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No more "The Lesbian" post, just JJ
June 2, 2004
12:24 am
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jjnynj
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The last several replies have been truly supportive. Now that I've outed myself I'm left only with THe issue.

Yes, I've been involved with a wealthy, attracrtive, accomplished woman for three years.
Quite taken with her power I'd been wined, dined and charmed to oblivion.
I've let her control me to the point of my no longer knowing who I am. What my needs have been.
Lots of lies and unkept promises while giving her all the space in the world to do so. She's either needed the time for her son, family or work. Who was I to question those needs. That has been until realizing that nothing has ever been worked out with me in mind. How groo that I've made up excuses for her while all the while nothing being done in my behalf.
Still I've missed her pretty lies and dreams I'd been able to make out of them.

JJ

June 2, 2004
1:07 am
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Hey jj

I think the most painful part is becoming aware that all those dreams are just that, and can never become a reality.

It's perfectly normal to build dreams with somebody you care about. There's nothing abnormal or stupid or silly or naiive about that. All of us do that. Building dreams is such a big part of a relationship.

I think coming to the realization that identity got lost someplace is like running full speed into a Mack Truck.

I'm so sorry for what you are going through.

hugs

free

June 3, 2004
12:59 pm
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It hurts to wake up one day and find out that what you thought was happening between you and your partner was a "dream". I hope in some way you are thankful to have woken up.

I spent years, lots of them, in a relationship that was my little dream. I thought things would change, and we would just live together happily ever after. I woke up when things changed, and got worse than ever!

It has been a long, hard road for me, waking from this dream. At the same time, I'm so glad I did. I don't know if you've seen any of the threads where I've talked about some of the challenges I have to face, change being the BIG one! At the same time, although I am afraid, and sometimes lonely, I am learning to believe in myself.

I guess what I'm trying to say to you, JJ is that this woman of class saw something in you that was up to her standard. So, there must be some very unique things about you. I can tell from reading the things you have shared that you are an intelligent and caring person. I can tell that someone will one day be very fortunate to have you by her side.

When things get rough, I hope you will take the time to read what I said, and recognize it as the truth, because that's what it is.

Ren'ai

June 3, 2004
10:37 pm
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Ren'ai...aren't you lovely to have shared that I too may be of some worth.It's been hard to imagine of late.
Have been feeling more that I was probably easy pickings for her need to be admired.

JJ

June 3, 2004
10:44 pm
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HI JJ,

Sadly abuse happens in any and all types of relationships.

However, you do not need to tolerate it or accept it. Recognize it for what is really is - abuse, and move on.

I'm sorry you are going through this. You come across as a warm and loving person. Someone out there would be lucky to call you their partner. Take some time to realize what it is you are really wanting in a relationship, work on yourself and GO!

Love,

Zinnie

June 3, 2004
11:31 pm
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Wow, thanks to you too Zinnie.
Who knows, possibly one day soon enough I may be able to see my self as such and not solely "easy pickngs".

JJ

June 4, 2004
2:58 pm
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Hi JJ,

Hope you are having a good day today. From some of what you have said, it seems like you have been feeling pretty sad, mostly about yourself.

Not long ago I was going through a very hard time. I went to a close friend to talk about it. I was crying my head off and he sat patiently, just listening. When I was done, his only response was "Okay. Tell me what you need." It was the most welcome gesture I had received in a very long time.

So, in the effort to pay it forward, JJ, please tell us here, "What do you need?" I think everyone here is willing to do what they can.

Ren'ai

June 5, 2004
10:59 am
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Haven't heard from you, JJ. Just want you to know that you are in my thoughts.

R.

June 5, 2004
12:31 pm
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JJ,

Let me make sure I'm hearng right.

So the woman has an excessive need for admiration? And she has no consideration for your needs and feelings? And she is dishonest or manipulative?

Did you get involved quickly? Is she sexually jealous? Does she demand all of your attention?

Does she insult you, humiliate you, or hit you?

June 5, 2004
10:00 pm
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Worried_Dad

Yes, yes and yes. She came on to me like gangbusters at first then the relationship became solely about her once she had me.

A master (mistress) at sales she has woven myself and another woman in her web of heart breaking tales.

Though she has lied and cheated on me repeatedly she can't bear the thought of my being with someone else.

There have been times I"VE wanted to give her a good wallop. She's never laid a hand on me.

Extremely well read.
Could win the olympics with that vocabulary. Quite well versed in the most subtle put downs and humiliations.

This is now the longest time (3 months) I've gone not returning her calls, responding to gifts or emails since I'd found her with some one else.
She insists every time it's some great mistake when I catch her in one of her fantastic adventures. That she's lost with out me

Still ther are times (like today) that I really feel love or is it pitty for this woman. I know that she's had a life from hell growing up though I've had one because of that.

