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Phalic I have a question for you
February 1, 2005
3:28 pm
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Anonymous
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are you here?

February 2, 2005
2:28 pm
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Phalic_Liberator
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Now I'm here

February 2, 2005
3:17 pm
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Well I was just wondering since you seem to know people pretty well, what your knowledge in on Masogynist? (SP) basically the man that hates women.

February 2, 2005
3:43 pm
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Wow. I could get into hours of discussion on that. There are several things that cause it ranging from full-blown Narcissistic Personality Disorder to a man's Freudian fear of his feminine leanings.

Could you be a little more specific? Perhaps there is a context you were thinking of or someone you are relating to.

There are a lot of things that cause men to hate women and a lot of things that represent it.

February 2, 2005
3:49 pm
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Alright, well my ex, Mr. Jack which I am sure you have read about seems to have this major fear/hatred of women. Especially all women who are not virgins, such as they are "bad" women compared to a "good" woman. He also would like to do things for power over me, and his constant criticizm and anger towards me all the time. I have spoken with my therapist on this and her suggestion is that he is a major misogynist.

It seems that he hates the fact that he is addicted in some sense to the sex we have, and therefore after we have sex, he takes all his anger out on me. Or did.

I have heard him talk to his mother and he seems to genuinely care for her, and has no real issues with her except he thinks that like all women, we cannot think for ourselves.

His main term for women was whore. So if the mother relationship is fine, how do men really come to hate women so much?

February 2, 2005
4:21 pm
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It's a perversion. Before continuing I'm going to suggest that you not be satisfied with what I say. One could teach an entire college course on this. Another term for what you're refering to is called the "Madonna/Whore" complex.

The perversion lies in the fact that he is as sweet as pie to his mother. During childhood he had to rely on her for his well-being. His welfare relied on his submitting to her and if Mr. Jack had a very traumatic childhood his reliance on Mother provided little, if any relief from the emotional turmoil there-in.

As children men are taught that daddy has what mother wants. Boys are taught to be like daddy and in that striving, embroiled in a large degree of frustration and resentment, for a period of time, we cultivate a disdain for all things feminine (eg. couties).

Most men circle out of that but some never give that mistrust or disdain of women up, particularly when we have to rely on an abusive or neglectful mother for our well-being. Of course, as men, we have sexual strivings to fullfil but the unmitigated rage of a three year old lies lurking in the backgroud of our being, unresolved.

To us mother will always be all-things good and innocent even though, in order to have us, she'd have to have been naughty. We are caught up in a paradox in that we need mother a whore, who posesses qualities of good women, virgins.

So we esteem mother with virginal qualities and reconcile that lie by taking it out on the rest of the women, who aren't virgins, who are whores, who are subhuman, who can be discarded, unlike mother, with ease after they are done bearing the brunt of our anger.

How's that?

February 2, 2005
4:37 pm
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WOW, so then how are these type of men able to have friendships with women, because he seems to have friendships while very few, with women and they appear to really like him. And in essence he seems like such a nice police clean cut boy, and then when it comes to me, it's like all this shit is let loose and out comes the devil. When speaking with my therapist on this she said it is like this, all people have bad things in their core, most of them can be okay with the good and bad and understand it.

Some people though have much more bad, like she thinks Mr. Jack does, and while he has been able to hide it well, I trigger something in that core of him, that causes that bad shit to come out. I know he has projected a lot of shit onto me, but I wonder then if there are certain "women" that would trigger the madonna/whore complex.

I truly believe he does have it. I know that he thinks so highly of his ex, that was a virgin when they met and I bet my bottom dollar even though they broke up numerous times, NEVER, slept with anyone else but him. And yet he tells me that the sex wasn't very good between them.

That would figure into the madonna, who he couldn't have sex with right? Or not enjoy sex with, so that he can care for her and love her but not have great sex with her.

Then there is me, which I guess is the whore, that he seems to hate, and can't control, but loves to have sex with me.

So is there any way that men can get over this, Im certainly not talking about my helping him because Ive been through enough shit with him to want to help him, but from a male perspective, how do you really get through or be okay with those two contradicting feelings.

