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Oh crap!-- Through_the_fire needs words
June 18, 2008
8:35 pm
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WizardofAus
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How do you establish trust?

For what it is worth, here are some thought starters.

First of all get really clear about your specific trust issue.

Trust is when you feel confident that either something good will happen or something bad will not happen.

Define for your current situation what that something is. Get clear about the consequences for you if your expectations are wrong and you are let down.

Example, my ex took $25k out of a joint equity account and left me to pay the interest. My strategy for regaining my trust about joint accounts is to make sure both parties have to sign....Better late than never!

Anyway do you get the idea? Trust is abstract. Your specific risks need to be defined.

Remember the old adage that what gets measured gets managed.
A promise not to drink is potentially a bit flakey. A promise that if you buy a breathalyser unit, he will submit for a test at dinner time each night is more likely to focus both your minds on keeping the promise.

In general, define clearly what you need to reestablish trust. Make sure you have a strategy in place if your trust should be betrayed again (an insurance policy; for instance, he might only visit rather than move in, so you do not have to chuck him out if it all falls apart again.) Get some way of measuring whether the promise is being kept or not. Don't agree to accept a level of trust that you do not feel confident in. If he refuses your breathalyser condition now, he will likely let you down later, anyway. So do not panic if he spits the dummy. Just hold firm to your boundaries. By tomorrow he may realise that you now mean what you say and, my oh my, how much does that change things.

You are entitled to put a high value on your trust. Otherwise you are not really being trusting so much as being gullible.

Hope that gives you some food for thought; and of course it is only my opinion.

Good luck.

June 18, 2008
9:18 pm
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marypoppins
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Fire,

Hmmm...trust..um...I've read about it in books and seen it in movies, but I don't know that I've had a relationship in which it existed. At least not consistently or in all areas.

But I think you and Brace Man are already on your way to rebuilding trust. You're talking. You're trying to understand one another. And there's definitely love and respect in your marriage.

Some of this is individual work. By understanding how Brace Man's slip affected you and what it triggered, you will grow and perhaps learn that what you might need is more trust in yourself, too. We really need to know that we will be okay no matter what happens. We must trust that we have the inner strength to take care of ourselves, even be on our own if that's what the situation requires.

You mentioned before that this was going to be an opportunity to learn and grow.

Take your time. You can process this in your own unique way. It may be uncomfortable for a while, or strained, but that's not horrible. It's just different.

Both of you share a strong desire to have a healthy marriage. One day at a time, as they say.

Peace to you both.

Mary

June 18, 2008
9:19 pm
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Anonymous
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Wiz, you rock! I might still be married with your insight! Maybe better I didnt have it...

June 18, 2008
9:31 pm
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Anonymous
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Fire, I think you´re having great conversations with h, really communicating, which I didnt have in my marriage. Looking at your situation I think I realize what my therapist said at the time about my issues with my xh. She said we were two trains going in the same direction (despite the terrible communication) BUT at different speeds.

As Mary said, one day at a time, remembering your h´s speed isnt gonna go as fast as you wish. Focus on you, what makes your vulnerable or strong... Make plans to meet him at every other train stop with a breadthlyser and some reward (if deserved), how about that?

June 19, 2008
7:48 am
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_anonymous
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Through the fire- Trust is a value like honesty. Either someone has that value or they dont.

This goes back to the problem us Codies have and that is we distort realty and want to control everyone and fix them. Like in your case you want to make him be trustworthy.

If a person is untrustworthy being dishonest, manipulative, lying and underhanded go hand in hand. These are deep rooted character flaws. Its not something that a third party can just come along with a magic wand and decide that a person needs to be honest, trustworthy etc. Like addicts we want quick answers. And it doesnt work that way.

If you want a man you can trust then find a man who is up and running. One who is honest and trustworthy by choice.

Its like saying you want a bird with 2 wings so it can fly then going out and getting a bird with one wing and then wasting all your time and efforts trying to figure out why it cant fly.

You dont need to rebuild trust. You didnt do anything wrong he did.

What are you going to be his mother and teach him how to be trustworthy like give him a reward if he is and punish him if he is not. Or is he a piece of clay you can mold into anything you want?

If trust is an important quality in a relationship then I would never choose an addict or alcoholic cause you are asking them to be something they arent capable of. It is almost like asking a baby not to poop in its diaper.

The person you have to trust is yourself. You have to believe what you see.

The pattern I have seen with addicts is that when they decide to use they dont use because of you or not because of you. If they know you are controlling they will go way the hell out of their way to hide it from you and do it behind your back. If you find them under the influence or confront them, they will tune you out if that doesnt work they will take their drugs somewhere else and use them usually around others who support their habit. Then when they turn up and you nag it reinforces their addiction and need to stay away from you. Then you think you did something wrong. Start to miss them and if your weak you will let them back in. If you are strong you will realize you have no control over addicts, they are toxic, and cut all ties to them.