JJ

June 5, 2004
10:57 pm
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I had girlfriend…using me, controlling and abusing physically and mentally. We survived together 5 years. When we were together- everything felt so reasonable. Took me a years to understand what was happening. The hard part about this type or relationships is that it hard to replace them. It was grate feeling, and I know- I will not have ever again. & years later- I still remember everything. But- I am glad I got out and if I had a chance to have her back, I would not take it. I also dating men exclusively, because I feel spiritually guilty for what I done. Not to make you feel guilty in any way- I just decided- it was not right for me. But I feel for you and hope things will get better. If you can- try to find better relationships.

June 6, 2004
12:10 am
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It's those emotional injuries that have been the hardest for me to get over. I didn't realize it at the time but I let it wear away at my self-esteem until I was depressed, suicidal, and nearly non-functional.

JJ, if you haven't already, could you consider posting on the thread where you say something you like about yourself? I know that you are a very special person. To have managed not to contact her shows tremendous strength. To have resisted the urge to hit her when she was humiliating you takes tremendous self-discipline. Frankly, if I wasn't already spoken for, I might be trying to hit on you!

(I could, however, "introduce" you to some friends, if you are ready to hit the dating scene again!)

Stay strong. Keep in touch!

Ren'ai

June 7, 2004
9:17 am
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Renai,

How very flattering. Certainly can use a bit of that.

There is a lovely person, a real, caring and available person in my midst.

It's "time" I need before I take up with anyone. Wouldn't want a soul to catch any of this toxicity that I'm sure I haven't yet recovered from.

JJ

June 7, 2004
11:18 am
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Hey, JJ!

If this caring person feels right to you in your heart, don't wait. If I had waited until I wasn't toxic anymore, I would have missed out on the love of my life. Part of what makes our relationship so beautiful is that we are able to help each other work through things that make us toxic. She says we are spring boards for each other and it is very true. We learn from each other every minute we are together.

This could be yours, if or when you are willing to take a chance.

Glad to hear from you!

Ren'ai

June 7, 2004
11:47 am
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Renai

She was an acutally has been there throughout all of this insanity.
She's told me "she's been waiting".

I seem to learn more and more about her as a real person as I de-tox from the other.

All of what you've just shared with me is so beautifully true about this posibillity.

There's a part of me that IS still druged by the other. What a rush she to come down off of.

I am however putting my heart and soul into learning to be loved...by her.

Bless your heart.

June 7, 2004
2:07 pm
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JJ,

I would like to share some information with you about my last serious relationship. It was not at all positive. Although I loved my partner deeply, she did not love me, at least, not the way I loved her. I never believed she loved me because I didn't love myself.

There was a lot of imbalance and abuse in the relationship. Not much physical abuse, but emotional abuse and some sexual things that were pretty uncool. There were lots of mean things that were said to me. I did my share of mean things in return when I gave up on "love 'em 'til they change". You know that's classic codependent behavior. The amazing thing is that my soulmate was also with me through the better part of all this mess, we just didn't know we were in love yet!

I had been out of this relationship for a long time, but still connected to my ex in many ways. I think there was a part of me that still kept hoping, or you know, that peace-keeper impulse where we codep. want to fix everything and don't want to have anyone mad at us.

After a while, I started to realize that there were a lot of really good things about me that my ex never paid any attention to. I took very good care of her. I took care of her child. In fact, as with all us codep. I took better care of her than I did myself. I began to admire the fact that other women (and men) were attracted to me. I started to realize that I was no less valuable than anyone else in the world. I started to enjoy getting dressed up, looking good, flirting, living my life in a way that felt completely free. I could date who I wanted, be sexually intimate with anyone I wanted, and I didn't have to walk on eggshells anymore.

Then I came into a very difficult time. I don't want to go into details, but I was barely hanging on, and I felt so empty and angry. I felt angry because I had always worked very hard to have people in my life that I could depend on in a crisis. I didn't realize that during my relationship with my ex, my support system had been getting smaller and smaller until I was in crisis and I had no where to turn.

My soulmate had to hear all about how angry I was that I had no one to talk to or ask to hold me. She listened patiently and said nothing.

About a week later we got together to have a couple of beers and visit. She said she would like to hug me if I wanted. I stayed in her arms for a very long time and when I looked up at her, we kissed. In that instant I knew this was the person I had been waiting for all of my life. And oddly enough, in my journal, I had written about her more than once, and said that I knew one day we would be together. I had written those things so long before that I had forgotten about them until after that day we finally kissed each other. I looked back through my journals, 3 in all and found entries about her in all of them.

