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"N"'s is there really such a thing? for garfield!
January 30, 2007
2:04 pm
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garfield9547
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hi Rev

I have missed posting one day and it feels like a week looking at the responses.

Well, I am going to respond to your thread first.

"Yes, there is deception involved, but I'm sorry...an emotionally healthy person will see through it. In fact, even unhealthy people see through it...but their neediness to believe in the person as being genuine is too overpowering. "

Well said. The deception involved here to me means I do not have a clue that I am being emotionally abused or i know but i do not want to know.

Rev

You said

"the guilt was too obvious to deny...she couldn't possibly try to wriggle out of any misbehaviour on this occasion, she couldn't possibly make herself out to be a paragon of virtue...the misunderstood "victim" this time...so she had to for once face up to her own guilt...something cracked and shattered...it was like watching ice melt...slowly but surely she faced up to her mistakes and her wrongdoing...and when she realised that the whole world wasn't going to crumble because of it...the ice continued to melt...she's still working things out...soem of the family will never forgive her...but they are not perfect either..none of us are...however...she's trying one step at a time to say sorry...in her own way. She'll never be perfect...but neither will any of us. "

Gosh this is so emotional for me to read. I get what you say. I feel like I have to respond to support you and I feel on the other hand I want to tell you about my father.

This is just what is starting to happen in my father's life. He CANNOT deny anymore. There is NO escape for him. Looks like this was a good thing for your mother. I hope the same for my father although I cannot consentrate on if things are going to work out for him or not. I just had to do this for far tooo long.

Rev

When i told my therapist after more than 2 years I am done, he said I have not dealt with my father figure.

I tried everything, but kept on like protecting him in ways thats irrational. The therapist said I cannot see my father as a whole. i either see him as bad or good.

Still working on this.

Well, see now I am talking about myself again. Shows me how much i relate to you and what you bring out in me.

OK

"So..in answer to your question...perhaps not so close...bad-feeling and insecurity got in the way of my mother feeling close to any of her sisters I think. The need to always be the best. "

Rev, this is me. Reality is your mother was not close to your aunt emotionally at all, but if you look at your words you would of desperately wanted them to be close.
You saw the pain caused by this in the family and somehow wanted to please the family and your mother.

"Thats another thing she just can't pretend to be any more...the plain truth is now all too obvious to everyone else in her life, so she can't cover it up...after all...a series of failures of the next generation...her children...saw to that"

Rev, you opened my eyes to allot of what is happening in my own family. My mother cannot deny anymore. My brother is 37 and not married after so many failed relationships and engagements. The same with my younger brother who is 30 this year and still cannot commit. My sister and me and the exposure of her being a perfect mother just all falls to pieces.

I agree that we cannot blame our parents, bc we are adults (or supposed to be) by now. Bc I do not see much change in my mother I still do not trust her. I cannot afford this. If she had changed like your mum did our relationship would of also changed and moved forward.

"...he played the "victim"...their relationship has evolved and changed many times over the years...it would be too long to explain all the changes it went through. it became a power-struggle...in the end neither won."

My mom played the victim. Now i realised that she also played a BIG part in this. I always felt so sorry for her and then after time I saw the whole picture. I get you here.

"When we were younger we all tried in our own way to counsel their marriage...but in the end, what finally healed the rift was when WE gave up counselling them and started to make OUR mistakes"

We did the same Rev. When we as chidren stopped they got divorced. They should of done this years ago. They should of never married in the first place..

"To see this man who was so useless at affection all through their courtship being so.... it made her bitter"

These are your word describing your fathers relationship emotionally with that of your mother. If I read these words it resemblance your ex to me.
He was useless at affection...

"It brings me back to this whole idea of NPD...I have read over and over and over again the document you gave...and it really does ring true...so so much. But to hate my mother and my ex for being N's just doesn't serve any purpose...if I still hated my mother today for the mistakes she made...then I wouldn't have been able to benefit from the good things I have received from her. To resent my ex for being an N only serves to allow him to have some control over me. I have long since gotten over any anger I felt about it. And there was a lot of anger"

Rev this is the point were we much get to. Its easier if your parents changed for the better, but if they stay abusive like mine I did not have a choice. I accept the responcibility as a adult with great pain as i wish i had mature parents, Just a dream I had to realise.

