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Okay....I've failed miserably....now what????
May 30, 2005
9:02 pm
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lollipop3
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I was doing so well. I've had barely any contact since last Saturday. He tried to manipulate...and like superman, I deflected. He tried to control by threatening to shut off my cell phone.....ha, I said...shut it off. I cannot be controlled with a cell phone! Ok, manipulation didn't work, control didn't work...now what????

Pity....that's what! He just called to say "how was your vacation?....did you stay sober?....I was just worried about you and wanted to make sure you were okay." Followed by....I spent the weekend in the hospital, they say I have to have surgery on my back. I can't sleep, I'm in so much pain..blah, blah, blah.

Of course I feel bad and now I don't know what to do. This is the same man who just last week was a TOTAL f$#@ing jerk, verbally abusive, nasty, mean....BROKE UP WITH ME. The same man who convinced me to buy a $100 cell phone, (although I don't have a job at the moment and can't really afford it) and said he would pay the bill, only to cancel the service on me 3 weeks later, because he didn't like the fact that I stood up for myself! Thank you for the $100 paper weight!

And now I feel bad for him????

I honestly don't know what to do? I know he's trying to manuver his way back in (I know because he said things like, "it will just take one phone call to turn your phone back on. I just didn't know what was going on with us"), and I don't want him to get the better of me, but I also don't want to be a jerk.

I don't know if I should just say "hey, your back is not my problem" (yeah, right) or I should just let our problems lie on the back burner while we tend to his back problem (which is a very serious problem).

I don't know what to dooooo. HELP!!!!!

May 30, 2005
9:08 pm
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QueenOfHearts
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Lollipop,

Dont let him manipulate you! You are better than that! He is using his controlling ways in order to get you to do what he wants you to do. You can care about him and his back problems and be considerate without having to do what he wants you to do. The manipulation is written all over it with the cell phone. Take a stand and just tell him, look I care about you and the fact that your back hurts, but right now I care about me too and I need to work on myself first. You deserve it. If you allow him to pull you in, you will repeat the same cycles all over again. Good luck.

May 30, 2005
9:15 pm
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InPainZHT
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Oh, lollipop3...

for the sake of all that's holy cut this person out of your life and run like hell. Why do I say this? I see exactly the cycle he wants to set up and maintain with you; it's evil, pure and simple. It happened not only to my ex but other close friends as well.

Does this sound familiar....
(1) My ex's ex leaves when he doesn't get his way (had a childish manner of spinning the tires as he drives off). All utilities that are in his name (by his choosing of course) start getting shut off; *click* goes the lights, *click* goes the phone, no gas comes from the stove burners when the knobs are turned....

(2) You feel helpless, overwhelmed, and go running back. If not, proceed to #3

(3) You get the silent treatment for a while, to make you miss him. You go running back; if not, proceed to #4.

(4) After the silent treatment fails, you get calls out of the blue.. "are you okay? how are you? I had a bad dream where something happened to you and I am worried..."
Does the sudden appearance of emotional involvement get you? If not, go to #5

(5) Calls late at night where a sobbing voice on the other end says he heard a song that reminded him of you, or something happened that really upset him because it aroused memories of your good times together, etc....

And the list of manipulation attempts can go on, but those are the classics. They never are the be-all-end-all, these people never change, they bait you to reel you back in only to cast you out again.

My ex would get dreadful voicemail messages where he would cuss her and talk to her like she were an animal; she would be called everything but civilized. Then, suddenly, on her yahoo messenger, one word pops up from him; the name of a song that they loved together. WHIPLASH! one extreme to the other. What an emotional rush. Or a one-liner would just come across her phone text.. U there? Miss you...

Yes. Just MINUTES after a cussing and a brutal tongue-lashing. They all learn from the same book, it's true.