February 2, 2005
5:03 pm
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I think you've got a lot of insight, first off, you are coming to some of the answers on your own.

WOW, so then how are these type of men able to have friendships with women, because he seems to have friendships while very few, with women and they appear to really like him.?

?Now let's talk about sociability. Humans are a social creature. In order to have our needs met we must accomodate a social routine. In order to fulfill our sexual strivings we must cultivate charm and asthetics. In order to have the continuity maintained in our abusive relationships we must behave in a manner that is contrary to that on the outside. There are many, many underlying themes at work here and this discussion can only scratch the surface. What you seem to be refering to is a veil of sociability. It is cultivated because if he were to be "unmasked" no woman in their right mind would have him. He wouldn't be able to approach anyone in that condition, would he?

That would figure into the madonna, who he couldn't have sex with right? Or not enjoy sex with, so that he can care for her and love her but not have great sex with her.

?It's like having sex with mother. Both of you probably share some of the same qualities that are contained in his mother. The very nature of the fact that #1 was a virgin may have been too large a barrier for him. You on the other hand, in his mind, are a whore and good for sex and the rage displayed afterward. You've answered your question here. I'm only restating it.

So is there any way that men can get over this?

?No. Not really or at least not without years of therapy. There is certainly no way you can do it but you know that. Consider that from the time he was three or four years old he has had this rage ingrained and reinforced throughout his life experience. It is a little like trying to unteach someone how to tie their shoes.

February 2, 2005
5:13 pm
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You stated
"In order to have the continuity maintained in our abusive relationships we must behave in a manner that is contrary to that on the outside"

I guess I never really thought that abusers can only be abusive to one person. I guess that is the hardest thing to realize for many people on here is that the person can be functionable and sociable and nice and polite to other people and then they are totally different in their relationship. Intersting that you can only really abuse one person at a time. I don't mean parents that abuse children and so forth, but this specific personality.

So then in essence, this type of man will then marry the madonna and cheat on her with the whore's.

I think that many men have this complex in fact I would like to say that most all men have this complex it just varies is what degree.

February 2, 2005
5:19 pm
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Just jumping in a bit Aces, PL...
What I have noticed about some men, is that some healthy and perhaps as described above, all seem to have common characteristics, while one may be healthy and the other unhealthy. I have been taught that a man who loves his mother will be a good husband. My uncles loved theri mother and were excellent husbands. So there is a difference if I am understanding this correctly, but I only ask because I don't know.

February 2, 2005
5:25 pm
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OMW, I think that men may love their mother but it doesn't mean they will be a good husband.

I also think that this theory can be held for women as well. I know that when I really care for someone, then I really don't have a desire to have sex with them, in fact having sex with them seems icky almost. I know that sounds weird. And then the men that I don't have that actual caring for, that actual feeling, other than lust, I can have great sex with and so forth.

I don't treat men like shit though.

February 2, 2005
5:27 pm
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Aces, maybe something about being detached?

February 2, 2005
5:28 pm
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Hmmm. And I always put hmmm down whenever anyone comes up with an observation that I hadn't considerred at all or in very much depth.

Yes, I would say that all men do harbor some unresolved masogynist themes throughout their lifetime. Consider that a lot of men are anxious to apply the term "slut" to a woman they deem as promiscuous. This would be an example of what you are talking about

And no, not all abusers are as "cloaked" as even they would have you believe. When there will be a Jeckyl & Hyde persona revealled in dysfunctional people depends largely on that individual but characteristicly behavior and thought pattern transcend from one relationship into all of them.

I've said it before and I'll say it again that psychology is a spooky thing. A CEO may do well in his interview with a head hunter and will be able to field numerous and daunting questions from the company's board of directors but once in position he may make flagrant assertions, demands, and abuses that go unnoticed as antisocial behavior because of a variety of mechanisms and beliefs that are in place concerning the very traits we look to in authority figures.