Rev

" think, the only way I would ever 100% believe that I was in a relationship with someone with a personality disorder, would be if a psychiatrist diagnosed my ex and sent me written confirmation of it! Even though I've read a lot of documentation on it and it all seems to be basically a description of him...it just seems like its too BIG for me to take in...its seems like the stuff of a movie script...it doesn't seem real. "

you do not need a psychiatrist to diagnose your ex. All you need as prove to you being in a emotionally abusive relationship with your ex or your parents is the way you are. If your ex or parents were healthy emotionally, you would be healthy emotionally. This is your proove (wrong spelling)

"I don't want to offend...I really don't, but I always thought that women who got into abusive relationships were these kind of meek little mousey women, eternal victims...and its just very hard to get my head around the fact that this REALLY did happen to me. It seems like too much to ask of myself, to actually take on board that I failed at fixing him...thats what it boils down to...thats where my unhealthyness is...I failed at fixing him... "

I get you here Rev. This means looking in the mirror and NOBODY wants to do this. Trust me, Gosh.

"They were both movies where there was this troubled young man, and his other half who fixed him just with love and devotion...well, I was brought up on those movies...I saw myself as liz taylor or doris day, fixing my troubled young man with love and devotion"

Rev looking back was this not the same feeling as trying to fix your mother? Or am i wrong?

Love

Garfield

January 30, 2007
2:19 pm
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garfield9547
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Worried_Dad

You said

"My response is

1) Yes, that is a common misperception.

2) You don't want to spread misinformation about such a vital topic.

3) To draw, as you did in the above quote, even the faintest association between mental status of a victim of domestic violence and the cause of domestic violence--is in and of itself a form of abuse and could in and of itself be injurious to some people who read it.

If you want to talk about it out back, great, but I think it is a serious mistake to things like that here on suppport threads where vulnerable persons might read it and be harmed.

Tell me what happened to you. You never open up emotionally and this is a problem for me. If you ONLY give advise and do not share your own experience its a problem

Tell me about your first wife. What was the relationship like? What happened?

Then go on and tell me what happend with your second failed relationship.

This would put more perspective as to where you stand emotionally as a person.

Are you able now after all your knowledge to be in a healthy relationship?

Give me the answer to the billion dollar question.

Garfield

January 30, 2007
2:35 pm
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garfield9547
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Kroika

You said

"
kroika
29-Jan-07

Worried_Dad 28-Jan-07

It's a very simple thought form, Garfield.
Q: What causes Abuse?
A; Abusers!
It's as simple as that.

WD, does that mean then, as a nurse, you would tell someone:
Q: What causes fever?
A: Germs! Simple as that.

You know that the remedy of choice depends on identifying precisely the infectious agent. Broad-spectrum antibiotics are all very well... unless a person is allergic. Antiviral meds are useless against bacterial agents. Etc.

Simplification is good in some cases when it helps to see the forest and not get distracted by trees. It's bad when it becomes oversimplification. "

YOU NAILED IT HERE

Its just soooooo well said. Thanks for this input. Sometimes i want to say something and just DO NOT have the right words.

I cannot agree more

Bevdee

you said

"So basically your perception does not allow you to agree? "

In a nutshell, well said and thanks.

January 30, 2007
2:40 pm
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Hi Garfield,

I'm Sorry that perception of me is: that I "never open up emotionally" and I'm also sorry that you see that as problematic.

"If you ONLY give advise and do not share your own experience its a problem." I'm sorry that you would see that as a problem.

But it is your problem.

As has been noted, there was a time when I talked about my experiences with abuse ..."incessantly" I think the SC said.

I've told the stories quite a few times.

Some of it is sketched in the first posts of the "Worried_Dad's Embassy" thread and the "Psychotherpay Cults" thread over in libs.

Most of what I do here at this site is NOT give advice, and in fact I have not given any advice on this thread.

The best place to hear personal details about me, and to get to know my emotional side any more is over in the libs side.

Your attacking tone here doesn't exactly inspire me to intimate sharing.

As far as "healthy relationships" go, like I said, my experience with Abusive relationships were exceptional--unusual.

Abusers are rare compared to normal people. For me, it would be like less than 10%

January 30, 2007
2:58 pm
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Garfield,

I'm glad my analogy resonated with you.

WD,

I can understand that you feel an "attacking tone" (as you perceive it) doesn't inspire you to intimate sharing.

May I point out that when you say things like "It's a very simple thought form, Garfield...." and proceed with your oversimplified Q & A format, it comes across as condescending.

It was a condescending statement similar to that which set me off all those months ago on another thread which shall remain nameless (wink wink).