InPain

May 30, 2005
9:24 pm
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exoticflower
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Lolli--so, things went poorly. Great! NOw you have learned a new lesson, one that helps GREATLY! You know that you are not in a possition that you can talk to him at all yet, you are still very vulnerable and big hearted in areas that perhaps you needn't be. Now you know that next time you can say "I'm sorry, I am not able to talk to you right now, it is not a good time for me". It's about self preservation, keeping your focus on yourself and getting better. He is making your recovery a joint concern, trying to feed into that need for partnership. He is trying to make you feel obliged to him becasue he is hurt. He has other friends, and if he does not, he needs to get other ones, he is not a good friend to you, and you can not be a good friend to him while you are so vulnerable right now.

Don't beat yourself up--thank goodness for mistakes, we learn so much from them! You don't owe him anything, and you owe it to yourself to stay away from this as much as you would alcohol. You know it is not good for you, that you have an alergy and addiction to it, and that it doesn't treat you well. Apply your steps to this as well, maybe?

And I think it's time to send all of that possitive energy right back at you as promised, and I am more than happy to...I know how hard it can be, I do, to feel this way.

(((((((((lolli)))))))))), of course you are going to get through this--just look, you are aware of it! You are displeased with the mistreatment and manipulation you are able to recognize! That's huge! You are not failing miserably, you are making mistakes and LEARNING FROM THEM! You are succeeding!!!! Don't worry about answering to him, telling him about your progress, councelling him, nothing. You need to focus on you right now, and he wants you not to because it intimidates him. That is sad, yes, but not your problem. It is destructive to you to let it be, for that matter. Shame on him.

I wonder, have you ever read the celstine prophecy? some of it is silly and the end sucks, but there is a great couple of chapters where the author illustrates wonderfully the addiction to people and how it is destructive, how some people starve for it and suck you dry and can't give back. It's a work of fiction, a nice read really, but that part actually really spoke to me on almost a theraputic self -help level.

Good luck, hon. Maybe get out for a while?

May 30, 2005
9:27 pm
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lollipop3
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Thanks to both of you for your responses.

InPain-----although a very serious subject....thank you for making me laugh. I'm not sure what the funny part was...the way you wrote it or the fact that it is so true....it's funny.

You're both right and I know it. I also know that I feel that familiar tug that called...losing my resolve.

I feel so weak. If he just wouldn't call, I'd be fine. If he just didn't live downstairs, I'd be fine.
I know I would.

I'm totally having a pity party right now but WHAT DID I EVER DO TO DESERVE THIS??? Please can anybody answer that. (you really don't have to answer that I know I didn't do anything to deserve it but WHAT THE [email protected]#$!!!)

May 30, 2005
9:35 pm
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exoticflower
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Honey, can I suggest something? Not to be mean at all, but the best way to stop having a pity party is to STOP it. Pity parties can get destructive. They keep you in that frame of mind, allow you to trap yourself. How about going to a meeting? Or to see a funny movie (for the love of all, nothing romantic though!), or even for some coffee and guy oogling with a friend. Only you have the power to change your stinkin' thinkin' right now--and I know you can if you just choose to. If nothing else, keep leaning on this thread for support, just DON'T do this to yourself. Think about the cycle you know it always is. Talk it out. You're going to be ok, you have the poer to stop this part of you from taking over and consuming you.

May 30, 2005
9:37 pm
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lollipop3
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Thank you exotic----sorry I had to call on that favor so soon. Who knew???

Like I said, I know that you are all right but....(here's the deadly, pathetic but)....I WANT IT TO WORK WITH HIM. I have put soooo much time and energy into this relationship and he has tried to a certain extent (9 months sober, new job, moving to a different state, etc) and I don't want to give up. I want the abuse to stop...yes. Sad to say, the only reason there's been no contact this past week was because he gave me the easy out by breaking up with me. I didn't want no contact...I did it out of pride. I was NOT going to beg someone who didn't want me so it was fairly easy. But now that he's contacting....I still want it work. But I also know that if I give in, the verbal abuse will just continue.

OMG....this sucks!!!!!!!