Since I have been with her I have not once ever wondered if she loves me. I know she loves me. I know it the way I know the sun will rise and set. I have never felt so beautiful, vibrant, sexy, special, or loveable in my entire life. She brings out the very best in me while helping me heal and somehow I do the same for her.

If this woman in your life is willing to wait, and you need time, do whatever you need to do to get yourself into a space where you can accept her love as true and real. This is the key for us codep., accepting love, not giving it. Accepting love as true and honest means being very vulnerable and trusting of the other person involved. That's why we codep.'s would rather give love than receive it. We don't feel as likely to get hurt if we are doing the giving.

The fact that this woman is willing to wait for you tells me that she is really someone special, and that you must be as well.

I see some very beautiful things ahead for you, JJ.

Ren'ai

June 7, 2004
4:45 pm
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"my relationship with my ex, my support system had been getting smaller and smaller until I was in crisis and I had no where to turn".
This statement is precisely what has me holding out from her latest antics.

I've always been a very social person. One that makes friends easily. Having people who have been so supportive of me "be too busy" all of a sudden is a real eye opener. Though the other had done a good job of charming the hell out of them too in the beginning.

Giving for fear of receiving I know quite well. I had in fact sought therapy at the start of this relationship because of receiving fear. Trouble was it was more talk and material thing than good honest love and emmotion.

Thank you for "giving" so much of YOUR story to me.
The new, not so new woman, is night and day in comparison. Her loving looks at me are the only ones I've known by giving to another. In fact sometimes I'm concerned we're both co-dep. What would that be like. Two caretakers. I'm going with it none the less.
Hate that what's her face would always say that she and I would end up together anyway to counter act some shitty thing she had just done.
Would be grat to obliterate her from my/our psyche for once and for all.

JJ

June 7, 2004
5:05 pm
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JJ,

One lesson I learned, and it felt really good, was that when it was over with my ex, it was OVER. It was like concrete solidifying. It was just done, and there was no undoing it. Your ex might want you back. You might go through a phase where you think you can go back. Don't worry. It won't happen. You already know too much. Her old tricks don't work anymore and will only end up pissing you off, or making you laugh.

I, too, have thought about the possibility that my partner is codependent, so I had to giggle when I saw you had written that. I worried about it for the first week or so, and then I made yet another valuable discovery. When I give to her, it can make her uncomfortable. As a result, it forces her to become more vulnerable and open towards me. If she is resistant when I want to do something for her, we talk it out.

When she gives to me, it can make me uncomfortable, but it forces me to be more vulnerable and open to her. Because of how we both are, it is making us face our codependency and truly have a chance to heal.

Think about it! If you were in a relationship with another "taker", and you're still a "giver", well, you're just doing what you've always done. No changes in the patterns. I'm starting to wonder if I could have ever begun such a dramatic process of healing and learning if I'd ended up with someone who was not a giver.

I can't tell you how touched, and yet flipped out I was the first time she brought me breakfast in bed. Or gave me a back rub. Or made love to me without worrying about whether or not she was going to get what she wanted. Or looked into my eyes and said I was the most beautiful thing she'd ever seen. Or told me how much she loved me as her tears fell from her cheeks onto my face and mouth. I know it sounds corny, but it's true! (And so romantic, yeah?)

My relationship with her makes me work hard to face and overcome my codependency. And it feels really good!

Ren'ai

P.S. You know you don't have to thank me for "giving" to you. I'm a codependent. I want to thank you for letting me give to you, right? lol!!!

June 7, 2004
10:47 pm
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Well then I'll thank the great good force of whatever that 's having you share these timely experiences with me.

I nott in a place where could refer to her as an "ex". Always keeping me hanging with an expectation of someday. Then there was always a major tale of woe in her behalf or some astounding pacifier for me.

Come tio think of it, was it just the most remarkable sex O've ever had that I need closurer from. Girlie girl that I can be I hadn't realized it was more about her prowess, gymnastics.

This whole seperation appears to be coming in stages. First it was the fantacy of what could have been between us I mourned. Now I think I'm actually mourning the chaos. It kept me busy.

JJ

June 7, 2004
11:18 pm
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JJ,

I understand you can't refer to her as your ex yet, but I can, because I can see that is what she is. It won't be long before you realize this is true.

Regarding "someday", what happens if you get run over by a bus or she gets struck by lightening? If she died tonight, what would you have left from your relationship with her? I don't see much there, except for memories, and that's all you have already is memories.

As far as remarkable sex goes, I hope you aren't shy because I'm just going to put this out there. An orgasm is an orgasm. Love makes all the difference. I had no idea that making love means exactly that, MAKING LOVE! Everything sexual I ever did before I met my partner was just that. Sex. With my partner, we make love. I can feel the love flowing through us. There is a real energy exchange that happens. It is the most wonderful feeling I have ever experienced. I would trade all the sexual experiences I've ever had for one minute in her arms. Love is really the most powerful thing that exists. (And I'm a "girlie-girl, too, by the way!)

