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Please, I need help.
December 4, 2003
10:39 am
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Wanttobewell
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Hi all, I've not told very much about myself except a little here and there in responding to other threads. I need wise counsel, and my next counseling appt. isn't until the 17th. This is going to be long, so if you don't have the time or inclination for it, I understand. I'm a 50-year-old female. Left my parents' home at 18 to get married, totally ignorant of just about everything. Got introduced to pot and cocaine by hubby #1. Being codependent and a people-pleaser, I was at first shocked when I found out he was smoking but sure didn't want to lose "my prize." Therefore, joined right in there. Was modestly overweight in high school, just enough that I didn't get dates, except for dream boy. Had a daughter after five years of marriage thinking that might slow down the partying, etc. Right. After a few years, he decided he'd like to wife swap, have group sex, etc. Couldn't go along with that (at least I do have a few boundaries). Over time, that destroyed my love for him. After baby was born, I lost weight, began working out and, for the first time in my life, was attractive to other men. I soon had an affair with my husband's best friend. I'm not proud of this, but that's what I did. That somehow gave me the "strength?" to get a job, an apartment, take my daughter who was 3 at the time and be on my own. How wonderfully happy I was. That marriage lasted 8 years. But, I forgot how to be a good mother and was mostly interested in handing my child off to my parents and going out. The regrets I have over that will never leave.

Then came prize #2. I will try to condense this one. He was real cute, had a good job, one daughter from previous marriage. Turned out, momma never made #2 be accoutable for ANYTHING he had ever done wrong. It was always someone else's fault, always. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, and it took me a long time to figure this out because she would lie for him, said his first wife needed psychiatric care because she did'n't want to be married to him anymore, etc. I bought into all of this and agreed, of course, because all that was important as far as I was concerned was that they like me. Then came more cocaine and more. I was in my late 20's during this time. So in March 1982, we marry. In May 1982, he's headed out the door with 1/2 kilo of cocaine, me telling him not to do it, him telling me he knew exactly what he was doing, and I was crazy. It was a set-up of course. Convicted of 7 years, did 3-1/2, claimed to have found Jesus. I did send him separation papers during this time, but he claimed he never got them. He was calling my mother every chance he got after I sent the separation papers, telling her how sorry he was, contemplating suicide, etc. Mom's even worse than I am about believing anything you tell her. She works on me until she has me believing he's sorry, he's better, he'll be this and that and that doves might even fly out of his ass when he got home he'd gotten so good. I fell for it, waited on him. Accidentally got pregnant, had a daughter. I thought everything was fine. I went back to work, and he got a job doing flooring with a
straight friend of his, who was a really good guy. He'd come by every payday to get my check so he could pay the bills. By that time, I had a baby, a full-time job, an older child, and his oldest daughter came to live with us. I was busy and trustng, took him at his word. He found a beautiful place in the country, big pond, lots of land, a dream. Momma footed the down payment. We moved. House was owner financed. One month later, the owner called wanting to know why the house payment hadn't been deposited. Hubby told me that the owner was "crazy" and that he had made that deposit, blah, blah...Then little by little, things started disappearing, i.e., jewelry that I thought I had misplaced, Like I said,,I was busy. Then, the vacuum cleaner which he said he forgot and left it on a job. It didn't come back. Long story short, he emptied my bank account, pawned my jewelry, stole from his own parents, stole from his children (pawned the little one's toys) and even when confronted with the fact that his picture was taken at the drive thru window, still said he didn't do it. Emptied his older daughter's bank account, who by that time had 2 kids of her own and was barely getting by. His mother begged her own grandchild not to press charges against him, but she did anyway. Just so you know I don't have a halo, I was still doing cocaine occasionally, not often, but occasionally. Then came crack. Didn't take long to see where that was headed. So I stopped doing it. Problem was that he couldn't stop. Everything was gone. We had no car, house was being foreclosed on, two oldest daughters had quit school and ran away with some guys in their junior year. All was chaos. I searched his old van and found pawn tickets for everything we'd ever owned, lots of his parents' stuff, kid's toys. My little girl in second grade wrote about her favorite toy, a jeep that she could ride around in, being in the "fix-it" shop. That was always his excuse. The lawnmower broke, in the shop. They can't get the part for awhile, etc. When I confronted him, he attacked me for invading his privacy. I left and with the help of friends found a place to live in my daughter's school district so she wouldn't have to be uprooted from her friends. My dad helped me get a car. I was happy. When my daughter had softball games, he would call and tell her that daddy didn't have a way to come see her play because mommy took everything and to ask mommy to come get him so he could see his little girl play ball. A master at manipulation is putting it mildly. If I said no, that meant I was just being mean to daddy. So I'd take a real deep breath and go get him. He'd just chat away as if nothing was going on,,,status quo, while I'd be in a seething rage. Even at away games, he'd somehow get a ride to a corner gas station, knowing we'd have to pass there, and be waiting on the corner. She'd say,,there's daddy. Seething again, I felt I had no choice but to pick him up, him looking all pititful and making his little girl feel sorry for him,,,more manipulation. This is only the tip of the iceburg of him manipulating and hiding behind his little girl and "momma."