May 30, 2005
9:38 pm
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InPainZHT
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Lollipop3-

You live upstairs; I live next door. If you allow it to, it can really *get* to you. Until I started understanding that happiness is not conditional on anything outside of myself, I was thinking there was no hope outside of moving. Think of a beautiful sunrise; it makes you feel positive, nice, inspired, etc; then switch your mind to thinking about bills, unresolved dreaded issues, etc... you feel depressed, perhaps, overwhelmed, etc. What changed? Not the outside circumstance. YOU changed your thinking.

Reading "Man's search for meaning" from Victor Frankl is very inspiring; he found hope and contentment while being in a nazi deathcamp during WWII, amidst physical as well as psychological torture and extremes. You discover real quick how what bothers you and causes you to feel as though "your life sucks" pales in comparison.

InPain

May 30, 2005
9:39 pm
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lollipop3
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Exotic----I know that you are in a similar situation----did you read the post from INPain.....I thought is was very funny....and very true.

May 30, 2005
9:43 pm
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lollipop3
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You know what Inpain....you are soooo right.

I just spent the past 4 days vacationing on an island with my friends. I did exactly what you talked about....I went for walks, I ate good food, I laughed with my friends, I watched the sunsets, I stayed SOBER...and I felt great!

Now that I'm home I'm concetrating on CRAP.

Thank you for the words of wisdom....I'll try

Lolli

May 30, 2005
9:49 pm
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exoticflower
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Yes, I did read it, InPain, that's it exactly...like clockwork. And yes, very funny, I think in large part in a laugh at ourselves 'THIS is what I'm so into?' way for me. When put in plain English, it seems a bit sophmoric, AND a bit translucent and pathetic on their parts.

I have read Mans Search for Meaning too, there was a part that really hit home for me--talking about all of these people, skin and bones with heads shaved and sores all over...and they where LAUGHING with one another. It is a great one for getting perspective, Lolli.

May 30, 2005
9:50 pm
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lolli-

Please excuse me if I'm making giant assumptions, but all that "did you stay sober... I was so worried about you" crap sounds very familiar to me. My ex would work that on me (usually successfully) after we split over something HE did while high. Much of that "concern" is really generated from a very self serving place at times. I was just as sick as he in many ways so I got sucked in. He might have well said "are you weak and sick enough to not know what's good for you?.... because I don't have your best intrests in mind either. Can I come home?" Only in hindsight can I see how completely warped things were.

Oh, yes... and followed up with tales of whatever self inflicted duress he put himself in as well... I've heard it all!

I'm so glad you have so much more clarity than I did, and this board to help you through.

warm wishes,
ella

May 30, 2005
9:57 pm
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lollipop3
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Okay.....I've taken a breather. I seem to be working myself into a lather for nothing here.

Thinking about my conversation with him, it's not as bad as I thought.

First, he said he could turn the phone back on....I didn't respond to that.
Second, he said he would give me the hundred dollars for the phone....(stupidly), I said don't worry about it, what's done is done.
Third, I did show compassion and said I'm sorry you're in so much pain, I wish there was something I could do but that is just my nature and I wouldn't change that for him or anyone else.....and
Lastly, I did say...(foolishly), if you need anything let me know ....however, that does not mean that if he calls and asks for something that I have to drop everything to do it....right?

So, in retrospect, I guess it wasn't as bad as I thought.

Just because YOU ALL know that I'm feeling weak right now...doesn't mean that HE knows I'm feeling weak right now.

Okay...back in control.

One day at a time

Lolli

May 30, 2005
9:59 pm
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I want to add though, while I don't think you should feel sorry for him- in the (maybe distant) future... forgiveness is part of recovery for all of us. IMHO, it will help us accept certain realities and not repeat certain patterns. But right now Lolli, for you and I, maybe it's too early to start worrying about that. It's hard to sever your responsibilities towards someone you felt so strongly towards and possibly still care a great deal for. But you are first. Detachment is first above all.

