integrity behind any of the promises he made me,even about little things that really can exist.I am just sick and tired of being sick and tired.

May 18, 2006
1:47 am
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Mardoll
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Well, that does raise a question - If he's either unwilling or unable to be what you're looking for, why continue to subject yourself to that treatment? He's only half of the relationship, and you're the one who has control over your half. If it's not working it's as much your perogative as it is his to get up and find something better.

Like I said, it's not necessarily about how good you are, or aren't. No amount of you being good can force him to be something he's not willing and able to be. Why should he continue to benefit from your wifely services if you are no longer benefiting from his husbandly services?

May 18, 2006
2:51 am
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p.o'd,

Hi. I don't think I've posted you before. I was touched by your heartbreak at being true and faithful to your husband, and him being on the verge of? or actually done? cheating on you.

Rest assured that you did NOTHING to deserve it. Men sometimes get strange ideas about sex, and a lot of it is fueled by pornography. I don't know if he's into that or not.

So please don't trouble your sweet self wondering what you did to cause him to do this, or castigating yourself over things you think you might have done better. Women can be as sweet and loving as humanly possible, and they often are, but some men will take advantage of them for doing that. It's NOT your fault!!!

Seeker

May 18, 2006
2:58 am
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Mardoll,

I may have missed your answers to these questions earlier in your thread; if so, I apologize. I'm curious how this all works, this polyamory that you are involved with. Does your bf/husband tell you he wants to sleep with woman X, and you give him permission to do so? Does it also work the other way around, with you asking his permission to sleep with man Y?

Also, how many people are involved with this polyamory community? And, if you don't mind my asking, does your husband sleep with more women than you sleep with more men?

Maybe I shouldn't be asking. This whole thing is so new to me, and I am very curious how it works. I've always been too curious for my own good.

Seeker

May 18, 2006
4:59 am
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Mardoll
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Seeker -

I was sort of wondering when you'd drop by, considering I made the thread to talk to you. 😉

"Does your bf/husband tell you he wants to sleep with woman X, and you give him permission to do so? Does it also work the other way around, with you asking his permission to sleep with man Y?"

Boyfriend 😉 The short answer is "yes". More accurately - and this is within my primary relationship, specifically - when either of us is interested in a new partner, we have rules about how involved we can get before introducing the new person to eachother, and allowing an opportunity for veto.

My boyfriend has only ever vetoed one person, and I wasn't interested in getting involved with my ex again anyway, so the point was moot. I believe I have only asked him to approve of maybe 4-5 people over the 6 years we've been together, and I didn't actually end up dating all of them. Because of how I handle relationships, I tend to ask way before I am actually involved with someone who interests me - I usually get together with guys I've been friends with for quite a while.

On the other hand, he tends to fall into relationships somewhat more easily than I do, and has asked my oppinion of maybe a dozen girls. I have vetoed a couple of them over the years - sometimes permanently, sometimes pending the condition of their other relationships. One girl got herself permanently vetoed by lying to him about our safety rules. Nothing came of it, but she betrayed our trust, so while she's still a friend, they'll never be lovers again. He's actually asked me to please veto more because I'm just better at spotting immaturity or emotional problems and psychological imbalances than he is. 😉 Generally what I'll do is give him as detailed an assessment of my instincts when I meet a girl, but I only veto her if I think it would be really unhealthy for our relationship if he got involved with her, or if I don't trust her to follow our rules.

"Does your [boyfriend] sleep with more women than you sleep with more men?"

We have both had multiple outside relationships. If you tally by individual people, yes, he's had more secondaries than I have had. But I think if you tally by time spent, I've spent more time on secondary relationships because I tend to be much more emotionally involved and each relationship lasts somewhat longer. So it comes out about even in the end.

I suspect from your questions that you're wondering after the fairness of the situation? One of our basic rules is that the unbendable rules apply equally to both of us. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. What's dangerous for him is equally dangerous for me. For the most part I'm more conservative than he is, so a lot of our rules come about by me thinking hard, asking around, researching consequences, etc. and then proposing a plan to him, and he generally agrees to whatever I come up with. That's an underlying assumption - for this to work, whichever of us is more conservative about something has to figure out what they're comfortable with, and then we go from there.

Now there are a couple places where we have guidelines set up on top of the rules where my needs for him differ from his needs for me, and we agree to find a balance that actually functions for each of us, rather than try to find a single answer that's always right regardless of the conditions. But those are regarding emotional needs, not physical safety.

For example: Because so much of my life is about an hour's drive away thanks to my religious activities, and because I'm significantly more social than he is, I spend a lot more time away from the house than he does. So one of the guidelines for me is that I should try not to spend more than two days in a row over at my secondary boyfriend's house. Obviously if I'm not safe to drive, it's okay to call home and inform him of the situation, but I try to keep that to a minimum, because it's rude to abuse a loophole.

Since my primary's current secondary is long-distance, he gets fewer visits with her, but they're longer, so she's welcome to him for as long as she's in town.

On the other hand it's very important to me to know ahead of time how many people will be in the house when he's invited someone over, so that I can make sure there are enough beds for everyone. I have a lot of emotional buttons surrounding the issue of having enough beds without having to kick somebody out of the house, wheras he's more relaxed, and willing to do things like find a luxurious hotel to splurge on for a night when his secondary is in town. So he knows to give me a lot more notice than I have to give him, because he's just not as anxious about it as I am.

"Also, how many people are involved with this polyamory community?'