June 19, 2008
8:37 am
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marypoppins
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(((Fire)))

June 19, 2008
8:42 am
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lovin life
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side note: me and a co-worker both just changed our mouse hands. we both happen to be left-handed, but have always moused like the rest of the world with our right hands. it has been a struggle to adjust to the left (reaching out for the mouse with my right hand the first few days), but amazingly i am getting used to it. and the tension is gone on my right side.

June 19, 2008
8:58 am
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(((((Fire)))))

Celtic

June 19, 2008
9:25 am
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autumn128
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(((((Fire)))))

Autumn

June 19, 2008
10:56 am
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through_the_fire
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I definitely hear you Destiny, but Brace Man is a person who will readily recognize his faults and say he's fucked up. Right now, he's embarrassed and humbled as all hell. He's telling his close family members about his slip. When his brother tried to minimize it a bit, he said --no it involved deception and things had definitely gotten out of hand, until he decided to put a stop to it. Just today he said if he was experiencing cravings he would be in trouble and need meetings or rehab. He's talking, bringing it up, not shoving it away. Also, he isn't rushing to try to have sex with me, to "make up", because we both know that would be being false.

For myself, every time I feel like controlling or over thinking things, I hear you guys saying "take care of yourself". And Mary, unlike other times in my life, I know I'm not dependent on Brace Man for anything I can't do for myself. I have power and decision making abilities that I thought I didn't have in the past (if you get that). I'm not stuck, nor would I ever be stuck, in a situation not to my liking.

He's sending out resumes, getting his occupational therapy started, researching teaching and other career possibilities, and taking care of himself, hopefully. When I asked him what he wanted as far as a job, he would like a position like mine. Full-time tenured community college prof. That's not impossible, but quite a shot in the dark, so I said that he should go for that, but also find whatever else floats his boat. It's up to him in this great big world. Not me. And I'm not going to buy the idea that "I want what you have and since I can't get that there's nothing." He's not been like that, but you know how us codies can buy into others violin strings. Nope. Not here. Not now.

I feel healthier mentally than I have in years, and while you don't know Brace Man, part of this health, has to do with my relationship with him.

I think this crisis will help sharpen the boundaries of what are his responsibilities for himself and what my responsibilities are to me.

And now, as per advice here, I've got to go for a walk and get some breakfast.

One day at a time, and taking care of me.

Fire

June 19, 2008
11:30 am
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marypoppins
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yeah, Fire!!! right on, baby!!

June 19, 2008
12:55 pm
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through_the_fire
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Thanks (((Mary)))

So on my walk and breakfast, i realized I'm a little shaky from all this. And just like other times when I've had an emotional upset, my stomach is funny and I have a headache. Part of me just wants to stay in bed reading today. I guess if that's what taking care of me is about that's fine. I also know that I have to guard against just retreating and hunkering down into small Fire-- the less powerful response to trouble, you know? The response learned from childhood: if i just hide over in this corner, well, who knows? Why don't I just try hiding in this corner? As a kid I did this so much in closets with kitty cats that my parents were just about to call the police when I emerged from hiding. It didn't occur to me before then to come out. Not malicious, just needing to go into the cave with the cat.

Iy's funny redirecting my mind to doing for myself and seeing what habits I've had for a long time.

Anyone know what i mean?

Fire

June 19, 2008
1:09 pm
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Martyn
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Hi Through....I am so glad that you are feeling better! I wanted you to know too, that I struggle through the same troubles you do. It is a day by day, fly by the seat of your britches.I just didn't want you to think that just because I told you my thought process, that YOU were the only one. My husband came home drunk last night. I didn't sit up to wait for him, I chanted my mantra of "I am a good person...worthy....and went to sleep instead of listening for his car doors. This morning, he guiltily told me that he was out drinking (he actually fell into a pond). I said well I guess when you get through with your denial, that you can figure that out for yourself. THEN he wanted to know WHY I didn't call and find out if he was okay......(I grinned to myself.....) and told him "Because I told you, I am NOT doing that anymore." Then I got the "You are not going to tell me what to do, how to do it, when to do it, or who I will talk to you about it". I kept my voice very calm and even and said..."Well, I guess that you will figure it out eventually then won't you?" I didn't bait him, didn't argue....I went about my own business. I just wanted to tell you this...because EVERY day is a choice and you might succeed, you might fail...but you keep getting up and letting go. Each human being is a master of their own fate by the choices that they make....including our alcoholic/drug addicts.
I have thought to much about you....and I am SO glad that you are feeling better....getting a gulp of freah air is a good thing.
((HUG))

June 19, 2008
1:58 pm
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Martyn
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I DID NOT MEAN I THOUGHT ABOUT YOU TO MUCH.....I MEANT I THOUGHT ABOUT YOU SO MUCH...eek! Hope you get to read my disclaimer here.....that would make me feel terrible if you thought that I did not care..... (((HUG)))

June 19, 2008
2:10 pm
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marypoppins
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(((Fire)))

I'm taking another teacher's class in a few minutes, but I wanted to say that spending the day in bed reading sounds like a great way to restore yourself. Perhaps it's not so much "small" Fire as it is "concentrated/condensed" Fire.