There is a lot on detaching with love in that Melanie Beattie book. Do you have a copy? That was the best chapter for me.

=ella

May 30, 2005
10:13 pm
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lollipop3
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Thank you ella....I appreciate your response. I think you're absolutely right about the "self serving concern". As a matter of fact, there is no doubt in my mind that that is exactly what it was.

In pain was correct as well, saying, manipulating didn't work, control didn't work so on to the next step...I was just concerned about you.

Also, I just got Co-dependent No More from the library and read it over the weekend. I did find it very helpful. I also read, Why does he do that...inside the minds of angy and controlling men. That book, although it felt like a punch in the gut, was very insightful and helpful.

Thanks for your support....

Lolli

May 30, 2005
10:21 pm
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lolli-

Well that was very timely reading!!! Good for you! I kept reading about that book and thinking "Oh, yeah... whatever. I hate that self help crap." And then one day I was doing laundry and found a copy in the building's free library. It was just waiting for me. So I gave it a chance. Some things stick in your mind.

-ella

May 30, 2005
11:19 pm
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Shameonme
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You guys are great! Lolli- my exhusband basically did the same thing. He had to have knee surgery. (I had always taken care of doc. appt. etc.) He wanted me to take off work (we were divorced 7mths) to be there for him. The (grown) children tried to make me feel guilty. I bought their supper the night of the surgery and cooked for them the following night, told them things he should & shouldn't do. (I am a nurse)
But that was it! The guilt didn't work
not that time anyway. I was proud that I didn't cave. Offer support in those ways.

As for InPain- your posts was right on the money. My ex does all of those things. First he may curse me, then he will confess his undying love and how he KNOWS how to love me now. He misses all the things he didn't do.
Reading your posts was very enlightening.

Hang in there Lolli- it sounds as if you are back on track.

May 31, 2005
8:16 am
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lollipop3
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Thank you Shame, I appreciate your input and the good advice.

I'm feeling a little bit better today.

Unfortunately, a good friend of mine called this morning to tell me about a tragic loss his family has suffered. His brother (a recovering drug addict) who has been missing since Mother's Day, was found in a local river yesterday.

Tragedies like this certainly put things into perspective for me. It makes me feel as though the problems that I have, that seem so overwhelming, are really quite trivial in the grand scheme of things.

Reminds me of the saying....I was upset that I had no shoes, until I met a man that had no feet.

I hope you're all doing well today and can take a moment to feel grateful for the good things.

My thoughts are with you all.

Lolli

May 31, 2005
9:27 am
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InPainZHT
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Exoticflower, lollipop3, shameonme,

I think the words you are looking for to describe my post was "tragically funny". Not funny as in night-stage comedian funny. I can't help but think that, while we JOKE about those men who do those things must "study from the same book", the reality must be that there is some sort of mental condition that causes them to do the same thing. Pathological liars, murders, rapists, thieves, cleptomaniacs all do *the same thing*, but they do not study from a book, right? It MUST be that they all just share the same condition, whatever it may be.

I am a man and let me state here emphatically that I detest what these men do. Also let us not forget that it takes two to tango. By that I mean you lovely, wonderful ladies should not be allowing yourselves to be victimized by this. They can only do it to you if you let them. Please do not!

Let me give an example. My ex received an email one time from her ex-piece of filth where he said something along the lines of "you are a filthy whore, f--- you, you will never hear or see from me again, do not ever contact me again or i'll get my number changed, do not come over to where i'm at now or i'll call the police, I hope you die a miserable disgusting dreadful death!" (take in mind I have better spelling and grammer than he did; to read his actual message you would have thought it was written by a 2nd grader still struggling with writing and spelling skills)

So, she's mad. She's really steaming; she paces the floor and talks about how dreadful and horrible of a man he is. Oh, if she didn't fear for arrest, she would have grabbed the sharpest tool in her garage, jumped in her car and headed right for where her ex lived. Sound familiar ladies? OH, but wait..... and I swear to everything holy this is true.... FIVE MINUTES after this text message pops up on her cell phone.... a message pops up on her yahoo messenger.