Then came husband #3. My first childhood sweetheart. Also an alcoholic. He had bought a house before we met up again out of daughter's school district. We went to see the house. She was all excited because it was new; she had her own room; we played games together and things were going very well when all of a sudden what comes out of her mouth? Mom, do you think I'm going to give up my friends for a room of my own, my own computer, etc. These are just "things." These were words from her father and momma's mouth. There is no other explanation and is exactly what they would say. She became so distraught that I made a very bad decision. Oh,,,momma had rented a house for baby boy (BB) in her school district. I told her she could stay. Worst mistake, I think, I ever made in my life, but my life's not over yet. She was 11 at the time.

He found fool #3, an R.N., his first childhood sweetheart, and who momma always loved. Talked to fool #3 last night. Found out that BB had been in jail for two weeks; her car had been repossessed, bank account emptied (his picture at the drive thru, again he denied), all of her jewelry gone to the tune of $60,000 worth of jewelry that is. She found the pawn tickets. It was an instant replay of my experience. My daughter, his momma, and current girlfriend all knew he had been in jail for two weeks but no one told me. Daughter didn't because she was afraid I'd make her live with me. Girlfriend didn't tell me (I don't know why), and momma sure wasn't going to tell me. Momma's very sick now. I called his parents yesterday and his oldest daughter answered. She said his parents had no heat, no food, nothing. I felt so bad that I immediately ran to the grocery store, bought groceries, and took to them. They did have a few space heaters. They had no food except what I brought. They still didn't tell me BB was in jail. Girlfriend finally bailed him out last night, saying she was senidng him back to momma. I talked with her for a long time. She asked me about sometimes his eyes would be really wide, and he'd look out the window, pace back and forth, etc. CRACK!!!!

My daughter stayed with my mom and dad night before last and last night. I called her this morning, and she seemed to be in good spirits. Said she had talked to Pam (dad's girlfriend) last night but had not talked to dad. I wonder what lies he will tell her. I talked to my mom this morning and asked how to protect my daughter (she'll be 17 in January) from her father's manipulation and lies. She told me that my daughter is a lot smarter than I knew; she was no dummy; and she knew what her dad was about. My dad, her dad and Pam, live out of her school district. Her dad took her to school for awhile, while he had Pam's car. But that got repossessed you know. His "momma" finally bought him an old junker, broke down now of course. My dad says my daughter will be living with him, and he will be taking her to school. He is 73 years old. School is 28 miles one way. Says he will not be swayed on this. My husband says for me to make her come here and live. Pam says she will take her to school the few days of the week she can. My husband says if I have any backbone and want any respect in his eyes, I will make her come here. She hates his guts. He's never had a child. She's liable to do anything if I make her come here to live. I don't know what to do. Well I do know I think. I believe it would be best for her to come here, but my husband could absolutly not fall off the wagon because when he does, he goes on anywhere from 2-4 day binges and takes him 3-4 days to get over it. Can't expose her to that. Told him so. Told me not to worry about that, he was through drinking. Famous last words. He's not going to AA, is not in any kind of program, but did finally break down and went to the doctor (never admitting to an alcohol problem), saying he was anxious and depressed, which of course he was. The doc put him on Lexapro and Xanax, and it has made a big difference in him. But I'm still afraid he'll drink again. My daughter has told my dad that my husband is nothing but a drunk. Now my dad hates my third husband almost as much as the second one. Correction. He just dislikes him. At the end of my second marriage, he told my crack boy he was going to cut him up for fish bait. Crack boy turned on me and said...see what YOU did,,,YOU made your father hate me...(no accountability for own actions, of course). Should I make my daughter come live with me? I just feel that no matter what I do, it will be wrong.