It is complex and dizzying to say the least and these people are master manipulators. Our perceptions are augmented over a period of time that many of us find ourselves doing things at their behest that never would have occurred to us on our own.

February 2, 2005
5:29 pm
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but how come when i come attached, or not even attached but I seem to genuinely care for someone, having sex with them almost grosses me out to an extent. Oddly like I feel like it would be having sex with my brother or something. (Not that I have).

can women have this complex as well?

February 2, 2005
5:37 pm
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OMW,

That's the tricky thing. On balance, you're right. Men who love their mothers are typically more well adjusted than those who don't.

I, personally, know a man who'se mother invited five friends to gang bang her right in front of him. Her abuse was so bad he had to go live with relatives.

He, however, is a really good man and a devoted husband. In human beings there are no absolutes. There are patterns that sometimes we are tempted to recognize as all pervasive and unchangeable. They propose axioms that, when balanced against the whole, proove themselves. There are also black swans and red herrings that contradict these assumption. In the end we can all be fooled by randomness and we can all be lied to.

February 2, 2005
5:40 pm
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"Our perceptions are augmented over a period of time that many of us find ourselves doing things at their behest that never would have occurred to us on our own."

True very true, you tolerate things that you never have before and you start to think and believe things that you never have before as well.

It is almost a mind controlling thing, and it is scary in some senses. I think with some personalities like the batterer, you question what you say yourself and what you think and you just don't know anymore at times what to think, say or feel because it has been second guesses and tricked so many times.

I have thoroughly enjoyed talking with you Phalic.

Thanks for the help. I still think women can have this complex as well but what would we call it then?

February 2, 2005
5:51 pm
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A&S,

Both men and women have sexually motivated complexes. A great deal more research has been done on men. There is a book by Louise J. Kaplan called Female Perversions which describes some of the complexes females, in particular, seem to suffer from. It is done from a Freudian school of thought and contains a lot of psychoanalytic jargon with an overview of male perversions to contrast between the two.

You may be interested in that. My suggestion is that you not breach lightly into this domain on this site. Self discovery is a powerful thing and can carry some unintended consequences with it. It is a caveat that I offer you sternly before proceeding with a discussion involving your own sexual functions and being.

February 2, 2005
5:53 pm
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Phalic_Liberator
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I have enjoyed this immensly as well.

February 2, 2005
5:53 pm
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on my way
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Beauty and the Beast, do you think it really is a fairy tale?

February 2, 2005
5:56 pm
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...and this is why I'm bi...

😉

Ren'ai

February 2, 2005
6:05 pm
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Phalic_Liberator
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Do I think beauty and the beast is a fairy tale? I think it is a parable like the frog prince, cinderella, and snow white.

In a sense the three little bears is a parable too. It isn't about little red riding hood, so much, finding the right bed, chair, and bowl of pooridge. It is a story about the sacrifices of parenting, in essence, saying that parents go out of their way to do for the child before doing for themselves.

What did you have in mind with Beauty and the Beast?

February 2, 2005
6:06 pm
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Phalic_Liberator
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Oh, Ren'ai, you toy with me again...

February 2, 2005
6:15 pm
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I think I tended to bring out the softer side in someone I dated. And I think it was difficult for him to feel that....ha, I could make a joke here in regard to my other thread....but I won't!! 🙂
I am a very patient, kind person. This person I dated had the nickname, "The Beast". People who knew him previously told me to watch out for his temper, that he spoke to his employees abusively, etc. However in the 3 years I knew him, never did an abusive word come from him, he was always kind, showered me with gifts, warm, affectionate...so I never beleived the other opinions. We always described two different people.
This relationship is over has been for ahwile, but I still have questions. Maybe I should just drop all of it.

February 2, 2005
6:18 pm
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Phalic_Liberator
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What are your questions?

February 2, 2005
6:53 pm
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Mwah? Toying? Not. NO! Never!!!

Look, think about it. I'm bi and still alone. What's the statistical likelihood of this happening? I mean, NO ONE from the living population has been eliminated, in theory...

Trust me, I'm not "all that"...

Love,

Ren'ai

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