Mary

June 19, 2008
3:55 pm
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through_the_fire
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Hi (((Marty)), (((Hi Mary)))

Just to let you know Martyn, I'd figured it was so, not too-- As an English teacher I read right past minor typo boo boos. It's in my blood by now.

I tell you, Marty, good for you for not being vigilant and watchful over your husband. And notice how he expected that same old dance, expected you to check up on him to see if he was ok. A grown man! It's his job to make sure he's ok and to take responsibility!

Brace Man had a moment last night when we were discussing the slip. He said if he had been hellbent to use, he certainly could figure out how to score vicodin if he wanted to. The weird thing is, he had this strange little immature smile on his face. How fucking annoying. I said he sounded arrogant to me. He said, "you're right, I am way too arrogant. But I don't intend to go out there and do any of that."

Why did he have to introduce this type of uncertainty into his life? On top of recovering use of his hand, and on top of being unemployed? What an idiot!

Replacing a teacher, Mary, who no doubt will come back with a tan? I've experienced summer students as more diligent than the rest. Is that a myth?

I need to hide away a bit. Signs of physical stress all over the place. I did find out where an Al-anon meeting is in my town and I took out _Co-dependent No More_ from the library.

Fire

June 19, 2008
7:48 pm
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autumn128
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(((Fire)))

I love the line, "he had this strange little smile on his face. How fucking annoying." Funny.

He knows you are not going to let him off easy.

Be good to yourself. I'm worried about you.

Autumn

June 19, 2008
9:56 pm
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through_the_fire
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Autumn,

How'd you know that that's exactly what I needed to hear:

"He knows you are not going to let him off easy."

It's confusing, because as I continue from this, and decide to take care of myself and recover, I think, "Am I being too easy on him?" But, I've said everything there is to say. And I'm moving on. I guess it's odd to not try the usual-- control or the false sense that it's possible to control.

Thanks for your kindness....and I hope you're doing well.

Fire

June 19, 2008
10:20 pm
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Martyn
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I can't type worth a doodle sometimes....Thank you so much for your words., They are appreciated!

June 19, 2008
10:42 pm
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autumn128
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(((((Fire)))))

You are being so strong. You are handling this so well. You love him, he loves you. don't give up. but set your boundaries.

Autumn

June 20, 2008
9:43 am
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horsefly
this is off....be on this forum for years....not just since last year..we can email each other Now? that Nappy is long gone....
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((((Through)))) This whole thing is taking it's toll on you as it would anybody. I hope you know I was just pointing out a few things to you earlier. I do not know your whole history...... I cannot give proper advise. But I can support you in what you must be going through . It would number one drive me nuts to have my husband home from work as long as you have........then this. Yes, it was a slip and it was probably the deceit that is bugging you. Also due to it all ......you are set up to be the caretaker......how frustrating for you. You are very clear on all of this. Focus on yourself and hopefully braceman will be back at work soon. I think it is great that you two both have this religion. Buddha is wonderful. Hang in there, Love, horsefly

June 20, 2008
9:57 am
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through_the_fire
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Autumn, Horsefly, Marty,

Thanks (((Autumn)))... we do love each other, but it has to be and will be different from other relationships I've had. What has made Brace Man and I strong is that we talk to one another like we've never talked with anyone else. But that talk from my side is not going to be about fixing or watching him or being vigilant.

And (((Horsefly))) I cannot believe we've been together 24/7 for days. Last night at dinner, Brace Man and I were quiet. We're usually yabbering away. BM looked up at me, with a wry smile and said, "So how was your day?" That cracked me up.

When Brace man is in pain he gets to sorting stuff and grumbling about disorder. Last night when I was relaxing he started that and it just got on my nerves. I went into the room where he was and said for him to cut the tension, I wanted a mellow night. So he went into a little snit, "But why is this pile over here? and blah blah blah." I just looked him dead in the eye and said, "I am so stressed from what's been happening and you're going on about this piddling shit? You've got to be kidding me.' It was the only time I let him know this. Maybe I should have done so in a less confrontational situation, as it was manipulative on my part. But there it goes.

Shortly BM came out to me and put his arm around me, saying, "Don't be stressed, I'm ok. It was a brush, a definite, medium-sized brush. But I'm fine now." Then I talked about how he had to handle the situation from the get-go should he ever need pain meds again for something. The doctor has to know.

One friggin day at a time...

Fire

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