I forgot to mention that a trusted uncle molested me when I was 9. Took until I was 11 before I told a much-trusted cousin and his wife, who is an R.N., about it, and then he molested me too. I'm sure she knew. No one mentioned the molestation which consisted of him taking me to the bedroom and running his hands all in my panties and over my crotch, no penetration from the "trusted" cousin. However, I was reminded repeatedly from the both of them that I "matured" physically too young, subtly indicating that somehow this was wrong, and that I was bad because of this.

What a mess I am, and what a mess I have created for my daughter.

I can't even think straight. I'm praying for guidance. I can't concentrate. My mind seems to be a blank. Please guys,,,help me on this one. (W)

December 4, 2003
11:11 am
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Zinnie
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Dear Want,

First of all a big HUG to you, just to give you strength and let you know that you are loved.

Your youngest daughter? For her sake, and yours, let her live with her Grandfather. Your Mom is right, she is a lot smarter than folks are giving her credit for. Trust me, this baby see's Daddy exactly for what he is. She also sounds like at this age she knows not only his manipulation and lies, but that of his Mother too.

First of all, congratulations for having the where with all to get off of drugs. Kudo's to you, it is a hard road. Keep your self strong.

So, you have made some mistakes in your life. Who hasn't? Well, of course your first husband - and hell my cousin too! He is the same thing, EVERYTHING IS EVERYONE ELSE'S FAULT! People like that lie so much, they do not really even know the truth. I honestly believe that they tell these whoppers and truely believe what they are saying.

Your husband that you are married to now? I'm glad he went to the Dr., but yes, unless he told the Dr. he has a drinking problem or was honest on his medical forms about how much he drinks daily then he will probably end up addicted to the Xanax, or begin drinking in conjunction with taking these medications.

You say he is not going to AA or in a program? How about you? Are you going to a program? Are you attending Al-Anon? The only person you can control is you.

Don't be so hard on yourself, you are bold and honest enough to see what your past mistakes have been, and get yourself clean. You obviously love your daughter enough to "give her up" essentially for the here and now to your Father for her sake and her own good. I know you are concerned because your Dad will be driving 60 miles a day for your daughter. It is HIS choice to do this, and that is good. It will be good for him, it will keep him busy and active. My husbands Uncle and Father are both in their 80's, and I get tired just watching them. They will live another 20 years easily. Why? They are happy, and keep busy.

I hope this has helped... here if you need to talk.

Love,

Zinnie

December 4, 2003
11:22 am
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mj
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Hugs Wanttobewell (W) for short 😉

It is your life sweetheart. What do you think you ought to do? Learn to trust yourself to find your answers. Making mistakes and learning from them is life.
If you make your own decisions, then at least you can live with them. Hugs

December 4, 2003
1:37 pm
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andypandy
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This is NOT a suggestion, but my first thought was....money, it's all about money...if it were me in that situation and I had lots of money, I would offer my children an escape and run away with only them to a far off place and start over cutting all ties to everyone but my immediate family.
Again, this is just what I would wish for. I'm sorry for your situation and the only thing you can do is take one day at a time...hey, speaking on that, which is a "step" have you considered going to some 12 step program? Maybe you can go with your daughter and try to salvage you and her.

December 4, 2003
4:37 pm
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Wanttobewell
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First of all, I thank you all so much for your support and caring.