Well, I have no idea how many people are in the overall community. More than I can easily count, anyway. I would guess a minimum of a few hundred around here - I live in a major metropolitan area in a liberal state. My community is very blended - it's not poly folks hanging out with poly folks and avoiding monogamous folks. For the most part my social groups are not based on sexuality or gender, so it's not safe to assume that any given person has any particular set of preferences, assumptions, and gender identity. You learn to observe patterns, and you learn to ask politely after someone's interests if you are interested. And you learn really fast to take a hint when "no" is the answer!

May 18, 2006
7:11 am
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Hi Snow,
We actually talked about it last night and it ended quite well. I still don't think I could actually be that intimate with another person or bring another actual person into our bed. We seem to really enjoy talking about it and who knows? maybe years from now we might.

Now, we do have some problems in our relationship, but as best I can tell, talking openly about this stuff seems to be making us both incredibly happy and very satisfied. Our problems are related to our military obligation and not the actual underlying relationship. Neither of us want our lives to be like this, with him having to leave every few years and my having to be a single mom. I'm really angry and bitter about it, but i do love my dh. We started talking about & enjoying our fantasies about other people years before the deployment that broke the camel's back. It makes me feel better that there's not something wrong with us for enjoying our sexual quirks together.

bonni

May 18, 2006
8:20 am
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Im sorry but I find this terrible. Marriage is just that for two people. You don't go to the altar and say I take you, you and you. someone along the line the marriage is not working for two people when they swing. it is because the two people in the marriage want their cake and eat it too. The institution of marriage is meant for two. That is what i believe. Im so pained by having been involved with a married man. It literally destroyed me. And when I do recover, I will never want a man like this ever. I now hate the man that I fell for. I get a sick feeling about him for what he did. I get a sick feeling in my pit to hear some of you on here talkign about swinging. Those are my feelings and sorry if Im harsh but I feel I have to be honest and not all of us out there agree with it. My next choice in life will be with one man and a man who chooses one woman and respects and honors her by being faithful.

May 18, 2006
10:15 am
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Mardoll,

Thanks for your reply. I'm going to digest it more before attempting to reply back. You mention your religious activities. Would you mind if I ask what religion you belong to? Polyamory, as you describe it, doesn't sound like it would be endorsed by any religion I've ever heard of.

Seeker

May 18, 2006
10:33 am
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Hi Mardoll,
I was just about to ask you the same question that seeker has asked. You mentioned to me on another thread which we were conversing, that you were studying to be in "the clergy". I too am interested to know which religion you practice.

omw

May 18, 2006
7:48 pm
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taj - "Those are my feelings and sorry if Im harsh but I feel I have to be honest and not all of us out there agree with it."

No worries. I'm a lot more used to people with your feelings than you are used to people with mine. I'm certainly not offended that you want and need monogamy. There's nothing wrong with monogamy, for goodness sakes, although I dissagree vehemently that what you need must be applied to people outside your relationship. If you believe marriage must mean one and only one thing then by all means, do not be involved in a marriage that isn't defined that way!

Just because some or even many folks do something doesn't mean everybody has to.

Seeker, OMW - I'm pagan. Specifically, my primary focus is on the Scandinavian/Germanic gods and traditions. We call ourselves "Heathen", though most folks I know use the word "Asatru", which means "True to the Aesir" ("Aesir" being the main group of gods in Scandinavian mythology). I don't use the word "Asatru" because I focus more on the Vanir, which is a different group within the same mythology, who are very life/nature/fertility oriented. The religious organization that I am taking clergy training towards ordainment from is an umbrella organization that provides a structure for services and legality to a number of pagan groups. Mostly wiccan covens, but also some reconstructionist groups like my "kindred", and a Helenic group (Greek reconstructionists).

May 18, 2006
8:08 pm
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why?

May 18, 2006
8:35 pm
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Mardoll
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Why what?

May 18, 2006
8:44 pm
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Why do you beleive as you do?

May 18, 2006
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Mardoll,

Very interesting. I was invited to a weekend retreat last summer by a friend, and about half of the 75 or so participants were pagans. They mostly followed the old English pagan gods.

They had a ceremony that involved a "green man" (a man dressed in and painted green), who represented nature and led people through ceremonies. There were chants to the gods of the north, south, east, and west. There was a huge circle of people that walked first one way to pay homage to their ancestors, and then the other way to honor their future descendants.

They built a sweat lodge (a steam bath) and spent about two hours in there going through certain rituals.

Do you do any of these or similar ceremonies?

Also, are your polyamory and pagan groups the same, or separate from each other?

Seeker

May 18, 2006
11:05 pm
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First, I would emphasize that polyamory and swinging are not the same thing at all. Swinging is about recreation. Polyamory is about love.

To dispense with the idea that this poly thing is just something that men "inflict" on women, consider the following book.

Lesbian Polyfidelity

Some people believe that marriage ought only to be between a man and a woman. Other people believe that marriage ought to be only betwwen a man and a man. It takes every kind of people.

I think marriage is for people who believe in and are willing to accept a 50% chance of divorce in the first 2 years. People on average just do not seem to be very good at comittment, or very good at marriage. It's not like you can take it as a major in college.

We really are a "me/my/mine" culture and therefore polyamory is both threatening and difficult or impossible for most people. The statistics of relationships and marriage suggest that most people are not able to sustain intimacy with even ONE person. It is to be expected then that polyamory is not for everyone.

It is important to recognize that for many who intentionally engage polyamory, they do so with the explicit intention of growing and developing themselves as spiritual beings.

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