As you know, since then and with SC's help, I have laboured to see the "geek do-gooder" in you and am no longer so frequently triggered by your "ways". So I offer this feedback about how you come across as condescending, in the spirit of believing you really would try to change that if you were more aware of it.

carry on all.

with respect and regards, kroika

January 30, 2007
3:14 pm
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horsefly
this is off....be on this forum for years....not just since last year..we can email each other Now? that Nappy is long gone....
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Don"t want to say it and I hate to be diplomatic,,But I am vulnerable right now, but each and everyone of you answers alot of my questions. That is how I looked into this tread...Figuring stuff out for myself.....Everyone one of you have much to offer, Thankyou, horsefly

January 30, 2007
3:17 pm
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Wdad

Not too long ago on another thread you said you are sad. It seems like when you become active on this forum, you try to engage in debate. I wonder if there is a connection?

I have noticed that when anyone talks about shedding victimisation, you have a response, and from where I sit, it appears that you might be angry sometimes.

You know, when I first left Lucifer and learned about victimisation? It was a relief to let go of the belief system the abuser (and from childhood, my mother) instilled in me- that I deserved it. What a relief! So I wallowed in that for a long time. My final word on any complex situation was a lot like yours. I'm finally able to see shades of gray - in regards to myself.

I believe it is difficult for most men to talk about their feelings, for various reasons. Conditioning, society, etc. And it must be especially difficult to have been on the receiving end of rage turned physical. Sometimes people just don't believe that a woman would abuse a man, or I should say they don't want to believe it. Conditioning, society, perceptions of masculinity. Yet, I think on how difficult it must have been for you if you never struck back when you were struck. I know how helpless and angry I felt when I didn't fight back.

If you want to talk about it, I bet folks would listen. It may be too time consuming to pull up five years of old threads, but I observe and experience a lot of support here. Like if you wanted to start talking about your present self.

Be easy on yourself

Bevdee

January 30, 2007
3:26 pm
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Hi Kroiksters,

Recall what inspired me to post here to begin with. I was responding to some pretty powerful "advice" that was being given.

Umm, that wasn't condescension. Condescension implies a perception of inferiority.

That was me trying to explain that what was being portrayed as a very complex thing is actually exceedingly, brain-bustingly simple.

I stand by the orthodox viewpoint: Victims of abuse would not exist if it were not for abusers. That is where the responsibility lies and where it must be placed.

I suggest that people need to allow that argument--even correction--even lecturing does not imply inferiority--it's just information, after all.

Hi horsefly,

If you have been victimized, I recommend that you concentrate on healing yourself--and not spend one minute blaming yourself.

January 30, 2007
11:38 pm
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horsefly
this is off....be on this forum for years....not just since last year..we can email each other Now? that Nappy is long gone....
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Thanks Woried Dad,,horsefly

January 30, 2007
11:53 pm
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horsefly
this is off....be on this forum for years....not just since last year..we can email each other Now? that Nappy is long gone....
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If I dare add my 2cents worth. You do have to understand why you got involved, like me so long and you have to have that knowlege to heal,,After that you just need to move on and seek you own kind of help.. Everyone is different with a different history....I have had alot of relationships..good and bad....when you get hit by a true charmer/abusor you don't even know what is happening until after the fact..But dwelling on this can only intensify things for me.....so getting may wounds healed at this point is the best I can do...horsefly

January 31, 2007
12:09 am
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Hi horsefly,

Anyone who goes the full course with a talented abuser is going to come out of it worse for wear.

I think studying the process in retrospect is great. And I think it is important to counter the messages, the brainwashing, even the social stigmas and urban mythology that says things like

You provoked it.

You deserved it.

You brought it on yourself.

You gave as good as you got.

You must have enjoyed it.

Why didn't you just leave.

This happened because something is wrong with you.

And so on.

I understand what happened to *me,* and I reserve the right to speak for me.

And Every story is a little bit different.

Each of us has to tell our own story--You can interpret another person's story, but that's one level removed from the source.

January 31, 2007
12:10 am
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Horsefly

You may dare.

I think the bottom line for someone being physically abused is to get out.

Worry about the underlying stuff later. Having an understanding of an abuser is not going to change the abuser. You have to get out.

Bevdee

January 31, 2007
12:27 am
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Worried_Dad
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Exactly, Bevdee.

A person who is being victimized doesn't mainly "need" to have a deep understanding of exactly how and why they are being destroyed.

Step one is to leave the burning building.

January 31, 2007
12:31 am
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WDad

I absolutely agree!!

January 31, 2007
12:42 am
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Hi Bevdee,

Yes, you are correct. It's not that I debate for the heck of it. This particular issue is...ooh, ooh, ooh.
For me, it is the congruence of

1) My bestest expertise and duty implied by that.

and

2) Where it really, really hurts. Ouch ouch ouch ouch ouch.