Zinnie,,thank you. My dad does say on one hand that it gives him something to do, and I know him and mom get bored. On the other hand, it puts a lot on him. He is the most selfless human that I have ever known, not just to us but to anyone. He's just too good for his own good, if you know what I mean. I feel that he has to take up my slack because I made yet another poor choice in moving too far away to take my daughter to school. The guilt of that is not something that I can even put into words. Guilt consumes me to my very soul. Due to the poor choices I've made in my life, being so codependent that nothing else mattered except a man who would show me some attention, I have ruined lives. Is that overstating? Am I just so self-centered again that I only think of me? Then my husband tells me in order to gain his respect, i MUST make her come live with me. I love my daughter. She's bright and beautiful, and I love her so much. I don't want her to suffer anymore because of me. I feel so low-down and stupid. I can't seem to stop crying.

Zinnie, I'm not in any program, not Al-Anon, though it has been suggested to me. As far as being in a drug program, well, I haven't done any cocaine in over five years. I have thought about doing it. But I won't. Even if I did want to that badly, I wouldn't know how to go about getting it because I separated myself from all of my friends who used it long ago. I read and heard that was the only way to get off it, and that was true in my case.

Zinnie, my husband has not told his doctor about his alcohol problem. He would never even go to the doctor until about a year ago. I will take credit for that, though. He himself told me that he wanted to be better for me, but don't you think he has to want to be better for himself first? I don't think he'll make it without some type of program. But I can't make him go, though I have told him many times I just don't think you can do it on your own. Sooner or later, he will "forget" about how sick it makes him, and he will fall.

Zinnie, I thank you so much for your insight and suggestions. I know it's my dad's choice. At the same time, I can't help but feel if it weren't for me, he wouldn't have to make this choice, and no one can deny that. Your help is much appreciated. I tried not to get too emotional on my thread or my on my responses, but like I said, I can't stop crying. You're a good friend. Thank you again.

MJ,,,thank you. I know exactly what you mean. It's just that I have made so many bad choices, I'm afraid to make anymore. Right now my whole life has been bad choices, and I'm 50. You'd think I'd know something by now, but I don't. Again, to me it sounds like I'm just concerned with me, but I don't mean to sound that way. I just don't want to screw things up for my loved ones anymore. Thanks to me and my poor choices, both of my daughters have suffered. Yet I keep harping on my pain and how badly it makes me feel. Thank you for your support MJ. You make a difference.

Andypandy,,thank you,too...You can believe, my friend, that if I had the money, that is exactly what I would do. I think. But I don't have that luxury. My youngest wouldn't go even if I did. All she wants is to go to school with her friends until she graduates. She's a junior now and has gone to school with the same kids since kindergarten. So I can't blame her for that.

Thanks to all of you for responding to me. I love you all.....(W)

December 4, 2003
4:51 pm
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mj
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When I chose to go to Al-Anon it was one of the best choices I made for myself....I started at AA.
Hugs W

December 4, 2003
5:02 pm
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unhappy camper
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wanttobewell
You are such a glutton for punishment. So co-dependent. I'm sorry that life played out like that for you.

The biggest struggle of all I find is thinking of yourself as a whole person. The words in the toxic love post "we are not halves" really effects me.

Did you ever consider that you were not a half who needed to find the other half in a man? Forget for the moment the wanting/needing itimacy with a partner. Just think of you, alone at the computer right now, you, you are not a half. You are complete. A complete person.

Pairing up with another person should be with two complete people. Not two halves, broken, needy, raw.

First of all, think positively about yourself as a whole human being. Then consider how your relationships are abnormal because you consider yourself half empty. Find your other half.

Then you can be a whole person for yourself, your family, and then you can face the defective men you choose. You will cease to need them to live. They are not your batteries that you need to run on.

Love yourself. You will resist and refuse for as long as it takes until you stop resisting and believe.

You see, when you are able to live alone, be happy, be strong, then you can match up with another healthy person to make a good team. Both being good team players. Not an show-off star who wants it all for himself.

When you are healthy you will choose a healthy mate. You have to sacrifice companionship for now. Being alone is not a shame to bear. It's a prize for a wounded person.