I love the feel of her kiss. The way she holds me. The softness of her hair. The smell of her skin. The sweet taste of her mouth. I love that she can make me get goosebumps while making me sweat at the same time. I love to inhale while she exhales when we kiss, breathing her into me. It's like a spiritual drug. It is the finest thing I have ever known.

What I'm describing is real. It is very intimate. It's not easy to describe or discuss. I think there are not many people who ever love this way, so I feel very blessed. I believe you can look forward to this when you are ready to let go of the old and move on to someone new.

Everyone in the world deserves to be loved the way I am loved. Move through the stages of your separation as you need to, and keep your heart open. Love is "waiting" for you!

Ren'ai

June 8, 2004
9:23 am
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That one brought tears to my eyes.

I loved my "ex"in that way.
Trouble was I guess she was performeing. Besides being quite accomplished in the financial world she had also studied theater.

She would write cards & letters to me with words as beautiful as those you've just written. In fact it WAS her writting that had me from "hello".

It all looked so good on paper. I have to remind myself it's not what a person says it's what a person does.

My new relationship looks at me that way when were together. It's almost like a mirror at those times. Guess I'll have to stop seeing myself before I let it sink in.

Guess there's still more to heal...
I would be sad if that life of hers were to end. I'd always seen her as alost little girl, lying and hiding her way through life.

You've really gotten to me on this last reply.

JJ

June 8, 2004
11:14 pm
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JJ,

I'm sorry if I made things harder for you with the things I said. I understand what you are saying about seeing your "ex" as a "lost little girl". However, I can also see in what you've written that you are aware that she is able to use lots negative things in order to get her needs met. There's just no way to survive that degree of imbalance in a relationship.

When you say this new woman looks at you the way you used to look at your ex, and then went on to say "I have to stop seeing myself before I let it sink in" it made me think of something I wrote to my partner last night. I wrote that I love looking at myself through her eyes because I never fail to feel beautiful and loved. When I see myself the way she sees me, that is when I know how truly special I am.

JJ, my hope for you is that the next time this new woman looks at you "that way", you will shift your perspective and take a minute to see what she is seeing. Then you will know how beautiful and lovable you really are.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Ren'ai

June 9, 2004
9:59 am
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Just went over some previous posts and found one where I'd said "I needed time before I truly take up with someone new". Who am I kidding she and I are quite taken up with eachother.

Her hair isn't as soft her eyes aren't as blue. Nor is she as experienced (an understatement) with how to proceed during those smoldering moments.
Though smolder she does and a quick learn.

A novice having been married to the same man for close to thirty years.
A new role for me to take the lead since I often lean more towards the damsel to destress.

Thinking of what I'd just read got me through her calling me yesterday. It was right after writting back to you. It was the first time actually hearing eachothers voices for months. I just said "I have nothing to say'. Still, it goes through me like lightening and I know she knows it.

You Renai, who ever and where ever you are, have been a good coach through what you've been sharing.It appears you have survived your share of hell.
All the more an inspiration.

JJ

June 9, 2004
11:04 am
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Okay, JJ, I have some things to ask of you, if you are willing.

Can you try to look at yourself through your new lovers eyes? (I noticed you made no mention of that in your new post to me and I'm guessing it's because on a conscious or unconscious level it makes you uncomfortable to think about doing that.)

When your new lover touches you, what does it feel like to your heart? How is it different, knowing that the love she expresses is real vs. the artificial love you have been given by your ex?

When you look into your new lover's eyes, what do you see? More importantly, who do you see?

Let me tell you about my lover's eyes. They are blue, sometimes, like a turquoise sea. They are gray, sometimes, like a thunderstorm brewing. When I look into her eyes, I can see layer after layer of color from blue so light it's almost white, to grays so dark it is almost black. Her eyes are the window to her soul, and when I look into them, what I see is how much she loves me.

I think, though your ex's eyes may be bluer, you have not seen genuine love in them before.

The next time you are with your new lover, look into her eyes and memorize the detail, expression, and emotion. I'm hoping you will never look into her eyes the same way again!

My partner is also "inexperienced." It makes no difference to me, though, because no matter what we do, the love is real. I am satisfied every time she touches me because of how she fills my heart and inspires my body. She makes me want to teach, show, demonstrate, and allow her explorations of me freely. I have never been so comfortable with a lover before. I would also say that all the hell I have experienced in my life is worth the rewards I reap today! And what makes it really special is I KNOW I deserve the good things I have now!

Hope you are having a good day!

Ren'ai

June 10, 2004
10:19 am
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Hi JJ.

Thinking about you and wishing you a peaceful day.

Ren'ai

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