STRAIGHTEN UP LITTLE SOLDIER.

What did this mean? Guess what... it was the title of one of thier favorite songs they use to enjoy together, cry together.... it's a rap song about broken families and how horrible it is that parents don't stay together for the children's sake...

I won't even want to go further and told you the result, what she did, 24 hours later (the next day). Makes me friggn' sick to my stomach if I allow it to consume me.

Ladies, please leave these VAMPIRES, do not turn back; change your numbers, but thier emails and messenger windows on BLOCK, consult the local authorities about protective orders. Just get yourselves to a place you can HEAL.

InPain

May 31, 2005
9:59 am
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kc30
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Hey Lolli
You haven't failed miserably...we all have slips...it's a slippery slope! Just pick yourself up...decide what you'll do the next time you hear that voice on the other end to prevent yourself from feeling like this again, and move on. Or even better...get the number changed and unlisted. Then you don't even have to deal with the pity/guilt trip.

He will, FOR SURE, look to you now, given what you've learned about his family. And you will feel sooo badly...just be careful. This would be a PERFECT excuse for you to re-engage with him. You can feel badly and offer condolences to the family without having to see or talk to him. Yes, it's a tragedy that has befallen them, but you can't fix it, and you still have to come first. The man is toxic.

I believe it's total manipulation...just another tactic in the arsenal of the Master of control and manipulation. He knows what he's doing...he's got the hook in the line, fully baited, and is just waiting for you to bite. Why not shock the shit out of him by not only avoiding the hook, but by jumping out of the pond completely!!

I'm really digging In Pain's perspective...it's like you've looking through a window and can see it all soooo clearly.

InPain..Stick around ok? There a more than a couple of us gals who sometimes can't see the games because we're too close and too hurting.

kc

May 31, 2005
10:11 am
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InPainZHT
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kc30-

I have no plans of going anywhere anytime soon.

You were correct about the master of control and manipulation; what I always wanted to know, though, is that are THEY aware they do it? seriously... is it that they KNOW this works on you, so they do it? Or is it that thier little pathetic excuses for brains are so twisted and demented that they don't have a method, ryhme or reason, they are just spun far off of sanity and can't focus, or stick to a mindset, or whatever.

Keep your hate lists near your phone. If he calls, don't answer it at first; start reading the hate list as a "breather spell". Sometimes the overwhelming impulse to grab that phone when "THAT CALLER ID NUMBER" shows up is irresistable. YOU know what I mean; your heart races! Your mind drops EVERYTHING that it was recently focused on. Hell, your neighbor's house could be on fire with them screaming for help, and you'd be oblivious at that point to it. ALL you know is that HE (or in my case, SHE) is calling! THEY WANT TO MAKE CONTACT! *gasp!*

Well, just stop for a second; read your hate list as that phone rings. Believe me, your voicemail will pick up; if not, you have thier number anyway... and at the end of the list, when you come to it, if you still feel like your heart is all-a-flutter over that man.... you know, the man who you were just reminded of by your list that lied about going out to pick up a loaf of bread at night that lasted 2 hours and in reality had a sexual affair... that man who took your money... cut off your utilities... struck you with his fists... and called BEFORE to say he loved you and misses you....

if after that list you still are weak in the knees and so in love with the abusing, battering, abandoning, substance abusing, cheating lieing piece of trash, by all means! call him back! Geez, look what you are MISSING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

InPain 🙂 🙂 🙂

May 31, 2005
10:17 am
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lollipop3
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Hi Kc-----I seem to have created some confusion that I would like to clear up.......

The person who's brother died is NOT my boyfriend.

He is a good friend of mine of over 20 years. Actually, his brother being missing and his calling me for support is the reason that boyfriend started this whole fight to begin with.