December 4, 2003
5:41 pm
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Wanttobewell
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Unhappy Camper,,,yes, I realize how codependent I am. I have been alone in the past, twice actually, and didn't mind it a bit, I thought. I felt happy when I was living on my own. But I know that you are right. I've just a couple of months ago found a good therapist who can help me. i'm a glutton for punishment, I know. Right now though, I feel panicked, sad, and trapped, but I know it is a prison of my own choosing. I'm going to work on it. I don't believe things "played out." I made these things happen and only I can fix them if it isn't too late. Oh, hell, I don't even know what I'm trying to say. But thank you for your input. I very much appreciate it. W

December 4, 2003
9:54 pm
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whtdaises
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Wow, what a story wanttobewell, I have to make this short because my 6 year old just informed me that love is better then writing and I should be laying down with her........man they are just too smart. Being alone scares me because I feel like I will never be ready to be healthy with someone, I will never learn to love the right way. Every other man besides the one that I am obsessed with seems like a dork or there is something wrong with them...I am afraid that I will always be alone and I do not know how to leave the fear. I will write more tomorrow so as to escape the guilt trip about love. She deserves me right now. whtdaises

December 4, 2003
11:04 pm
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Zinnie
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Hi W,

I understand what you are saying about your Dad. If it will help to appease your guilt, you might offer him gas money for his expenses. I know you feel like you are taking advantage of him, but as a parent he is only trying to help you, and help your daughter. So, please look at it like that. It sounds to me like he will enjoy having this to do, and it will also help your daughter by having a positive male role model in her daily life.

As far as your husband thinking you need to "make" your daughter live with you. He has no children right? HA! Try making a teenager do something/anything they are not wanting to do, especially dealing with a step-parent, and him having a problem with alcohol and you are looking to construct a bomb worthy of Timothy McVeigh.

If I were in your shoes, I would CALMLY tell him "honey, I know you are trying to help, and I appreciate the kindness and generousity that you are showing to me and my daughter by wanting her to come and live here. But, for all involved, including in the best interest in OUR marriage, it is best that she live with my parents." That way, you are telling him no, but you are softening the blow, AND giving him strokes for being "kind and generous."

I agree with MJ, go to an Al-Anon meeting, they also do wonders for co-dependents. Or, as you have had struggles in the past, but you beat it on your own, again YEAH! - perhaps go to an AA meeting and take your husband with you. You can do this, but then it is his choice whether or not to go.

Don't beat yourself up so much. You had the courage to get out of two bad marriages, and at least this one is trying. Regarding him going to the Dr., honey NO man likes to go. Let me tell you a story here...

My husband. I love him, and can write pages and pages about him and the goodness, kindness, generousity, love and caring he has given me over the last 14 years. But... he would not go to the Dr. We got to talking and he said he had not had a physical since he was 17 - he was 35 at the time. Anyway, he stepped on a rusty nail down at the farm, and it went through his boot sole. So I tell him "you have to go to the Dr. for a tetnus shot." He replies "no, I had one when I was a kid." Yes that is what he said.

At that time our family Dr. had weekend hours. So, on a Saturday morning I told him I had to go for a quick test, and if he would give me a ride, I would buy him breakfast. So, we get there and they give me all these forms to fill out. Now remember he has not been to the Dr. in forever, so he does not question all of these forms that I'm filling out. Anyway, here comes the nurse and she says "Mr. Zinnie, come on back." He was reading a book that he had brought, and he looks up and says "oh, my wife has the appointment, but it's on my insurance." She says "oh no... you are here for you!"

If looks could kill I would have been laying dead on the floor in the Dr.'s office. Now for the funny part. He ended up liking the Dr. and being really comfortable with him. So, at least now he will go! Gooney man.

Keep us posted, and I hope something I have said has helped in some way.

Love,

Zinnie

December 5, 2003
7:56 am
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Wanttobewell
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Dear whtdaises,,,your 6-year-old is just a little bundle of love. When mine were babies and up to the age they didn't want me to do it, I would lie down with them, read to them, or make up stories for them. They both especially loved it when I made up the stories, and I come from a story-telling family in my dad and his dad. They really could spin a yarn. Those were such sweet, loving, and innocent years for them and for me despite which butthead I was with. They were the bright lights in my life and still are.

I know exactly what you're talking about when it comes to being alone versus another loser. I don't believe some folks know that I am just beginning at 50 to deal with myself and what got me to this point. I'm sorry, but I don't remember if you are with someone now. Are you? If so, how is it going. Sorry, but I just don't remember.