I am easily triggered. I can couch my ...whatever it is...outrage, maybe, in good science, but the fact is I am coated from head to toe with hair triggers. I've deactivated 143 of the 11,000 triggers.

I suppose it is about my particular experiences and also the meaning I have chosen to give those experiences. It is going to be a while before I can be serene about this material. Like about 500 years, I think.

It's the price I pay for becoming abuse proof. By this means I have been able to rescue myself from some very serious natural consequences of the kind of abuse I went through. Unfortunately, everyone around me also pays a price for it.

Maybe I should try to tell about it again. It's such a depressing story though. With a depressing ending.

January 31, 2007
1:01 am
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Hi Bevdee,

Maybe part of my militancy is about: I know I was a healthier, more whole person before I met the destroyer. I really believe that I lost some things that I can never get back.

I wouldn't want anyone to make the same mistakes I did. And I particularly wouldn't want anyone to recommend that someone make the same mistakes that I did.

Because the consequences, as far as I can tell, are more or less permanent.

January 31, 2007
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Wdad

"I am easily triggered. I can couch my ...whatever it is...outrage, maybe, in good science, but the fact is I am coated from head to toe with hair triggers. I've deactivated 143 of the 11,000 triggers."

Oh baby!! I know this well. It seems like I have a bottomless well of triggers.

"It's the price I pay for becoming abuse proof." I went for four years without a date or anything!!, because I did not trust my judgement. It was really a good time out for me. Everyone IS different, and everyone has different healing times, but it was a good start for me. Trust!! I couldn't. And, many of those good people I thought were my friends would not or could not understand me.

"Unfortunately, everyone around me also pays a price for it." Been there, too. I might tell about it someday.

Someone on the other side asked me about the abuse and how I got out. I don't have the energy to muster it up right now. Other stuff keeps popping up in that damned well. It takes alot of energy.

What I want do when I finally write it all out is to examine (and applaud) my progress - I tend to blame myself. I am my own worst critic.

January 31, 2007
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Wdad

"Because the consequences, as far as I can tell, are more or less permanent."

Which consequences do you mean?

January 31, 2007
5:40 am
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Hi everyone,

I checked back in on this thread for teh first time since it started tonight and oh, my... there has been a lot posted.

And I started cringeing as I scrolled down because I thought that it might have devolved into real friction - I am so, so pleased that despite some healthy disagreement, it hasn't.

It took me a long time to even say out loud that my last relationship was abusive - which it was. Verbally, emotionally - and if not physically while we were standing upright he certainly had some interesting ideas about "playful" sex towards the end.

WD nailed it - I was a "prize" when he met me - vivacious, socially at ease - a lot of the things that I found out later he coveted and had real difficulty with.

There was a charm assault at teh beginning - that came with a whole lot of overwhelming attention. Rev is right too - I did see through it. If not through it at least I felt the breeze from the red flags flapping in my face.

And I pushed through - because I needed that validation. I did. I was really lost at the time and carrying a good deal of unresolved shame beneath the nice wrapping.

Could I possibly have imagined how warped he was/is? Nope. I really couldn't. And I hung on past bigger red flags because on some level I felt taht there had to be some disconnect - how could this charming man who had been so smitten really mean to be doing/saying teh things he did. I, me, I must have done something to change his mind that could be fixed, remedied or taken back.

There really are people so abusive and warped out there that we simply cannot fathom the things they do - the way they think. You can't ever be "prepared" for a meteorite hitting your house in the middle of the night. Based on my previous relationships, I had no inkling that his true colors would be so far outside the "normal" spectrum.

But...

While I didn't invite his behavior - at some point I did allow it. There came a point where there was clearly no misunderstanding - but while I didn't invite the abuse - I did allow it. I wasn't physically at risk, financially dependent, or socially isolated - and yet I hung in there. And I wouldn't have done that had my self esteem been in better shape and had he not tapped into a big well of shame that was lying right near the surface.

If his treatment of me and my opinion of myself hadn't been somewhet in line I would have walked away, head held high at the first real indignity. And it was a doozie. I didn't.

WD, I am still on a dating time out. Am scared %^$#less that I won't be able to trust again. I do know, after some kickass therapy and a good life-overhaul that I won't ever be in the position that I was with him again. And the old stuff, the family stuff, the childhood wounds (which were gaping - alcoholic mother, family pretended it wasn't happening - don't ever have or talk about feelings was the family motto) might not have been addressed so thoroughly had things with him not come to the point that they did.