Boyfriend is looking for sympathy because of a back problem.

I hope I cleared this up....sorry for any confusion....but regarless of the reason for the "sympathy card" your advice remains true.

Lolli

May 31, 2005
10:21 am
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exoticflower
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Lolli, it's true, it helps SOOO much to remove the the ability to BE called by him--if that whole mess is too much for you with changing the number and the full bit, you could try just blocking his number--there's a cheap service from the phone company that will do up to twelve numbers.

Also, do you think you could move to a different apt. within your building without it creating a lease frustration? I lived next to an ex once, and the apt. Manager let me move to a different two bedroom three floors down and on the other side of the building--which ended up backfireing as we could see each other right out the windows over the courtyared (you live, you learn...it wasn't this sort of a problem anyway).

Just some thoughts, hang in there!

May 31, 2005
10:45 am
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kc30
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Thanks Lolli- I misunderstood!! Still...chin up girl...it's not like you called him...he called you! Whatcha gonna do next time he calls?

This is what i think...in my experience, when my husband moved back in Dec, I really think he believed that he would be able to just do whatever he wanted, and was sort of shocked when I said NO, and made him step up and be the husband I expected. He went running back to the other woman, but still fully expected to be able to LIVE with me and come and go as he pleased!

He decided to "end it" when he was actually forced to step up to the plate in order to avoid having to be mature and responsible, but I don't really think he got that, when you say it's over, and I say it's over...GUESS WHAT! It's over.

He was truly shocked when I kicked him out, shocked when I told him not to come to my home every day, shocked when I changed the locks, shocked when I called the police when he wouldn't leave...he just thought he could keep calling the shots and controlling everything.

Yours is doing the same...says it's over but doesn't get what OVER means. It's an attempt to keep you from asking for too much...like a loving, healthy nurturing relationship. So really, what he wants is you, on a string, doing whatever HE wants, and not asking him for ANYTHING (hence...the "it's over") He says it's over so that he doesn't have to be a good boyfriend. But he keeps calling because he wants the "perks"...

Creep.

InPain...I believe the pathology is deep deep deep in an addict...a matter of survival. But I don't believe the manipulation is accidental or innocent...it may not be coldly calculated, but they KNOW what they are doing...they know what buttons to push. Why wouldn't they? It's always worked in the past with us...say the right thing, look the right way...a well timed apology said in just the right tone of voice....

I believe my husband has used, controlled and manipulated me for a very long time. I also believe that the times he's asked for another chance, and swore he would change, he meant it. The problem that he and I failed to acknowledge is that he was incapable of making the changes. He just doesn't have the equipment. So no matter how sincere he was...he could never step up and follow through. He can never be the man I fell in love with. He may never have been that man....I don't know yet what was real, it's all tainted.

But knowing that he is incapable of making those changes leaves me protected from even the most pitiful pleas...it doesn't matter what he says...he can't do it, so nothing will change.

kc

May 31, 2005
10:56 am
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lollipop3
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Exotic-----actually there is nowhere in the building for me to go...there are only 6 apartments (which are all taken) and I pay only $450 a month with heat included, in a nice neighborhood.....I ain't goin' nowhere! However, I have come to the conclusion that...I'm going to be fine. Yes, I'm hurt right now. I'll be hurt whether I'm here or there...but I'll be fine. I'll be hurt whether HE moves or not.....but whether he stays or goes....I'll be fine.

Kc----you are so right. He leaves when things get too tough for him. When he has to be responsible for his actions. When he has to DEAL with anything that goes against his manipulitive, controlling ways. He's been calling to test the waters and to get sympathy but NOT ONCE has he even attempted to apologize for his behavior. Apparently, he hasn't had to stew in his own juices long enough.

He comes from the school of....ignore it and it will go away. I wonder if he learned that from my father???? Just kidding.

Well, I'm sorry to tell ya pal, this one ain't goin' away!

Lolli

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