I just break down writing this. I'm not very emotionally stable right now. I go from feeling nothing to breaking down. I feel so alone, yet I know I'm not. This has been going on for several days now.

I just think of what your little girl said, and it reminds me so much of my youngest when she was that age in having the ability to jolt me right out of what I was doing at the time to join her. I feel as if I have lost a dear one to death, though that isn't true. I don't know how much longer I can deal with this. Thank you so much for your support. I can't put into words how much I appreciate it.

I have been binge eating too. Not every day, but I'm out of control now at times. My counseler said not many people would admit to binge eating. I know it makes me feel ashamed, so it must be for others too, guess that's why. Thank you again..:) W

Dear Zinnie, I wish I could have been there to see the look on hubby's face. You're right about me getting out of two bad marriages, but it took getting to the bottom to do it. I failed to mention I think that the 2nd lasted 14 years, so it's not like I don't try. This will be 5 years in April, and he is trying. Last night he cooked dinner, fixed his own lunch for the next day, brought me coffee. I didn't even know how to react, but I thanked him and told him I appreciated it. Why do men want some type of grand display of gratitude when they do things they should be doing anyway? I don't mean he should cook dinner every night, but he should be fixing his own lunch, taking his own dirty underwear to the hamper, etc. Maybe I'll rent a stripper to thank him. Wonder if that would be enough appreciation to show, as he would surely LOVE that.... :)).

Last night he said I should go ahead and tell my daughter that she would be going with us to the mountains this Christmas (we alternate the holiday with families, and his live in the western mountains of North Carolina). I've never been able to get her to go with us anytime up there much less Christmas, so she's never met his family, just has seen pictures. I can see tying her up and putting her in the car to take her. What a lovely holiday that would be had by all!!! I did tell him that I knew he was trying to be helpful,but.....He just stood there and looked at me and walked away. I know he's trying to help, but he just doesn't get it. I will take your advice though about that.

Your advice about my dad was helpful too. You sound so good and wise, as you all do who have taken the time to listen and respond to me. I can't tell you what a lifeline you all are.

I don't know how you all feel about me really opening up here, and sometimes I think maybe I've gone too far and made others uncomfortable. If so, I apologize. Sometimes I feel I'm so selfish. Thank you again so very much. W

December 5, 2003
8:41 am
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Wanttobewell
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Dear friends, I know this is going to sound so trivial. I just went out to feed the birds and put food out for strays. The two bowls used for strays at the edge of the woods were both filled to the tops with bird seed. I have no memory whatsoever of doing this. It had to be yesterday. I felt very strange when I saw that. Am I so far gone I don't remember things I've done? Apparently. Has this ever happened to any of you guys? Thanks, W

December 5, 2003
10:08 am
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whtdaises
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It sounds to me that your numbness is effecting your quality of life, not good. It is hard to wake up with the questions of "what is this all for?" If only we could erase our brain content and start over. Wisdom is our gift from all that we have survived, do what you are doing and seek out and help others with your great amount of wisdom because, I think that is why God choose people like you and I to become wise. Forget the pain and use the wisdom gained from it. Easier said then done I know, but this site is the perfect oppertunity to seek and share wisdom gained. I feel better this morning. I am seeing someone I have know for about three years, the first year was bliss, and then things started comming apart at the seams, we partied to much and fought even more. That was the time I would look at my children and and although they were speaking to me, I wouldn't hear. We kindof broke up but kept the sleeping together intact. To me, it meant were were trying, I do not know what it meant to him. After five months of "trying", a good friend came up to me and told me he just got back from hawaii with some other woman and they were "in love" and going to couple counsiling, when I confronted him, he lied until I gave him some details that were shared with me. He was sharing a bed with two women for five months. I found her and told her, she fought for him and won, I let go and drowned in pain of my loss. Then a few months later, he was tiring of her and he asked to see me, we started "trying" again and he broke up with her...then a few months later I sensed a falsness about him and turns out he was back with her. He changed his number and left me all together, again, I drowned in pain. I got back on my feet and started loving myself again and next thing you know about four months later he is answering by former pleaing e-mails with loving responses, he was staying at a near-by hotel because he wanted her to move out of his house, so now he bounced back into my court and of course I felt powerful, but now we have been "tryint" for about 7 months and although he can sleep with me, there is nothing more to the relationship.....and I am drowning in pain once more, I realize I didn't win the prize, I won the punishment. whtdaises