I was a wreck. But my entire life sort of came to a head. I had to deal, really deal, with the part of -me- that had "allowed it," and hung in there. The question wasn't "why did he do that" but "why did I let him" and the great news was that I was driving the boat on that one and was willing to put in teh hard work to find the answers.

Do I wonder/worry whether I'll ever skip through fields of dasies in blissful new uncomplicated love again? You betcha. But for the first time in my life I'm happy sitting reading a book on a nice patch of grass all alone. Before my relationship with the son of satan, I don't know whether that was the case. I'm almost certain that it wasn't.

This is a great thread - I'm grateful for all the healthy debate.

January 31, 2007
8:19 am
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P.S. Found Sam's site about a year ago, right before I initiated NC. It was chiling - and hard to realise that he was a walking definition of classic narcissism. But it was the beginning of really understanding that I didn't "cause" his behavior -and that there would never, ever be a time when I was dealing with a reasonable adult who was willing to communicate like a reasonable adult. The saddest thing, for me, is the concept that there are folks living with or married to narcissists out there - or dealing with the aftermath, who don't know about the disorder and still think that the N's behavior is their fault.

Hugs,

H.

January 31, 2007
9:01 am
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Wdad

"I really believe that I lost some things that I can never get back."

I had this fear too. And I mourned the loss. What happened though was I got some other things. Some seeds that never grew, even before the worst abusive relationship in my life, are budding now.

January 31, 2007
10:29 am
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horsefly
this is off....be on this forum for years....not just since last year..we can email each other Now? that Nappy is long gone....
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Healintime, That is how it all happened to me...I found out he was a N..one day I just push up narcissist on the computer...Then it all started making sense, what he was ...chilled me to the bone.....I was suspecting this from somthing I saw on tv...I was horrify...Next I needed help for myself. So I read up and that is when I discovered I was COCOCOdependent....His behavior was so odd and very peculiar, yet progresively...disturbing...I had this encounter for nearly 10yrs. So I guess you would say I just got use to it....Until I snapped because I didn't know who I was anymore...I was used up...So once you know you cannot not know,,,,,,I am dealing with the aftermath now......And Beevee I don't think they are things I will ever get back either,,,hopefully one day I can replace them though....horsefly

January 31, 2007
10:46 am
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horsefly
this is off....be on this forum for years....not just since last year..we can email each other Now? that Nappy is long gone....
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Thank you everyone for reminding me not to accept the blame...He has ingrained in me for along time that I was the crazy one..Funny I was the one with all the freinds and he had none..I use to feel sorry for him..He said he felt sorry for me all the time and that use to really piss me off. I would why? I am just sick of the whole the whole mess...horsefly

January 31, 2007
6:14 pm
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It comes back to me now.

I was in a group.

I had just realized that what I was in the thick of with the destroyer was an "abusive relationship." Pretty nasty one too. My child had just been abducted. I was so darn traumatized I was in shock. I simply could not believe how bizarre my life had become. I really needed to talk about what was going on.

And the therapist said "You don't need to talk about what happened. The important thing is: why did you choose an abusive relationship?"

January 31, 2007
7:07 pm
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WD,

I'm sorry - that sounds awful. Sounds like you had a lot to talk about in that meeting and I'm sure that, in the beginning, you didn't "choose" what your relationship had by that point become.

I didn't "choose" the man who was spitting venom at me by the end on a regular basis. Who was messing with my mind, interfering with my friendships, trying to create his own reality by manipulations and taking big swipes at what was left of my self-esteem. I "chose" to get to know a charming, intelligent, courteous, attractive man who se company I enjoyed. Had teh second guy shown up to our first dinner, I would have left the table and gone home.

I was in a blaming, angry place for a long time. It has bene nearly two years since I saw him in person. I started learning about narcissism and codependency about the same time - and found out that my relationship with him was by no means the only one in my life that was out of whack, thanks to a good dose of codependency.

I didn't "choose" an abusive narcissist. He chose me. But I'm guessing that it was for a reason - and part of that reason was that he had a radar for someof my insecurities. A woman with a better sense of self might have walked away as soon as teh shenannigans started.

And the worst thing is that it's a downward spiral - the longer you're with a narcissist the more crazy you think you are, the worse you feel about yourself, the more traumatised you are and the more you think that you're "stuck" with the insanity.

It's a toughy. I didn't choose my abuser and I didn't want the abuse - but I had no idea about boundaries - none. The things that made me a little uncomfortable in the beginning would be screaming red flags nowadays.

Hugs,

H.

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