December 5, 2003
10:54 am
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Wanttobewell
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Dear Whtdaises,,,I know, I know. We will learn friend. We're learning now. We will make it. We already "know" what to do, well maybe. I don't even remember putting birdseed in the cat food bowls, so what good can I be to you except to share with you my story,,umm stories :} Same thing with my children. They know. We know. So what? I don't know what.. We'll just try to keep on learning about ourselves and what we need to do to love ourselves and get better. I don't get a lot of responses and the ones I do, I treasure, no matter if it's what I want to hear. Just knowing that people like you, who have a heart of gold, deserve better, know they do, and are working hard to make things better, and who take the time to talk to me makes all the difference in my situation. I've gotten a few "prizes" myself, as you know. I'm not qualified to give anybody any advicd about anything, I'm so messed up, but it seems a tad easier to look at another's situation and tell them what they absolutely need to be doing. We're all here for a reason. We've all had problems and sounds like most of us are still working to try to bring out in ourselves our own spirit to make our own lives better so we can be better for our children.

I read posts and realize that a lot of folks are much further ahead than I am in their quests. Like I said Whtdaises, you help me, and I thank you so much. Better get up and see if I left the dishrag under my pillow or something? :}}} Bless you for being here. W

December 5, 2003
11:12 am
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HARRYO
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WTBW Remember my post about a
codependent being an egomainiac
with an inferiority complex.
Well, I thought that I was bad,
but you get the award.
You want everything to be perfect
and then when it isn't you beat
yourself up. Remember my
posting on "Toxic love?"
Wanting relationships to last is
healthy, expecting them to
is not.
I want my relationships to always be
at the stage where everything
is magical and special, but
that doesn't work. When it
comes to your choices in men
and how you approach lovineg
them. Well you put the E in
enabling. You are aware of their
flaws and you constantly want
to "fix" them when you can't
you beat yourself up.
As far as the pattern of abuse
and substance addictions. That
is one thing that I made
up a long time ago that I was
going to break that chain for
not only myself but for my children.
Why do you continually set yourself up
for failure?
Reading your thread I see that
you always seem to be attracted
to the types that will be
always toxic for you. Why don't
you look for the qualities that
will make you happy and healthy
ongoingly, then your happiness
can be received ongoingly?

December 5, 2003
11:49 am
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whtdaises
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Harryo,

I can answer that for you, we attract ourselves to the losers or the emotionally unavailable because somewhere in life that is who we learned to love, thus it has become a part of what we are comfortable with. Real, true love is is nothing but a fairy tale for us. We were taught this love, we know no other way. We think the chaos and pain are a part of life and is supposed to be there when involved. If the fairy tale should happen a long we run from it, much the same way a child should run from strangers. True love is not right in our minds it is wrong and something that only exsist in the movies. My mom was and alcoholic and a major drug queen, my dad was dying all his life, and my step-mom abandoned me with her jealousy of me. NO one was emotionally available........so guess what? That is what I was taught love was supposed to be and thus those are the very men I attract myself to. In codependency, I believe somewhere deep down inside, in my inner child that if I am a good enough girl, I will make them love me........that is why the pain is so engulfing because it is so hard to change what you have been installed with over and over...Whtdaises

December 5, 2003
11:58 am
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artist 2
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Dasies, make sense to me too...

December 5, 2003
12:49 pm
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Zinnie
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Hi W.

There could be a few answers to your bowls being full. One of course is you did it, but you forgot because of all the stress you are going through.

Or...

It could be your husband did it for you as he is trying.

Give him credit for trying. When he does something like that just say "thank you, I really appreciate it."

My first husband was wonderful he really was, but being so much younger than him, I think I tended to wait on him, and he just accepted it because he was from the generation where that was just done.

My husband now, was raised by his Grandmother, a southern woman with the back bone of General Robert E. Lee at that! He has the manners of the perfect gentleman pounded into him. When he get's up for any reason, he will ask me "do you need anything while I'm up?" He cleans up after himself and even after 14 years I still get "please and thank you" if I do something for him - pick something up for him while I'm out he will say "thank you, I appreciate that." I reciprocate. Just by being polite to each other, believe it or not I think it does wonders.

Not saying he is perfect, he has been banned from the washing machine, and sometimes I wonder if he did that on purpose! He believe's everything should be washed on hot with bleach!

So, if your husband is trying, then again - say thank you, and enjoy.

Love,

Zinnie

December 5, 2003
12:55 pm
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Wonderful advice about husbands, Zinnie. Thank you for reminding us of the simple things, the easy things we can do every day to make things better.

December 5, 2003
1:55 pm
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Wanttobewell
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Well HarryO,,I never expected to be called an egomaniac. Jeez,,let's see, I've now been called an egomaniac and a glutton for punishment. Well, I'm obviously a glutton for punishment; no argument there, but an egomaniac? Yeah, I agree to being an enabler. I really have a long, long way to go, don't I? I'm more messed up than I ever realized HarryO. I did read your toxic love post and yes, that is me, I know. Please try not to get fed up with me. I know how pathetic I sound, believe me. I'm going to really try, though. I don't do drugs anymore, for over five years now, so that's a good step isn't it? I want a better life for my children and realize I have passed down this crap to them, more guilt! tons of guilt!! I will try. I can do it but as I said, I'm just beginning to look at myself realistically, so be patient, please. I feel bad enough as it is. Such hard questions you ask. I set myself up because I believe within myself that I deserve it and I don't know anything else. I don't like being a victim anymore or maybe I should say letting myself be a victim of the toxicity. Do you think maybe that I've just gone for so long that I might as well just say to hell with it? The abuse? I believe that can very effectively ruin a child's life. You said you decided to break the chain of abuse and addiction. I haven't sexually abused my children, but the way it affected me and helped to make me who I am now surely did affect them. Is this a form of abuse of them when their mother doesn't realize how sick she is? I suppos in a round-about way? Maybe I'm just too emotionally rattled to have a sane conversation right now. I sound really defensive, don't I?

Whtdaises,,,thank you for your explanation. That pretty much tells it all. You got it!!! Thanks again,,I couldn't think of many answers to those questions. They scared me.. Not sure why.

Zinnie,,,I have told my husband how very much I appreciate how he is helping me since he hasn't been drinking. It's great!! And I intend to keep telling him that I do appreciate it. The bowls? No, he called me at lunch, and I told him about that. He didnt' do it. Tried to make a joke out of it and said I was just "my looney self." He-he. Yep, ya gotta laugh, or all really is lost, I think. He's fighting his own alcohol battle, so I hesitate to lean on him too much, even though I know we are all responsible for our own actions. What a mess! Actually, at my house, I'm the one who has almost been banned from the washing machine because I love that clorox too...:}}. You're are so right about the little things such as just plain common courtesy in saying please and thank you and being considerate of one another. Those things mean a lot, and I am trying to let myself enjoy them. This is a new experience for me, though. Kind of wondering when the ax will fall type of feeling. Am I hopeless? Do you think? God how I must get on all of your collective nerves. If you get tired of my crap just let me kmow instead of ignoring me. I must get more positive, huh? Thanks again for all of your input. You're all great!!!

December 5, 2003
2:18 pm
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HARRYO
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WBTBW. Abuse can be physical,
as well as psychological. See as
codependents when we feel pain we
inflict pain. It can be mean
spirited verbal abuse, physical, or
worst cse scenario, sexual
but in your case probably more psychological. Your role model
as always the victim will feed
into you children. They are
now victims' victims. If by
the grace of God we can prove to
our children that there is a
healthy way to be in a relationship
then we have done our jobs as
parents in providing them with
the direction that they need.
BREAK THE CHAIN

December 5, 2003
3:45 pm
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Wanttobewell
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HARRYO, you are right. It's a very tall order, but what other choice is there? I love them and want them to have healthy relationships. First I have to get better,and I will help them. You're direct and to the point, and I appreciate you. W

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